antique urns
Krista Toupin O'Reilly
I hope this isn't too off-topic, and also that it's not too ignorant :)
I've recently been given a gift of a beautiful pottery urn, partially
glazed, but most of the glaze has been worn away, from the looks of
things. It has with it an antique certificate, stating that it is a
Moroccan Tetuan urn, and classified as an antique piece. Now, I know
that such urns are hardly rare in Morocco, but what i really want to
know is just how old such an urn would have to be to be classified as
"antique". 100 years? 1000?
Any insight would be much, much appreciated. I adore this urn and
really want to know more about it.
Thanks in advance.
--
When we stop growing, we start dying.
-William S. Burroughs
Oozinsusan
Dear Krista Toupin O'Reilly ,
Whenever I see somthing that " has with it an antique certificate,
stating that it ..." I turn and run the other way. But this may be a bad old
habit.
Could you post a little more about the piece (For example: What does it
look like!?) and the certificate? This is a discussion group and we often find
ourselves without enough data. Imagine. It would be a little difficult to
tell the differnce between an orange and a lemon from a perhaps too concise
description.
Hope you will post right away!
Suze
Oozinsusan
You might like "The Holy Goof" author's name escaped me long ago. It's a
biography of Neal Cassiday, quite nice.
And were you really waiting for such a reply, no kidding? Lately the talk
around here has been that we tend to give the newcomer/info seeker short
shrift. Now I am thinking it might be true! And as we all know, thinking
hurts.
"Ale, man, ale's the stuff to drink
For fellows whom it hurts to think!
And malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man."
A. E. Housman
Now as for Moroccan antiques...it will have to be another to tell you what you
want to know. Have had a couple of supposedly 19th century Turkish pieces.
That is as far as I go on that line, which is nowhere.
"Everybody knows this is nowhere."
another Neal
Thanks for posting.
S
Ronnie McKinley
In rec.antiques Krista Toupin O'Reilly wrote:
>The certificate reads:
>
>ANTIQUE CERTIFICATE
>
>Moroccan Tetuan and Berber Urns
>
>This Tetuan urn from Morocco has been examined by an antique expert on behalf of
>the Australian Customs service and has been classified as an antique piece.
>
FWIW ...... imports into Australian that claim to be "antique" must meet
current custom regulations, that being, items must be 100 years old to
qualify. This is normal procedure and in the case of a container load of
goods coming into Australia all goods in the container are appraised.
Australian custom and excise are rather strict on this, however, the items
can be older that isn't their concern, or indeed the item may only be
80years old, depends how expert the "expert" was. It's unlikely however,
IMO that your urn/s came from a "dig" or they are "antiquaries" as the
export laws on such articles are extreme to say the least, if it was such
an article there would be much more than a mere "custom's" certificate.
Ronnie
mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~mckinley/index.htm
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Gillam Kerley
Krista Toupin O'Reilly wrote:
>
> The certificate reads:
>
> ANTIQUE CERTIFICATE
>
> Moroccan Tetuan and Berber Urns
>
> This Tetuan urn from Morocco has been examined by an antique expert on behalf of
> the Australian Customs service and has been classified as an antique piece.
>
If one takes the label at face value, what you have is essentially a
legal question: How old does something have to be in order for
Australian law to define it as an antique? Unless we have any
Australian antique dealers or importers lurking out there, I'd suggest a
phone call to Australian Customs.
I assume that being classified as an antique affects the amount of
duties paid (or, perhaps, a consumer protection measure -- wouldn't
that be nice) ; otherwise, why would Australian Customs care?
GK
P.S. Of course, if you learn that an antique (for Australian Customs
purposes) is anything 75 years old or older, that still doesn't tell you
whether your item is 75 or 750.
John-Henry Collinson
In article <34ba4d2b...@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>, Ronnie McKinley
<mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk> writes
>FWIW ...... imports into Australian that claim to be "antique" must meet
>current custom regulations, that being, items must be 100 years old to
>qualify. This is normal procedure and in the case of a container load of
>goods coming into Australia all goods in the container are appraised.
>Australian custom and excise are rather strict on this,
Lets see if I can make Ronnie M. scream:-)
I am afraid I am not as painstaking in my researches as Hugh Trevor-
Roper who was/is famous for the veracity of his authentications.
Whenever a customer wants a piece of paper, to accompany something he's
bought from us, to allow him to get it cheaply through Customs we will
give it to him; be it a certificate saying its a hundred years old or
whatever. We always insure that the customer knows the truth of the
matter. In 25 years of 'shonky' dealing we have never had any comeback
from any Customs authority.
My experience is that most dealers will do the same for their customers
if it is the difference between a sale and no sale.
Hence 100 year old Susie Cooper china.
--
John-Henry Collinson
Ronnie McKinley
In rec.antiques John-Henry Collinson wrote:
>Whenever a customer wants a piece of paper, to accompany something he's
>bought from us, to allow him to get it cheaply through Customs we will
>give it to him; be it a certificate saying its a hundred years old or
>whatever. We always insure that the customer knows the truth of the
>matter. In 25 years of 'shonky' dealing we have never had any comeback
>from any Customs authority.
>
>My experience is that most dealers will do the same for their customers
>if it is the difference between a sale and no sale.
>
>Hence 100 year old Susie Cooper china.
>--
This is not quite the same John-Henry. When a 46 foot container leaves our
shores bound for Oz, the customs at the port of entry, regardless of what
paper work accompanies that container, will inspect the goods, that is
usually by an independent Oz dealer. Not many shippers today will take a
chance in shipping non-descript non-100 years old goods to Oz it just isn't
worth the hassle, it a long way there and a long way back. As to 100 year
old Susie Cooper that is another story, and to be honest most times it's
unnecessary, this can be acceptable under the customs scope, as a work of
art attributable to a "collectible" 20th century artist, likewise, same
would apply to say Claire Cliff, Lalique, Moorcroft and many more, and
applies to all fine art and to most engraving or prints. You should know
this already if you are registered for VAT, same applies under the UK VAT
scope, doesn't have to be 100 years old before you can special scheme it or
0% rate it.
As the original poster stated .... "I know that the urn came from a local
shop, and that there were plenty of them (probably 30 or 40, all similar
but individual" .... therefore one can only guess (rightly or wrongly) that
these may well have been part of a larger consignment from overseas,
shipped legally. Shipping costs to Oz ain't cheap less than a 48 footer
isn't economical, and by and large goods going to Oz are of a better
standard than usually of that going to the States. But as I said in my
previous post there's no guarantee that these urns are 100 years old per
custom regs, depends on the so called expert, they could be only 80 years
old or even less, but do bear in mind Oz has stricter regs than most new
world countries.
What you are doing is illegal and by and large not really necessary these
days, certainly not to other European member states, and even to
individual merkins anything, old or new can of course be legally
exported/imported privately @ 0% rated VAT..... so I hope none of those
fatherless UK Custom and Excise folk subscribe to rec.antiques for your
sake ;) otherwise "knock, knock who's there" ...... "the VATman" :)
Gerald Clough
John-Henry Collinson wrote:
>
> Lets see if I can make Ronnie M. scream:-)
>
> I am afraid I am not as painstaking in my researches as Hugh Trevor-
> Roper who was/is famous for the veracity of his authentications.
>
Same Hugh Trevor-Roper who first, along with Gerhard Weinberg, declared
the bogus Hitler Diaries to be genuine? :)
> Whenever a customer wants a piece of paper, to accompany something he's
> bought from us, to allow him to get it cheaply through Customs we will
> give it to him; be it a certificate saying its a hundred years old or
> whatever. We always insure that the customer knows the truth of the
> matter. In 25 years of 'shonky' dealing we have never had any comeback
> from any Customs authority.
>
> My experience is that most dealers will do the same for their customers
> if it is the difference between a sale and no sale.
>
> Hence 100 year old Susie Cooper china.
> --
> John-Henry Collinson
--
Gerald Clough clo...@texas.net
"Nothing has any value unless you know you can give it up."
Chrisso Boulis
Krista Toupin O'Reilly (gal...@clear.net.nz) wrote:
: I hope this isn't too off-topic, and also that it's not too ignorant :)
: I've recently been given a gift of a beautiful pottery urn, partially
: glazed, but most of the glaze has been worn away, from the looks of
: things. It has with it an antique certificate, stating that it is a
: Moroccan Tetuan urn, and classified as an antique piece. Now, I know
: that such urns are hardly rare in Morocco, but what i really want to
: know is just how old such an urn would have to be to be classified as
: "antique". 100 years? 1000?
Use of the term "antique" is extremely relative, though the 100 year
mininum is generally a starting point. Less than 100, an object
may be just "collectible."
On the more "humorous" front . . .
our Mediterranean Section considers anything which dates after the
fall of the Roman Empire to be "MODERN"
Our Egyptian Section considers anything dating after 600 BC to be
MODERN.
Our European Section considers anything after the Neolithic to be
MODERN.
And our Near East Section once told be that they "don't use dates -
It's easier that way!"
Don't you love history????
C.E.S. Boulis
University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology
Krista Toupin O'Reilly
Oozinsusan wrote:
> Whenever I see somthing that " has with it an antique certificate,
> stating that it ..." I turn and run the other way.
I can understand this.
> Could you post a little more about the piece (For example: What does it
> look like!?) and the certificate?
I was just testing the waters with that post, hoping for a response like yours :),
so here's a bit more detail:
I know that the urn came from a local shop, and that there were plenty of them
(probably 30 or 40, all similar but individual). It is quite small - maybe 6
inches in height, and has the look of maybe a water jug ( I really have no idea!);
it's about 4 inches in diameter at it's widest point, two-handled, stout, with a
slightly rounded base so that I'm hesitant to set it down anywhere, and is made of
a very heavy material which almost seems like stone, but the feel of it is
definitely (to my uninformed touch) pottery. It's chipped and marked and generally
marred in various places, and very little of the original glaze remains (only a
reasonable amount of it surives on the inside of the urn, and around the "lip" at
the top) and it actually looks as though it's come out of a dig site of some sort,
although I know that's unlikely.
The certificate reads:
ANTIQUE CERTIFICATE
Moroccan Tetuan and Berber Urns
This Tetuan urn from Morocco has been examined by an antique expert on behalf of
the Australian Customs service and has been classified as an antique piece.
(with a seal underneath).
I live in New Zealand, so it's not really surprising to have an Australian
certificate.
Thanks for your post, in any case, and for not running the other way :)
Ernest Bramah
Gillam Kerley wrote:
> Krista Toupin O'Reilly wrote:
> >
> > The certificate reads:
> >
> > ANTIQUE CERTIFICATE
> >
> > Moroccan Tetuan and Berber Urns
> >
> > This Tetuan urn from Morocco has been examined by an antique expert on behalf of
> > the Australian Customs service and has been classified as an antique piece.
> >
> > (with a seal underneath).
>
> If one takes the label at face value, what you have is essentially a
> legal question: How old does something have to be in order for
> Australian law to define it as an antique?
100 years is the magic figure for clocks so the same for pots would be a good guess
John-Henry Collinson
In article <34BA81...@texas.net>, Gerald Clough
<clough...@texas.net> writes
>Same Hugh Trevor-Roper who first, along with Gerhard Weinberg, declared
>the bogus Hitler Diaries to be genuine? :)
--
John-Henry Collinson
Suxcess
Gillam Kerley wrote:
> --snip--
> I assume that being classified as an antique affects the amount of
> duties paid (or, perhaps, a consumer protection measure -- wouldn't
> that be nice) ; otherwise, why would Australian Customs care?
Australian Customs might care because it's illegal in many countries to
export / import antiquities without the proper licensure to prevent loss
of a country's history (e.g. Egyptian items in British Museums).