Dealer Ethics
Cory Turner
will not mention the dealer, but this has upset me enough to post this
inquiry.
Over the last weekend, I was on vacation, and, as per habit, I stopped
into some antique stores in the area I was visiting. I went into an
antique mall and saw an old wind-up phonograph. It was advertised as a
1905 Victor. It had a Victor reproducer (the part the needle goes into)
and a nice oak case and old "Morning Glory" horn. The piece looked
authentic and the person informed me that it was probably a Columbia
phonograph, not a Victor, as advertised. Everything seemed o.k., so I
purchased the phonograph (I had left my phonograph book at home to
identify it).
One I got home and did research on the phonograph, I found out that it
was, indeed, a Columbia motor, however the casing had changed so much that
it no longer looked like the original piece. The piece that held the horn
originally, was changed completely (the original phonograph had an
older-type armature holding the reproducer and the horn). This change was
not too upsetting, because many of these phonographs were modified in this
way. The main complaint is the GREAT change in the design of the oak box.
Also, the original turntable was 7", not 10".
When I contacted the owner of the shop and notified her of my discovery
and the fact that the machine was not worth as much as I paid, she stated
that the store has a "No Return" policy. She stated that it was clearly
posted above the door, when one walks in. I did not notice it (and I
think this a null point, anyway).
My point to the owner is:
The machine was represented on the tag as a Victor phonograph from 1905...
it was not, but I did know that, or have that idea from the store clerk.
What I did not know is that the machine was not even, structurally, a
Columbia, or any other type machine. This phonograph appears to be a
Columbia motor in a severely modified oak case. Not historically correct.
The fact is that I paid for and was under the impression that this was an
actual antique phonograph, not something modified to the point of not
being able to recognize it.
The dealer stated it was bought at auction as a Victor and buying it from
her mall is the same as buying it at an auction-- no returns. Does this
sound like good business to you? I was never told of a no return policy
(nor did I ask). I have worked in antique stores, in the past, and if
something was found to be faux, or not what one was lead to believe, a
refund would be given. What is the opinion of this newsgroup on this?
Thanks
C. Turner
cotu...@loyno.edu
Kris Baker
"Cory Turner" <cotu...@loyno.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.56.0307102040180.1794278@neo1...
>
> The dealer stated it was bought at auction as a Victor and buying it from
> her mall is the same as buying it at an auction-- no returns. Does this
> sound like good business to you? I was never told of a no return policy
> (nor did I ask). I have worked in antique stores, in the past, and if
> something was found to be faux, or not what one was lead to believe, a
> refund would be given. What is the opinion of this newsgroup on this?
>
> Thanks
>
> C. Turner
> cotu...@loyno.edu
She's expecting you to shove it off on someone else, the
same way someone shoved it off on her....and how she
shoved it to you.
Is it right? I think not, but this is the danger of buying
something you're not completely familiar with.
In some states, the returns policy must be noted on
the sales receipt. You might want to check to see if
that applies to this case.
Kris
Marshall Schuon
wrote:
>This is posted to obtain opinions on a particular dealer's practices. I
>will not mention the dealer, but this has upset me enough to post this
>inquiry.
>
Yada, yada ... Do you know the phrase "buyer beware?"
Seems like you didn't do any kind of homework before you reached for
your wallet.
I would suggest you put a Volkswagen engine into it and take it to
the nearest Cruise Night.
Marshall
mcat
wrote:
>This is posted to obtain opinions on a particular dealer's practices. I
>will not mention the dealer, but this has upset me enough to post this
>inquiry.
>
>Over the last weekend, I was on vacation, and, as per habit, I stopped
>into some antique stores in the area I was visiting. I went into an
>antique mall and saw an old wind-up phonograph. It was advertised as a
>1905 Victor. It had a Victor reproducer (the part the needle goes into)
>and a nice oak case and old "Morning Glory" horn. The piece looked
>authentic and the person informed me that it was probably a Columbia
>phonograph, not a Victor, as advertised. Everything seemed o.k., so I
>purchased the phonograph (I had left my phonograph book at home to
>identify it).
>
<..............>
>The dealer stated it was bought at auction as a Victor and buying it from
>her mall is the same as buying it at an auction-- no returns. Does this
>sound like good business to you? I was never told of a no return policy
>(nor did I ask). I have worked in antique stores, in the past, and if
>something was found to be faux, or not what one was lead to believe, a
>refund would be given. What is the opinion of this newsgroup on this?
>
>Thanks
>
>C. Turner
>cotu...@loyno.edu
If the clerk outright told you that the tag might be misleading, that
would imply that you were buying it AS IS. Sounds like you were led
to believe that is was *not* as stated on the tag.
Does that shopowner specialise in phonographs? If you (who actually
have a phonograph book) couldn't tell how wrong it was without looking
it up, maybe they didn't know either.
mcat
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proudmari
> Turner wrote:
> This is posted to obtain opinions on a
> particular dealer's practices. I will
> not mention the dealer, but this has
> upset me enough to post this inquiry.
> Over the last weekend, I was on
> vacation, and, as per habit, I stopped
> into some antique stores in the area I
> was visiting. I went into an antique
> mall and saw an old wind-up phonograph.
> It was advertised as a 1905 Victor. It
> had a Victor reproducer (the part the
> needle goes into) and a nice oak case
> and old "Morning Glory" horn. The piece
> looked authentic and the person informed
> me that it was probably a Columbia
Knowing it was already identified improperly, you still chose to
purchase it?
> phonograph, not a Victor, as advertised.
> Everything seemed o.k., so I purchased
> the phonograph (I had left my phonograph
> book at home to identify it).
>
> The dealer stated it was bought at
> auction as a Victor and buying it from
> her mall is the same as buying it at an
> auction-- no returns. Does this sound
> like good business to you? I was never
> told of a no return policy (nor did I
> ask).
You were probably too distracted thinking about the _profit_ you thought
you were going to turn on it.
> I have worked in antique stores,
> in the past, and if something was found
> to be faux, or not what one was lead to
> believe, a refund would be given. What
> is the opinion of this newsgroup on
> this?
> Thanks
> C. Turner
Cost of Phonograph that wasn't worth as much as buyer hoped:
Big $$$
Cost of book that wasn't along for the ride when needed:
$24.95
Lesson learned about asking Return Policy BEFORE paying too much for
already improperly labelled items in _unfamiliar_ Antique stores?
Priceless!
Just a suggestion, but next time you find yourself in this same
situation, (ie: afraid it will be sold before you can find out for
_sure_ it's worth 10 times their asking price) Put a small deposit down
to hold it until you can race home to research it. Better to lose a 10%
deposit on an item than betting the farm and losing it all.
JM2¢
proudmari
Smorgass Bored
double-smart buyer buys your phonograph marked 1905 Victor, clearly
knowing that it has mismatched parts. They take it home and take off the
one part that they need to restore a 1905 Victor and replace it with
some other part and then bring it back for a refund.
A buyer buys an 'old' diamond ring and takes it home,only to return a
few days later with the same ring and complaining that the diamond
doesn't test out on their diamond meter and is only a CZ. They want a
refund.
A buyer takes home a perfect "______" vase and returns later with an
identical vase/figurine with a large undisclosed scratch/crack and wants
a refund.
A buyer takes home an expensive windup toy and returns with what
appears to be the same toy days later, but claims that it doesn't wind
or run and wants a refund.
There's a reason why old/antique items are sold 'As Is' ... imo
NEXT,
(btw, I HAVE issued refunds when I feel they were warranted......)
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Tim Mullen
question. I'd like to point out a useful link for anyone
else thinking of buying ye olde antique sound machine:
http://www.mainspringpress.com/crapo.html
These hideous things are rampant. Along with "early"
brass microscopes, tansits, etcetera, etcetera.
--
Tim Mullen
------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I in your basement? Looking for antique televisions, fans, etc.
------ finger this account or call anytime: (212)-463-0552 -------
Gerald Clough
> I'm not wieghing in one way or the other on the original
> question. I'd like to point out a useful link for anyone
> else thinking of buying ye olde antique sound machine:
>
> http://www.mainspringpress.com/crapo.html
>
> These hideous things are rampant. Along with "early"
> brass microscopes, tansits, etcetera, etcetera.
>
And, like the phony antique brass navigation stuff, there are plenty of
dealers willing to say, "I don't know much about this piece", when the
reality is they bought a case of them and have plenty in the back room.
--
Gerald Clough
clo...@texas.net
"Nothing has any value, unless you know you can give it up."
Cory Turner
> Knowing it was already identified improperly, you still chose to
> purchase it?
Yes, I did. Most of these phonographs have had minor alterations, which
are easily remedied. Unfortunately, this one was was over that... MAJOR
alterations. Imagine buying an 1815 American chest on chest for $8,000.
A remarkable deal. The dealer states that it has been refinished. You
get it home and notice that the piece is actually an amalgamation of
several pieces, rendering worthless. I guess this is the same thing... the
buyer must know and the dealer has no obligation to make things "right."
> You were probably too distracted thinking about the _profit_ you thought
> you were going to turn on it.
I have never been a dealer. I worked for a dealer who was ethical and
valued her reputation as being an honest business person. Too bad not
all dealers are this way.
You may have forgotten, but some people like to collect nice things and
are not looking to turn a profit off of everything. The phonograph was
purchased at not such an outstanding price savings... about right for a
Columbia phonograph. When I got home, it was found that the motor was a
Columbia and the box was a creation of some sort. WORTHLESS.
> Cost of Phonograph that wasn't worth as much as buyer hoped:
>
> Big $$$
>
> Cost of book that wasn't along for the ride when needed:
>
> $24.95
>
> Lesson learned about asking Return Policy BEFORE paying too much for
> already improperly labelled items in _unfamiliar_ Antique stores?
>
> Priceless!
That is brilliant! Tell us where your store is and we will all frequent
it and buy things from you! Be sure to put that sign up by your register
and tell people to look at it before they purchase anything. Another
merchandising hint: when someone brings something over to you and asks
what it is, ask them what do they want it to be and then tell them it is!
Imagine the sales potential! Remember it is the buyer's fault for not
knowing!
> Just a suggestion, but next time you find yourself in this same
> situation, (ie: afraid it will be sold before you can find out for
> _sure_ it's worth 10 times their asking price) Put a small deposit down
> to hold it until you can race home to research it. Better to lose a 10%
> deposit on an item than betting the farm and losing it all.
You know, this must come from the same brilliant "Advice in Antique
Salesmanship" book. Cast aspersions on the buyer... it is all the buyer's
fault. Sure this is a lesson well learned for me, but it should also be a
lesson well learned for everyone else on this group as well. There are
unscrupulous individuals out there who think this way, as obvious from
other postings on this topic. Yes, always BUYER BEWARE.. beware of the
mechandise and the antique dealer as they can pull one over on you and
feel 'in the clear.'
I am not going to say all dealers are louts, but the ones that are out
there ruin the reputations of dealers everywhere.
Cory Turner
What about the hope that there is an honest antique dealer? Or is that a
null set?
>
> Seems like you didn't do any kind of homework before you reached for
> your wallet.
How many people do this on everything they buy. I wanted an antique
phonograph and basically got a shoe box with a motor and horn -- at least,
worth as much.
> I would suggest you put a Volkswagen engine into it and take it to
> the nearest Cruise Night.
>
Know where I can get a good deal on an authentic one? Why bother,
everything else is fake.
> Marshall
>
Cory Turner
> would imply that you were buying it AS IS. Sounds like you were led
> to believe that is was *not* as stated on the tag.
The shop represented the phonograph as an antique. The motor was a
Columbia, the box was something else, and the horn was something else.
Put all together as one, would you call it an antique. Reproduction
phonographs are just that conglomerations of different antique parts. Does
assembling antique parts make something an antique? Say we are buying a
car with a Ford hood ornament. The dealer tells you that the car is
actually an Oldsmobile. Fine, you take the car home, thinking you can
change the hood ornament to an Oldmobile ornament and have an antique
Oldsmobile. When you get home, the car has the body of a Buick. So you
have the body of a Buick, the motor of an Oldsmobile and the hood ornament
of a Ford. What do you have? NOTHING!
>
> Does that shopowner specialise in phonographs? If you (who actually
> have a phonograph book) couldn't tell how wrong it was without looking
> it up, maybe they didn't know either.
No, they didn't. A dealer should now something about what they have or
represent to have IMHO. Every time they make a sale or representation,
they put thier credibility and reputation on the line. If a mistake is
made by the dealer should the buyer suffer, just because the buyer may be
knowledge-disadvantaged? It is forgotten that this is not my
profession... I am a collector, not someone who does this for a living.
Is not knowing a good excuse for not caring?
C.T.
Cory Turner
thing, I appreciate your viewpoint and not simply stating that it is the
buyer's problem completely.
Thanks
Marshall Schuon
wrote:
>>Say we are buying a
>car with a Ford hood ornament. The dealer tells you that the car is
>actually an Oldsmobile. Fine, you take the car home, thinking you can
>change the hood ornament to an Oldmobile ornament and have an antique
>Oldsmobile. When you get home, the car has the body of a Buick. So you
>have the body of a Buick, the motor of an Oldsmobile and the hood ornament
>of a Ford. What do you have? NOTHING!
>>
>C.T.
_______
I would suggest that if you don't know a Ford from an Olds from a
Buick, you ought to get yourself a wee bit of knowledge about
automobiles before you become "a collector." I would venture that the
principle even holds true for phonographs.
Marshall
Tim Mullen
>And, like the phony antique brass navigation stuff, there are plenty of
>dealers willing to say, "I don't know much about this piece", when the
>reality is they bought a case of them and have plenty in the back room.
You're not kidding. With the number of these things I've started
seeing in the past ten years, you'd think all anyone did back then
was survey land and listen to Caruso records.
Here's another good checklist for anyone who might be eyeing up
that sexy lil' morning glory horn at the local shop:
http://www.oldcrank.com/articles/crapophone/crap-o-phones.html
mcat
wrote:
>>
>> Does that shopowner specialise in phonographs? If you (who actually
>> have a phonograph book) couldn't tell how wrong it was without looking
>> it up, maybe they didn't know either.
>
>No, they didn't. A dealer should now something about what they have or
>represent to have IMHO. Every time they make a sale or representation,
>they put thier credibility and reputation on the line. If a mistake is
>made by the dealer should the buyer suffer, just because the buyer may be
>knowledge-disadvantaged? It is forgotten that this is not my
>profession... I am a collector, not someone who does this for a living.
>Is not knowing a good excuse for not caring?
>
In my experience, *collectors* tend to know more about their chosen
subjects than a general dealer-of-all-things will. If I were in the
clerk's place, I'd have asked you, before you bought, if you were
*certain* you wanted it. And I'd have written "as is" on the receipt,
since you did know that it was not completely correct. I have
discouraged people from buying things in my store that they were
obviously ambivilant about. I would much rather have them leave empty
handed, and return another time to find something they love; than get
home with something they dislike, with a bad taste left, so they never
come back.
I care. Really. Perhaps you haven't considered that your purchase
isn't a complete loss. Now you have something specific to look for
while out antiqueing -- a proper but empty case!
> Say we are buying a
>car with a Ford hood ornament. The dealer tells you that the car is
>actually an Oldsmobile. Fine, you take the car home, thinking you can
>change the hood ornament to an Oldmobile ornament and have an antique
>Oldsmobile. When you get home, the car has the body of a Buick. So you
>have the body of a Buick, the motor of an Oldsmobile and the hood ornament
>of a Ford. What do you have? NOTHING!
>C.T.
As long as the engine compartment will hold a 427 Ford, I'm okay.
Cory Turner
the thing... I got the thing and did some homework. If a dealer is going
to put a relatively large price on something, shouldn't they do some
homework too, or is is enought to say "I bought it as this, so it is
this". The whole premise of an auction is you buy it... it's yours no
matter what... and that is the complete understanding. I've bought things
at auction. Sometimes you get a deal, sometimes you don't... that's life.
My feeling is that when you go to a store, especially one who claims to
run an honest operation, they should not simply have the philosophy "I got
stuck with it, now you're stuck with it... deal with it or sell it to some
other sap." Auctions should be different than antique dealers. Ususally
you pay more at the dealer than you would at an auction (in fact this item
came from an auction). My question is why are certain dealers so lazy as
to not research their larger ticket products BEFORE selling them? Oh, I
forgot, they want to make money on thier mistakenly bought crap, so it
doesn't matter what it is. I guess I've been around the wrong type of
dealers all my life... ones who are helpful and try to be honest. Ones
that, when a mistake is made, will work to make the customer happy.
Basically, I'm getting the idea that antique dealers are gypsies.
Cory Turner
like. This thing did not look like a crap-o-phone. The horn is a old
paineted morningglory horn. The back bracket and reproducer are Victor.
The motor is a Columbia and the box, thoug it fits the motor, is something
different, it seems, at least different thatn the A.K. motor inside.
I figured that I could have changed the back bracket and tone arm and had
a relatively good machine. Why bother?
The thing that should have dawned on me is the people change these things
to con people into thinking it is a more expensive Victor. Ooops.
Andy Dingley
wrote:
> These hideous things are rampant. Along with "early"
>brass microscopes, tansits, etcetera, etcetera.
Most (all ?) the faked brass instruments I've seen have been
"Stanley", which I presume were made last week in a big shed near
Beijing. OTOH, the crap-o-phones are recycled from things that aren't
what they claim, but are still vaguely old.
Is there also a similar trade in "recycled" microscopes and
theodolites?
Cory Turner
> despicable comment for anyone to make. Do you have views on other ethnic
> groups and minorities? Or are "gypsies" the lowest form you know?
>
> Lets just pin a big triangle on all antique dealers.
>
In the dictionary the definition for gyp is:
TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: gypped also gipped, gypping, gipping,
gyps, gips
To deprive (another) of something by fraud; cheat or swindle.
NOUN: 1. A fraud or swindle.
2. One who defrauds; a swindler.
ETYMOLOGY: Probably short for Gypsy.
In short, take it up with Mr. Webster. I am not a racist, nor am I
against any minority. In America, people say "I've been gypped" when
they are ripped off.
I apologize for anyone who may have been insulted. Certainly, the lowest
form of human I know are those who steal and cheat to make a
living. I am sure there are honest gypsies, as I am sure that many
antique dealers are honest people. Granted, many "gypsies" would probably
make good on a deal, but they travel so much and so often that finding
them again is difficult. What is the excuse for the stationary antique
dealer who profits off of tourists?
The question asked in the original post would have been what steps can be
taken to resolve this because I am sure this practice is illegal.
Mike Wilcox
How about an image of this poor orphan ?
Mike Wilcox
Cory Turner
1. A member of a people that arrived in Europe in migrations from northern
India around the 14th century, now also living in North America and
Australia. Many Gypsy groups have preserved elements of their traditional
culture, including an itinerant existence and the Romany language.
2. See Romany (sense 2).
3. gypsy One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life.
4. A person who moves from place to place as required for employment,
especially: a. A part-time or temporary member of a college faculty. b. A
member of the chorus line in a theater production.
Now, would you conduct buisiness with a person who is a nomad with an
an itinerant lifestyle? Would you trust this stype of person to give
you a refund on something? Even if they would like to, they would be long
gone.
Let's tell the whole story, not just part of the story. Or is the bull
harder to sell this way?
On
Sat, 12 Jul 2003, Ronnie McKinley wrote:
> In rec.antiques Cory Turner <cotu...@loyno.edu> wrote:
>
> RMCK wrote (added by me)
> >> I sincerely hope there are no "gypsies" reading this ng. What a
> >> despicable comment for anyone to make. Do you have views on other ethnic
> >> groups and minorities? Or are "gypsies" the lowest form you know?
> >>
> >> Lets just pin a big triangle on all antique dealers.
> >>
> >
> >In the dictionary the definition for gyp is:
> >TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: gypped also gipped, gypping, gipping,
> >gyps, gips
> >To deprive (another) of something by fraud; cheat or swindle.
> >NOUN: 1. A fraud or swindle.
> >2. One who defrauds; a swindler.
> >ETYMOLOGY: Probably short for Gypsy.
> >
> >In short, take it up with Mr. Webster. I am not a racist, nor am I
> >against any minority. In America, people say "I've been gypped" when
> >they are ripped off.
> >
>
> You didn't originally post 'gyp' 'gypped' or 'gypping' but "gypsies" -
> there is no plural for 'gyp' is there? and if so, we normally add 'sies'
> turning it into **gypsies** is that your claim??!!!!!!??
>
>
> You wrote ... "Basically, I'm getting the idea that antique dealers are
> gypsies."
>
> OED - Gypsy
> n. (also Gipsy) (pl. -ies)
> 1: a member of a nomadic people of
> Europe and N. America, of Hindu
> origin with dark skin and hair, and
> speaking a language related to Hindi.
> 2: (gypsy) a person resembling or
> living like a Gypsy.
>
> The etymology for 'gyp' derives 19th century from the British "a college
> servant at Cambridge and Durham."
>
> Stop back-pedalling.
>
>
> >The question asked in the original post would have been what steps can be
> >taken to resolve this because I am sure this practice is illegal.
>
>
> Well then hire a lawyer and dry your eyes.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ronnie
>
Cory Turner
I did like it when people responded and forwared the response to my
e-mail, as well, but I guess people are different. Incidentally, why did
you choose to post this on the newsgroups and not send it to my personal
e-mail?
On Sat, 12 Jul 2003, Ronnie McKinley wrote:
> In rec.antiques Cory Turner <cotu...@loyno.edu> wrote:
>
>
> >In the dictionary the definition for gyp is:
>
> and BTW, Cory, when you respond to a Usenet posting there is NO NEED to
> copy (duplicate) your Usenet posting to the email box of the poster to
> which you are publicly responding. Bad practice and not advised by
> Usenet guidelines, makes you look like a newbie.
>
>
> (Your email address has now been killfiltered. If you wish to respond
> further do so via the newsgroup ONLY.)
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ronnie
>
Cory Turner
Mike Brown
> > Yada, yada ... Do you know the phrase "buyer beware?"
>
> What about the hope that there is an honest antique dealer? Or is that a
> null set?
The problem is that there are 100's of people out there who are
misrepresenting themselves as experienced dealers. These days people seem to
think they can watch two episodes of the Antiques Roadshow and become an
expert. Would you employ a plumber or electrician who had only read a book
from the library, I doubt it. Our recommendation to all would be to check
out the person selling, what is their experience, how long have they been in
business, does the story they are giving you sound as if they know what they
are talking about.
We've been in the trade for over twenty years and take pride in our history
of honest dealing, the majority (99%) of the (proper) dealers we know trade
in an honest fashion and many rely on word of mouth recommendation, you just
don't get far in any business if you rip people off all the time.
Don't paint all in the trade with the same brush.
Mike
Cal Beach
> But how does one get knowledge? I am not an expert on this. But here's
I know this will sound silly and overly sentimental, but I am always a
little hurt when people take any knowledge I might have about old things for
granted. You cannot become educated overnight, or even within two or three
years. My interest in old things started when I was eight or nine, picking
up artefacts around my uncle's barn. As I matured, so did my interest. Over
the past forty years, I put together a small, but respectable reference
library. I attend auctions and record selling prices in a data bank I
designed myself, and look on-line at what things go for. I visit museums
where I can look at things that I know are real. I have attended many
workshops and courses in refinishing and restoration. And, I have had my
share of "failures"; I have bought things that were not what they seemed to
me to be, and have accepted this as part of the learning process. All of
this is done because of a fascination with old things; I can't imagine
anyone sitting through auctions or rummaging around in an estate without
this fascination. My desk is a hundred years old, and sometimes I day dream
at it trying to imagine all the people that used it. I get the same feelings
looking at an old vase, or vintage fishing equipment I come across in an old
house. It is a happy coincidence that I have made a dollar or two. I know of
people that spend months making quilts they sell for little profit. There
must be something fascinating about spending hours over a loom with a needle
that I cannot see that keeps them at that activity, just as my fascination
drives me.
People that have known me a long while still have no appreciation for why I
can look at something and have a good idea what it is, or what it is worth.
They take it for granted I just read a book or two, and watch the Antiques
Roadshow each week. What is worse is that they become angry when I can't
teach them in a few hours how to tell good from bad. They think I am
harbouring some "hidden secret knowledge" I won't share for fear of loosing
money. Yet, everyone takes it for granted that in order to do the same thing
with paintings many years of schooling and experience are required, and
they see no problem with paying for that service.
> the thing... I got the thing and did some homework. If a dealer is going
> to put a relatively large price on something, shouldn't they do some
> homework too, or is is enought to say "I bought it as this, so it is
> this".
There are good dealers and poor ones, just like there are good priests and
poor priests. I believe you said the clerk told you the thing was not what
it appeared to be. At that point, you were in the "caveat emptor" gamble.
When people buy houses or used cars, they think nothing of paying for an
inspection to be sure everything is OK, or insisting the vendor does
something similar. If it was really important to you that what you got was
real, it would have been wise to find a real expert and pay him / her to
look at it prior to purchase. Otherwise, take it as a lesson on the road to
becoming an expert yourself. You likely still have something that looks nice
on a shelf, and it sounds like you learned a thing or two.
> My feeling is that when you go to a store, especially one who claims to
> run an honest operation, they should not simply have the philosophy "I got
> stuck with it, now you're stuck with it... deal with it or sell it to some
> other sap." Auctions should be different than antique dealers.
I suppose it depends on what kind of dealer you are taking about. Around
these parts, there are many "antique dealers" selling junk to a large
population of trend followers. People that know about old things are aware
of the difference between these shops and a serious dealer. Speaking only
for myself, I take my reputation pretty seriously. If I tell someone that
something is thus and so, I better be right or word gets around. And I have
made some errors in the past; fake silver hallmarks, Tiffany that isn't,
Quebec pine furniture that was really made in Ontario. When it happened, I
did what I thought was right and refunded the money. However, I have sold
things that I was not sure about, and I always tell people that. I will put
whatever price I think I can get on it, and say I am unsure what it is. I am
taking as much a chance as the buyer, and I have lost out in a few cases. I
do not go to the buyer and ask for more money because that is the risk I
take with an unknown I did not or could not research it properly. It
becomes part of the learning process. In the same vein, I won't refund
someone's money on an unknown if they end up with something less than they
thought they were getting. Personally, I thought that was all part of the
thrill of "treasure hunting"; sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. As
long as everyone knew up front the thing was an unknown. This seems to be
the case you have, more or less. The parts were old, but the whole was some
kind of compilation. Some 19th century furniture pretends to be 18th
century; it is still antique, but not what it seems. If it is just sold as
an "antique" and nothing else, and the dealer is not suggesting otherwise,
it is up to the buyer to know something more than the dealer if they are
treasure hunting.
> you pay more at the dealer than you would at an auction (in fact this item
> came from an auction). My question is why are certain dealers so lazy as
> to not research their larger ticket products BEFORE selling them? Oh, I
> forgot, they want to make money on thier mistakenly bought crap, so it
> doesn't matter what it is. I guess I've been around the wrong type of
> dealers all my life... ones who are helpful and try to be honest. Ones
> that, when a mistake is made, will work to make the customer happy.
Dealers are allowed to sell things they are not sure about. There could be
many reasons they could not do the research, and as long as they say they
don't know or are unsure what it is, so be it; pay the price or leave it. I
guess what I am saying is you shouldn't really try to be two things at once.
There is nothing wrong with "treasure hunting" in junk shops and trendy
antique places, as long as you are willing to take the good with the bad.
However, if you are a serious collector with limited knowledge, and want to
be sure about what you get, you have to pay the price in order to take all
the risk out of the purchase. I think as soon as the clerk told you there
may be doubt as to what the thing was, you should have left it if you were
not treasure hunting and sought some kind of expertise.
Then again, what do I know...
C.
Cory Turner
> The problem is that there are 100's of people out there who are
> misrepresenting themselves as experienced dealers. These days people
seem to
> think they can watch two episodes of the Antiques Roadshow and become an
> expert. Would you employ a plumber or electrician who had only read a
book
> from the library, I doubt it. Our recommendation to all would be to
check
> out the person selling, what is their experience, how long have they
been in
> business, does the story they are giving you sound as if they know what
they
> are talking about.
>
> We've been in the trade for over twenty years and take pride in our
history
> of honest dealing, the majority (99%) of the (proper) dealers we know
trade
> in an honest fashion and many rely on word of mouth recommendation, you
just
> don't get far in any business if you rip people off all the time.
>
> Don't paint all in the trade with the same brush.
>
> Mike
>
>
Trust me, I don't. I just wanted to get a picture of what people thought.
It appears that most of the people here are dealers that feel one way. I
know that there are some people, like you, who are honest. The problem is
finding the dealer, especially when you see something you like many miles
from home. You would hope that the ethical standards would be
wide-spread. Personally, I would not sell the piece as anything but a
conglomeration of antique pieces. I guess, I could sell it to someone as
an authentic machine, but I have more dignity than that. Personally, I
would accept the return if I sold something as one thing and it turned out
to be something else. What exactly is the loss? The dealer gets the
merchandise back, the buyer gets the money back and is happy and tells
everyone that the dealer is honest. The dealer who was cheated in the
beginning takes a loss, but I would hope (in a perfect world), they would
have a clear conscience. From my personal background, I (before this)
trusted most dealers, believing that they had some knowledge of what they
were selling and would be honest enough to back up their knowledge and
merchandise. Sure, profits have to be made and bills have to be paid, but
to what extent should one sacrifice their morality?
Lastly, it, in part, was my mistake for trusting that something was an
almost complete antique, rather than a put-together set of various antique
parts. Probably this person is in the business to rip people off. One
would hope that a person would have a passion for what business they are
involved in and be at least a little interested in their purchases
intended for sale... interested enough to do a little research. It was my
fault for trusting a business owner and their fault for not admitting to
the mistake and taking at least some responsibility.
I sincerely thank you for your response.
Cory Turner
Mike Wilcox
That one set's the alarm bells off from 50 feet away, the old " Six
foot- six" rule of conservators was you couldn't see the repairs from
six feet, but you should see them from six inches. In this case though
it is a marriage and not a restoration, but the bits are worth a few
bucks on their own. I don't know if you mentioned what you paid for it ,
but this might be a case of "the sum of it's parts being worth more than
the whole"
Mike Wilcox
Cory Turner
> You obviously know nothing of the antiques trade in the UK and Ireland,
> plus many other parts of Europe.
>
> Short answer. Yes.
I don't purchase non-American antiques.
Short answer. No.
> Fact remains you used the word "gypsies" in a derogatory manner.
> Directly or by implication, makes no difference.
Unfortunately, "Gypsy" in America is a derogatory term, in more times
than it is not. Most people of foreign origin here would not call
themselves gypsies for the negativity it would invoke.
There have been reports of people calling themselves "travelers" (who
have been referred to in the media as 'present-day gypsies') ripping
people off throughout America.
I guess we are just crazy Americans. Sorry if I insulted a segment of the
society.
>
> Plonk!!
>
Double plonk!!!
CT
Cory Turner
I have to admit that I was wrong about my posts on gypsies. Even though I
have not received any e-mails or responses to this post (except for the
juvenile flames of Mr. McKinley). The word gypsy was not used
intentionally to harrass or persecute any group of people... it was simply
meant to drive home a point. Not knowing that a certain group of people
may take pride in their heritage as a "gypsy."
For further information on gypsies:
http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/cultureintro.html
CT
Marshall Schuon
>
>"Cory Turner" <cotu...@loyno.edu> wrote in message
>news:Pine.A41.4.56.0307120841270.2990216@neo1...
>> But how does one get knowledge? I am not an expert on this. But here's
>
>
>I know this will sound silly and overly sentimental, but I am always a
>little hurt when people take any knowledge I might have about old things for
>granted. You cannot become educated overnight ...
________
Really good! And nicely put. Thanks, Cal.
Marshall
Jessica Vincent
"Tim Mullen" <t...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:benc2j$hpf$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> I'm not wieghing in one way or the other on the original
> question. I'd like to point out a useful link for anyone
> else thinking of buying ye olde antique sound machine:
>
> http://www.mainspringpress.com/crapo.html
>
> These hideous things are rampant. Along with "early"
> brass microscopes, tansits, etcetera, etcetera.
>
> --
> Tim Mullen
The crap-o-phone, new cast iron brackets & toys, repro Roseville & McCoy,
repro depression glass, new *old* garden urns, that sorta flo blue, rice
baskets...just a short list of the things I need to see in a shop to
discredit a dealer. <Unless it is sale table, sidewalk sale, want to get
rid of this crap we got out of an estate we bought merchandise> It disgusts
me that some low end dealers don't bother tell thier customers that the
things are new, I know several decorator types that point blank don't care
and will buy it anyway even if they are told that the goods are new. If the
dealers want to add this stuff as a side line, and do it honestly I have no
problem with it, but plead ignorance and offer it for the price of the real
thing...makes me want to tar and feather them. What's sad is that the
masses do deal with this variety of dealer because the majority of *casual
collectors* that are into antiques or rather quasi-antiques and collectables
don't have deep enough pockets to purchase the real treasures out there. If
they are willing to spend full price nothing wrong with selling the real
deal at full price even if it is a green depression glass canister rather
than a prized Rhode Island highboy.
Jessica
Tim Mullen
On the flip side are those gems of a dealer who are honest
to a fault. Several years ago my wife and I at the time were
browsing a local flea. I'd picked up one of those chrome
dish drainer bazingas, perfect for the "depression deco" look
I wanted for the kitchen. The dude comes hurrying over, and
the first thing out of his mouth is "That's not old." I could've
kissed him. It was well made, in perfect shape, and we got it
for a song. And, hell, it's a dish drainer -- I'm not expecting
it to be Elizabethan, or anything.
Although this guy didn't deal with early electrical stuff,
which is my main passion, I always made sure to check out his
table whenever we cruised through.
--
Tim Mullen
Tim Mullen
>That's the thing about my purchase. I know what the crap-o-phone looks
>like. This thing did not look like a crap-o-phone.
Hi Cory,
As I was typing my previous prose on this thread, I realized it
might be coming off as a bit of a dis in your direction. My main
intent was to take the opportunity to bring up the subject of the
crap-o-phone. I've been sometimes surprised to find collectors
well aware of reproductions in glass, pottery, furniture, meow-
meow-meow, but oblivious to the fact that gramophones have befallen
the same ugly fate.
I do have one thing to add about expectations of dealers'
knowledge. People who knowingly commit fraud suck, no doubt
about it. However, and I realize you're feeling this was =not=
the way it went down with you, a dealer who doesn't research
everything to death but instead remains happy with a modest
markup in order to move it out of the shop can be a boon to us
collectors.
Zemedelec
will think you are in faux-Galle heaven. I have never in my life seen so many
copies of his style, ranging from the really good to the ROTFL crappy. Mostly
all in the same big flea market, whose name for the moment I forget.
zemedelec