The Ethics of Keeping Fish: An "Unnatural Environment?": Please Comment
Alexprice
Fellow Cichlidites:
I am sure I have shared the ups and downs of having acquarium fish with many
fellow hobbyists on this board. Over the past 8 years I have invested a
significant amount of time and money tending to these magnificent creatures.
More recently, though, I have begun to question MY OWN ethics regarding this
hobby. As this newsgroup is dedicated to the aid and furtherance of cichlid
keeping as a hobby for its members - I thought it would be a good forum for
well-thought out feedback on the following issue (bear with me, I tried to make
it succinct) :
Nature has provided fish with a perfect environment in which the live and
thrive. An environment which has allowed evolutionary processes to take place,
thus creating the wonderful attributes of the fish we appreciate so much every
day.
Our need to have such fish on display has taken them from their natural
environment and placed them within a confined, contrived and unnatural
existance, contrary to our best attempts! Reasons why I feel this way:
1) They practically beg to be fed each time I approach the tank. I would not
say this behavior is peculiar to my tank!! Possibly out of boredom they swim
back and forth trying to get me to toss some tasty morsels into the tank.
2) Many genus/species of fish show attributes of being social animals and
having numerous social roles that they exhibit in their natural environment (ie
schooling, mating, fry tendering). Unfortunately, due to their acquarium
confinement, they are restrained from exhibiting these behaviors or are unable
to.
Please do not throw these comments off as being frivolous. I am just trying to
gauge my feelings against those of fellow fish hobbyists! Who knows, maybe
they were solely born from my recent participation in scuba diving!
Regards,
Alex
Pat Draves
The last thing I want to do is start a flame-war here, because
I really have neither the time nor the energy for it. If anyone
wants to insult me, please e-mail all insults (remove the death2spam).
I've always been of the view that we were given dominion over the
animals for a reason. If we keep our domestic (or even wild-caught)
animals with responsibility, thoughtfulness, vigilance, and a healthy
respect for what we are doing, then I have no real problem with it.
In reality, even man himself is not currently living in the environment
which his evolution designed him for. I do have a problem with
destroying natural environments in order to acquire captive species,
but I'm pretty sure aquaria in general is not guilty of this.
bp
For some species, aquariums are the only habitat left to them. Take for example
the effect the Nile Perch is having on Lake Victoria. It seems that many cichlid
species may have already been wiped out by this predatory fish. Any hopes of
saving examples of some other endangered species in this lake may very well rely on
"cichlidophiles". In this pursuit, at least, it seems beneficial to continue
behaving as we have in the past.
As for the less endangered species; I ask myself if the knowledge and expertise to
deal with endangered species of cichlids would exist if not for the hobbyists
efforts. And how many ichthyologists would claim that their passion was initially
set to flame by a simple fish tank?
Although it may seem natural for a "cichlidophile" to be desirous of a world of
completely free cichlids, their imprisonment may, in fact, be more beneficial than
detrimental to their family (cichlidae). Besides, they're just fish. They're
probably too stupid to know any better.
Thai Ton
In article <199804281454...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
alex...@aol.com says...
To put it bluntly, the goal of any animal species (including homo sapiens) is
to procreate. As to the standard of living....I wish I owned a mansion,
drive a ferrari, have a yacht, eat out every day, etc.
This is not to say that I would subject any "pet" to "inhumane" (whoever
came up with that word is one stupid idiot) treatment. Remember that in
a natural environment some of these fish would be preyed upon and would have
to defend itself each and every day until it makes a mistake.
--
* Do not send advertising material to this address. I don't have any money. *
Carl Fox
Since this is about ethics and beliefs....
I believe that God gave us this world to enjoy and take care of, not
evolution. The increadible variety shows just how much He loves us and
wanted this world to be interesting. Therefore there is no problem with
taking animals of any sort from their environment and into our homes as
pets. A pet is much better taken care of than a wild creature that is at
the mercy of nature and pollution from man. The survivial rate of a fry in
the wild is practically zero (like winning the lottery), so we are giving
animals a chance to live a long, healthy, protected life, instead of being
eaten as a baby. On your two points:
You love your fish (like God loves you) and care if they are lonely, bored,
hungry, or sick. And they look to you for care, life in the wild is a
Hobbsian nightmare, bloody, brutal, and short. I, too enjoy all the
facinating Cichlid behaviors and try to provide a place where i can see them
as best I can. I do admit that the average tank is not the ideal, but it
sure beats the alternative.
Jesus loves you!
Carl
Alexprice wrote in message
<199804281454...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
JChromis
His viewpoints were just as valid as the original posters. The subject
concerned beliefs. He responded with his view on the subject, while explaining
why he felt that way. If he had simply said, 'They are just dumb animals',
would that have been more appropriate?
"Wise men don't need advice, fools don't take it." Ben Franklin
"Judge a man by his questions, rather than his answers." Voltaire
Cenedra234
<<<His viewpoints were just as valid as the original posters. The subject
concerned beliefs. He responded with his view on the subject, while explaining
why he felt that way. If he had simply said, 'They are just dumb animals',
would that have been more appropriate?>>>>
Let me make myself clear. I do respect Carl's opinion on fish and the way they
should be treated. I think it was a beautiful sentiment. What I would really
appreciate NOT reading is "Jesus Loves You" at the end of the post. I objected
to proselytizing, not his viewpoint. I was attempting to avoid flaming or
being offensive...something it seems this newsgroup gets a lot of *wink*
Val
Nathanael Henderson
: Nature has provided fish with a perfect environment in which the live and
: thrive.
Nature has provided a brutal cauldron that starves, sickens, and kills
all but a tiny fraction of the fish born into the world. Sure, it looks
pretty and peaceful when you're down there, but you usually only get to
see the winners of the war for survival. If a species is lucky it
survives. If it isn't, it ends up a statistic. Nature has an almost
splendid capacity for cruelty unmatched by most fish keepers.
: Our need to have such fish on display has taken them from their natural
: environment and placed them within a confined, contrived and unnatural
Well, we do it to our children--why not fish? (Or does anybody
seriously think schools, apartments, and mini-vans are the natural
environment of humans? :-) Different isn't necissarily bad.
: 1) They practically beg to be fed each time I approach the tank. I would not
: say this behavior is peculiar to my tank!! Possibly out of boredom they swim
: back and forth trying to get me to toss some tasty morsels into the tank.
Instinct. When food is available you go after it. In the wild that
tends to work out quite well--in captivity it can lead to overfeeding.
: 2) Many genus/species of fish show attributes of being social animals and
: having numerous social roles that they exhibit in their natural environment (ie
: schooling, mating, fry tendering). Unfortunately, due to their acquarium
: confinement, they are restrained from exhibiting these behaviors or are unable
I don't think that's particularly horrible, but I am a big believer in
giant tanks for just that reason: You often don't get to see truly
natural behavior in a cramped tank. Unfortunately I can't afford a tank
the size of the Amazon. :-)
I think a better concern about fish and responsability would be
breeding practices. Tropical fish have been so heavily inbred that in
some cases most of the spawn needs to be destroyed because the fish are
too malformed from birth defects to be sellable.
Nathan H.
Mark A. Stone
Carl Fox (car...@earthlink.net) pontificated:
> Since this is about ethics and beliefs....
> I believe that God gave us this world to enjoy and take care of, not
> evolution. The increadible variety shows just how much He loves us and
> wanted this world to be interesting. Therefore there is no problem with
> taking animals of any sort from their environment and into our homes as
> pets. A pet is much better taken care of than a wild creature that is at
> the mercy of nature and pollution from man.
What a load. Most fish that are in pet shops, and subsequently in
people's homes, are cruelly abused and die painful deaths. It's because
to most people, fish are decorations, and not pets.
> The survivial rate of a fry in
> the wild is practically zero (like winning the lottery),
Actually, approximately 1 in 10.
> so we are giving
> animals a chance to live a long, healthy, protected life, instead of being
> eaten as a baby.
A very small chance.
> You love your fish (like God loves you)
Are you willing to die on a cross for your fish? That's how much "God
loves you" according to traditional Christian beliefs. I don't believe
you would make that kind of comparison.
> and care if they are lonely, bored,
> hungry, or sick. And they look to you for care
No they don't. Other than an event that somehow coincides with feeding
time, you do not even exist to them.
> life in the wild is a
> Hobbsian nightmare, bloody, brutal, and short. I, too enjoy all the
> facinating Cichlid behaviors and try to provide a place where i can see them
> as best I can. I do admit that the average tank is not the ideal, but it
> sure beats the alternative.
So you're saying that the way God planned it (the alternative) is poor,
and the way Man (who, admit it, is your real God) plans is superior? What
a crock!
> Jesus loves you!
But apparently hates fish.
> Pope Carl
--Mark the Devil
--
The OSCAR Study Page is at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/9202
Mark A. Stone --cichl...@juno.com
The ".Edu" meens i are smart.
DJWhitfill
I agree. My view is that even the most well planted and well decorated
aquarium, whether a 10 gallon home aquarium or a 10,000+ gallon public aquarium
is at best an illusion with regards to the natural habitat that the fish came
from. I would like to believe that the hobby has done a lot in promoting the
preservation of such habitats-certainly having an aquarium raises the awareness
level. There is a lot ot said for the educational value of learning how to
maintain an aquarium.
Vincent
>
> Well, we do it to our children--why not fish? in
> some cases most of the spawn needs to be destroyed because they are
> too malformed from birth defects to be sellable.
>
> Nathan H.
Yes indeed,
I, like almost everybody else, raise them for only one reason:
Fighting!! While not as popular as cock fights, for me there is no
substitute for the sheer pleasure of watching them in thier
overpopulated, cramped quarters, as they rip each other apart.
It is a pitty about the malformed ones though.... and I guess that is
really where the Ethics come into play: Do we destroy them in
bulk, or just one or two at a time? Certainly, individual destruction
is a long drawn out pleasure, but exploding a whole population
at one time is really neat! Ahhh if only Plato were here to solve this.
Vince3
pa...@iglou.com
If this were true God wouldn't have created tartar sauce.
Regards,
Poul L. Verner
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:06:21 -0700, "Carl Fox" <car...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>You love your fish (like God loves you) and care if they are lonely, bored,
>hungry, or sick. And they look to you for care, life in the wild is a
>Hobbsian nightmare, bloody, brutal, and short. I, too enjoy all the
>facinating Cichlid behaviors and try to provide a place where i can see them
>as best I can. I do admit that the average tank is not the ideal, but it
>sure beats the alternative.
>
>Jesus loves you!
>
>Carl
>
>Alexprice wrote in message
><199804281454...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>>Fellow Cichlidites:
>>
>>I am sure I have shared the ups and downs of having acquarium fish with
>many fellow hobbyists on this board. Over the past 8 years I have invested a
>>significant amount of time and money tending to these magnificent
>creatures. More recently, though, I have begun to question MY OWN ethics regarding
>this hobby. As this newsgroup is dedicated to the aid and furtherance of
>cichlid keeping as a hobby for its members - I thought it would be a good forum for
>>well-thought out feedback on the following issue (bear with me, I tried to
>make it succinct) :
>Nature has provided fish with a perfect environment in which the live and
>thrive. An environment which has allowed evolutionary processes to take
>place,
>thus creating the wonderful attributes of the fish we appreciate so much
>every day.
>>
>>Our need to have such fish on display has taken them from their natural
>>environment and placed them within a confined, contrived and unnatural
>>existance, contrary to our best attempts! Reasons why I feel this way:
>>
>>1) They practically beg to be fed each time I approach the tank. I would
>not say this behavior is peculiar to my tank!! Possibly out of boredom they
>swim back and forth trying to get me to toss some tasty morsels into the tank.
>2) Many genus/species of fish show attributes of being social animals and
>>having numerous social roles that they exhibit in their natural environment
>(ie schooling, mating, fry tendering). Unfortunately, due to their acquarium
>>confinement, they are restrained from exhibiting these behaviors or are
>unable to.
Nugent
Meg
Mild Bill
I agree, but only as far a "Saltwater" fish are concerned... Marine fish
are obviously "not happy" in captivity. I've been in the retail and
wholesale fish business for 27 years, and the loss rate in Marine fish is
an abomination. A massive amount of fish brought into the country are dead
within 6 months. Millions of Mandarin Blennies are imported only to die of
starvation within the first 3 months because of being subjected to the
wrong environment and the wrong food.
Freshwater fish breed, defend territories, raise young, the young grow to
raise young, they eat from your fingers and get fat as hell. And with a
little housekeeping, they can live for years and years. Their diseases are
treatable, and often with successful results. My freshwater fish have no
fear of me or of predators. This brings out their enjoyable personalities.
I believe that they are happy and that they get what they need. The fact
that many fish in captivity get bigger and fatter than in the wild says
something I think. But in order to best assure their happiness and allow
them to practice the historic behavior for their species, we should attempt
to learn about their natural environment as best as we can and stock
accordingly.
You have permission to sleep good tonight!
Matt Moore
No it was Genges Khan, who ceated tartar sauce. (God, I'll be glad when I
figure out what's wrong with the spell checker.)
--
Good fishing, Matt
See my severum page at :
http://www.virtualseeds.com/matt.html
email: bodge...@yahoo.com
Nathanael Henderson
Vincent (vbur...@montana.edu) wrote:
: >
: > Well, we do it to our children--why not fish? in
: > some cases most of the spawn needs to be destroyed because they are
: > too malformed from birth defects to be sellable.
: >
: > Nathan H.
Now there's a bizzare quotation--two lines from different paragraphs
taken completely out of context and spliced together. If you really want
to you can just make up things and claim I said them too. :-)
: I, like almost everybody else, raise them for only one reason:
: Fighting!! While not as popular as cock fights, for me there is no
: substitute for the sheer pleasure of watching them in thier
: overpopulated, cramped quarters, as they rip each other apart.
Somewhat as a side topic (but I suppose anything is when you respond
to rambling incoherency) does anybody want to make a case that letting
fish fight if they want to is cruel?
: It is a pitty about the malformed ones though.... and I guess that is
: really where the Ethics come into play: Do we destroy them in
: bulk, or just one or two at a time? Certainly, individual destruction
I'm tempted to discuss the matter, but why bother? Some people just
can't be reached by reason.
'Than
Mark A. Stone
Matt Moore (bodge...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> No it was Genges Khan, who ceated tartar sauce. (God, I'll be glad when I
> figure out what's wrong with the spell checker.)
Mie spall chakker werks grate! --Mrak
Vincent
"Comedy is not pretty"
Steve Martin
( courtesey of Vince in Bozeman )
Tom
This is new to me. I'd never thought marine fish are not susceptible to
captivity. I know they'll need a constant evironment to thrive and this is why
live-rock(LR) or modify reef are almost necessary for long term success. Fishes
only tank is/are just an accident wait'g to happen.