One for the chemists.
Amateur
attempting to set up for plants and some dwarf South American species or
African Riverine species has CO2 injection and peat granules in the filter.
With all this, my pH has plummeted to a whopping 7.4. That's it, 7.4. So
here's the question. Can I expect the pH to drop any lower with the addition
of my driftwood, (currently soaking in a bucket) and plants? Or should I
start looking at species that'll be happy in a pH of 7.4-7.6?
If I go with a pair of Kribs or Dwarf Jewels in the 30" tank, what else
could I put in with them for a splash of color and to act as target fish?
Should I begin a search for Anomalochromis thomasi or will Flag Cichlids
(Red Breasted Acara) do Ok with a pH of 7.4? With this tank I was hoping to
get out of Africa, but no sense in buying a fish that's not compatible with
my water parameters.
Thanks in advance,
Amateur
Jim & Linda Brown
Amateur <ama...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:BQ2H9.2048$vs2.48...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
The driftwood may drop the pH a bit but not significantly. More of a concern
would be how stable the pH ends up. Unless you want to try the more
delicate types that practically insist on acidic levels of pH, your current
7.4 reading should be perfectly fine for almost all generally available
fish.
Your 30" tank is either a 30 gallon, or 20 gallon long. (US) Kribs will be
happy in either, but the 30 will give more room for the dither fish, yet
still be quite visible. We haven't found kribs to be that hung up on dither
fish needs, but the long 20 may not provide the potential need for a dither
fish to flee. Dwarf jewels is a name we aren't familiar with but if it's a
Hemichromis species, their extreme aggression will make either tank a tough
one to keep any dither fish alive for more than a token period. But they
could be interesting as their family life and pair bonding is what it's all
about.
The A. thomasi and the L. curviceps or L. dorsigera will do fine in the
water you have. Depending on which you end up with, you can even find some
dither fish (not really needed with these smaller cichlids) that are native
to the cichlid's continent of origin. The A. thomasi could be housed with
perhaps Congo tetras or some of the other characins that are sporadically
available. Some of the killis would be fine and they are tops for colour.
With either of the Laetacara's, there are many colourful S.A. characins to
liven up the aquarium. Don't forget the livebearers that have all the
colour and hardiness anyone could want. Not to put you off your choices,
but there are also the rams and the goldeye cichlids to consider. Even some
of the smaller Geophagus or less demanding Apistogramma species would be
happy in your aquarium.
As we say to our Rift Lake Cichlid friends that look outside the valley,
welcome to the real world of cichlids. ;-)
Jim
Amateur
"Jim & Linda Brown" <jim.lin...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:eV3H9.3195$3J2.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Thanks for the response. I was under the impression that a pH of 7.4 was
to high for the rams. The dwarf Jewel fish is also known as the A. thomasi
and is not in the Hemichromis genus with the common jewel and five spot
jewel fish. The tank is a 20L. If rams are doable and would be content in a
pH of 7.4, would they breed at that pH? For color and tank mates with say
Rams, I was thinking along the lines of neon tetras. What would be a better
choice for tankmates in that shallow environment that have as much eye
appeal and wouldn't over crowd the tank?
As for the real world of cichlids, I like to say to you old timers, it's
time to break the routine and try something new. Try a trip into this
century and set up a Rift Lake tank. ;-)
Amateur
a
The common chemicals present in aquarium water can exist in a number of
different forms. For example, the carbonate can exist as CO2 (carbon dioxide)
HCO3- (bi-carbonate ion) and CO3= (carbonate ion). Similarly ammonia can exist
as NH3 (ammonia) of NH4+ (ammonium ion). Other ions exist, but these serve as a
good example. All versions of these chemicals exist in the water, with only the
relative ratios varying, depending on pH.
With a pH buffer, ions such as the ones described above will combine, and will
do so in such a way that they will tend to resist any change in pH. In other
words, when these ions exist in certain ratios, you can try to change the pH,
but the buffer will try to absorb the pH effect of any acid or alkalai substance
you put in there - the pH can be changed, but it will take relatively more acid
/ alkalai to effect the same pH value change when a uffer is present compared to
when it is not. All pH buffers have a natural, or equilibrium, pH value.
Additionally, the wood will tend to adsorb (no this is not a spelling mistake -
adsorption is different to absorption) not only acid (H+) or alkalai (OH-)
chemicals onto its surface (onto the hydroxyl groups attached that form part of
the cellulose, etc, that comprises the actual wood), but also some of the other
ions present in the water. The wood can also release any ions alreay adsorbed
onto its surface. In other words, the wood itself can act as a pH buffer in this
system.
A pH buffer is not the only reason that your pH has found a natural balance. The
quantity of acid or alkalai ions absorbed into the wood that you have added will
also effect the pH of your system (ie the water present in the pores of the wood
that seeps out when you put it into your tank), as will other substances such as
tannins. Additionally, a pH buffer is not necessarily a bad thing. It will help
to make your tank's pH much more stable and resistant to rapid fluctuations. The
only detrimental effect will be due to the presence of dissolved ions (salts)
which may affect your fish if their concentration is high enough.
Hope this helps.
Cichlidiot
injection isn't going well, but it's hard to tell for sure without knowing
the KH. Here's some CO2 charts to determine approximate CO2 from pH and
KH:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html
The Krib also contains some other methods to determine CO2 if your KH is
higher than that listed on the charts.
As for the driftwood, if it leachs tannins, it could lower the pH,
especially in such a small tank. But I would first concentrate on checking
out the CO2 system and making sure it's injecting enough CO2.
Jim & Linda Brown
Rams are doable and breedable at that pH, but will be helped with some peat
filtration and some real warmth. Even using rain or RO water for every 2nd
or 3rd water change will be a big plus. The many generations of tank
raising has mellowed their requirements.
Neons are very nice, but prefer it a bit cooler than the rams. Maybe
consider cardinals or any of a host of others that like the higher
temperatures.
Let's see- the first cichlid I really remember spawning successfully was the
good ol' pink convict in 1967. The first Rift Lake cichlid spawned was
Labeotropheus fuelleborni in 1976 or '77. To date in our club's BAP, we
have successfully spawned 50 cichlids, with 13 of them being Rift Lakers.
That doesn't include the riverine or West African ones like Tilapia spp,
jewels, or krib types.
I think that confirms we have tried them both, but we still prefer the
family life of the non Rift Lake cichlids. Even Julilidochromis can't match
the parental care of Cichlasoma or Hemichromis.
Thank you for the 'Old Timer' designation. I much prefer that to the 'Old
Geezer' I get from friends. ;-)
Jim
NetMax
>
> Amateur <ama...@snet.net> wrote in message
> news:iK7H9.2089$9h5.49...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > "Jim & Linda Brown" <jim.lin...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:eV3H9.3195$3J2.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Hah, I was trying to breed Iodotropheus sprengerae (then Petrotilapia
tridentigers) in 1972, and I'm not an old timer or ole geezer (still
young and firmly in denial ;o). However, it is neat how some people
think of African Rift Lake cichlids as 'new wave', instead of something
that has been around for more than 30 years. Of course with all the name
changes, they become new again every few years.
NetMax
Amateur
"NetMax" <comput...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ANfH9.6148$3J2.8...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Hah, I was trying to breed Iodotropheus sprengerae (then Petrotilapia
> tridentigers) in 1972, and I'm not an old timer or ole geezer (still
> young and firmly in denial ;o). However, it is neat how some people
> think of African Rift Lake cichlids as 'new wave', instead of something
> that has been around for more than 30 years. Of course with all the name
> changes, they become new again every few years.
>
> NetMax
>
I consider the Rift Lake cichlids as "new" just because the lakes have
been shut down to export on and off so frequently over the years, that Rift
Lake cichlids haven't had nearly as much exposure to the hobby as CA or SA
breeds have. If you go someplace like Petco or Petsmart you'll find tanks of
Oscars, Convicts and Assorted African cichlids. I find this to be true in
many of the generic pet stores out there also.
Breeding fish in 1972? Since I was born in '72' I'll disagree on the
denial of being an 'Old Timer'. :)
Amateur
NetMax
Thirty is no spring chicken either ;o). I feel bad for those coming
into the hobby over the next 10-15 years, as their 'new' fish might all
be painted, dyed or genetic hybrids. In ten years, they might think that
Rift Lake fish are for Old Timers (but by then, you will be part of the
Old Timer's in denial too ;~).
NetMax
Craig.
process will produce, will it not over time further decrease the
PH ?
Sodium bi phosphate is sold to lower PH as it liqid Phosphoric
acid of come kind and both seem to work OK but add sodium ions which
maybe undesireable. It seem to me HCL is perfect for lowering PH in a
fish tank, anyone ever used it ?? ( I am ignoring the fact that the
stuff is dangerous)
Craig.
Laura
acid solutions contain free chlorine, which is hazardous for a number of
reasons.
"Craig." <c...@schnauzer.com.au> wrote in message
news:3df177c9...@news.myisp.net.au...
Nestor 10
> I would not use HCl aq to lower the pH of the tank since most
> hydrochloric acid solutions contain free chlorine, which is
> hazardous for a number of reasons.
That said, would you like to take even a *guess* as to what concentration of
HCl will ionize to chlorine rather than chlorides. Perhaps what
concentration would be required to do this in an aqueous solution?
Or if anything will be alive and in one piece by this point?...
--
-Y-
Nestor 10
nest...@mindspring.chkr.com
".chkr" is for mail-bots
Craig.
It obviously would be a weak solution
I could also have offered an uneducated speculation as you did, again
my interest was if someone actually knew.
Craig.
Nestor 10
> What I was wanting to know was if someone had actually done it ??
> It obviously would be a weak solution
> I could also have offered an uneducated speculation as you did, again
> my interest was if someone actually knew.
C'mon, Craig - can you not figure out that my response was toward Laura and
not yourself? Or more specifically, against the rather alarmist claim she
merely tossed into the mix.
Uneducated?
Speculation?
You presume too much in your haste to denigrate.
> Anyone any ideas on the natural acidification the nitrifyng
> process will produce, will it not over time further decrease the
> PH ?
Yes indeed, it _does_ acidify through a consumption of the tank's total
alkalinity. But do you have a 500-gallon tank with only a single Betta, or a
5-gallon tank with 6 Koi?
> Sodium bi phosphate is sold to lower PH as it liqid Phosphoric
> acid of come kind and both seem to work OK but add sodium
> ions which maybe undesireable.
With the small amounts of acid required, the phosphates would be more
problematic than the sodium. Additionally, you introduce a competing buffer
that makes prediction of the tank's response a bit more involved.
> It seem to me HCL is perfect for lowering PH in a fish tank,
> anyone ever used it ?? ( I am ignoring the fact that the
> stuff is dangerous)
Sure, it lowers pH, but the trade-off is an increase in conductivity.
Happens with just about any mineral acid you try. But you have to consider
*more* than just the pH, and keep in mind the conditions that generally
dictate pH in a _natural_ environment. A low pH coupled with a high
conductivity is decidedly "unnatural".
If you desire more specific responses, you'll have to narrow the focus of
your questions a bit. If you're just "brainstorming", then don't complain
about a lack of precision that's not been requested...
Laura
Please review your basic chemistry. Most community colleges offer an
introductory inorganic chemistry class for which you might apply.
Unless you are willing to purchase USP grade HCl, you are probably
introducing chlorine or other contaminants as a result of the manufacturing
process.
"Nestor 10" <nest...@mindspring.chkr.com> wrote in message
news:atbkeo$lg7$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
Craig.
Thats my final say,
Craig.
Jamie D
> The only thing I can figure out is that no one has ever done it.
>
> Thats my final say,
>
> Craig.
Ahem,
Just had to add my 2 cents. IME, the amount of kH has far more of an impact
on fish happiness than pH. Fish that like water with low, acidic pH do so
mainly because the water is soft. By adding acids to aquarium water to lower
pH you are creating an environment that does not exist in their natural
habitat - low pH with hard(er) water. A better way to lower pH is by
filtering through peat, which will soften water, or starting out with R/O or
deionized water and adding carbonates to bring pH up to where you need it.
Remember, I am not a chemist, just a successful aquarist.
Jamie
~
Laura
"Jamie D" <marble...@icqmail.com> wrote in message
news:W_FK9.54295$hw3.8090@sccrnsc04...
>
Nestor 10
> Nester,
That's Nestor, with an "o" if you don't mind.
> Please review your basic chemistry. Most community
> colleges offer an introductory inorganic chemistry
> class for which you might apply...
_This_ is your version of a response? Duck the question by trying to cast
aversions?
You stated "most hydrochloric acid solutions contain free chlorine", to
which I again ask "at what concentration?" And considering the minute
amounts of concentrated acid needed to affect the small volume of water in
question, once diluted to such proportions would *any* chlorine (from your
original levels) be detectable?
> Unless you are willing to purchase USP grade HCl,
> you are probably introducing chlorine or other
> contaminants as a result of the manufacturing
> process.
What, now you're going to hedge your bets by adding "other contaminants" to
the mix? Or is this just another way to dodge the question at hand?
The manufacturing process? You mean where they take simple hydrogen chloride
and bubble it through water, where it dissolves quite readily? Where they
obtain the hydrogen chloride commercially by reaction of sulfuric acid to
simple table salt? What would be the "other contaminants" - sulfur or
sodium?
I'm asking you to provide the basis and background for your statements, and
your defense is to require me to justify my asking. Try defending your
thesis this way in front of a review panel and see if you get _your_ degree.
I already have one from 25 years ago...
-Y-
Nestor 10
> The only thing I can figure out is that no one has ever done it.
>
> Thats my final say,
The logic of this conclusion is _easily_ refuted by the simplest of Google
Groups searches. In fact, I'm surprised neither Frank Bayne nor NetMax (who,
luckily enough, are *far* more diplomatic than I) have entered this thread -
especially Frank.
There are scores upon scores of aquarists who use hydrochloric acid to lower
pH, and with methodologies that are quite suitable and even successful to
their purposes. It's just not a method that *I personally* utilyze because
it's contraindicated in *my own* case - the fish I keep need the softest of
waters as well as the lowest of pH levels to breed. And this includes the
conductivity.
But again, as long as you only provide the most general of scenarios or are
willing to jump on the first response given you, then you're not likely to
find what you're after very easily. The only way to get _proper_ help is to
actually _let_ people help you.
If you want to know whether mineral acids are likely to be a successful
option for you, we need to know a few things. Chief among them are your
starting conditions and hopeful end point. It would also be useful to know
_why_ you'd like to reach that point, so that if acids *aren't* the "way to
go" then perhaps other options can be provided. This, of course, is also
dependent upon you're having an open mind toward the suggestions as well.
Even if you find out you might not even have to do *anything* in order to
actually achieve what you _really_ want, which turns out to be the case in a
surpising number of cases...
-Y-
Laura
If you would rather use a monoprotic, extremely corrosive acid to adjust
your pH please be my guest. Yes, I agree it's possible to blast your pH
down with muratic acid. Go for it! Get the yellow kind they sell at home
depot and use a lot of it. Because I am and have been a chemical engineer
for some time, I tend to look for simpler, less toxic solutions, and was
concerned when someone suggested using HCL(aq). There are, in my opinion
better and safer alternatives. And yes, one should be aware that there are
different grades of chemicals available, and not all are suitable for all
uses.
In addition Nester, I never suggested that the free chlorine was the result
of "ionization". That was your assumption. Impurities are the result of the
manufacturing process and/or oxidative decomposition, as any msds will tell
you. You don't have to take my word for it however here are some links you
may find of interest.
http://www.tatachemicals.net/0_products/hydrochloric_acid.htm
http://www.chem.tamu.edu/class/majors/msdsfiles/msdshcl.htm
P.S. While you're at the Home Depot pick up some lye and you can make your
own table salt.
NaOH (aq) + HCl (aq) --> NaCl (aq) + H2O (l) YUMMY!
"Nestor 10" <nest...@mindspring.chkr.com> wrote in message
news:atgj1d$jhg$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
Nestor 10
news:VBSK9.234577$GR5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> Dearest Nester,
Yes, Laura?
(notice how I still tend to use and spell your name correctly, despite your
sophomoric prodding)
> ...I am and have been a chemical engineer for some time,
> I tend to look for simpler, less toxic solutions, and was
> concerned when someone suggested using HCL(aq)...
I tend to believe that a true chemical engineer would have stressed the
dangers involved with the acid itself, and not some remote chance of
chlorine poisoning introduced by diluting a 0.001% solution by *several*
orders of magnitude.
Since I see this never was, nor will be, a debate on the merits of _fact_,
I'll just bow out now. I _really_ hate simple pissing matches...
-Y-
hmmm...I've always used the Home Depot type - used for pH "shocking" your
swimming pool, by the way. It never seems to take much from the bottle to
affect an entire pool, and for some reason my skin's still attached and my
eyes clear. It still sits next to a bottle of sodium htdroxide, too.
But then, my fish didn't learn chemistry from a MSDS any more than I did...
NetMax
> Craig wrote in message news:3dfb0abe....@news.myisp.net.au...
> > The only thing I can figure out is that no one has ever done it.
> >
> > Thats my final say,
>
> The logic of this conclusion is _easily_ refuted by the simplest of
> Groups searches. In fact, I'm surprised neither Frank Bayne nor NetMax
(who,
> luckily enough, are *far* more diplomatic than I) have entered this
thread -
> especially Frank.
>
Just snipped what I thought was a _very_ diplomatic answer by Nestor,
(perhaps even too diplomatic, almost out of character ;o). Between
learned collegues of chemistry, anything I would add could only serve as
comic relief :~), but it was almost a fascinating read.
NetMax
>
> -Y-
>
>