Davenport Art Guide-Anyone have?
Mary miller
I have spent an incredible amount of time researching three old
prints and a signed oil painting I have. (thankyou again Tsu ) .
I know who they are by, approximatly when they were done, how they
were done and where they were done. An old print message board led me
to someone who told me which book my prints originated in and how many
known restrikes existed(three).I know the different intaglio processes ,
how they are done and which kind mine are.(handcolored aquatints.) The
artist is Henry Alken ( British 1747-1850 ) A hand-colored
aquatint by Henry Alken size approx.9in.X11in. sold for $88 at auction
in the Standard Fine Art Value guide from 1987. That print had damage,
mine do not. I know my painting is actually a silk screen and brush
combination. (mixed media) The artist is J. Florit, a spanish painter
who was schooled at Escuela Bellas Artes Barnes. I think the next
information means it was sold at this gallery Premiso Cadeques. The
painting is titled "Fiesta" and measures approx. 3ft.X2ft.
Now here's my problem, One dealer I called slipped and said J. Florit
was listed in the Davenport Price Guide. She would tell me nothing else
except she does not make offers, and cannot divulge information over the
phone. She lives in Chicago, I live in Shingletown California.``pop.
5000 I cannot find a copy of Davenports ANYWHERE. Even the College
library 35 miles away doesn't have it. I'm not seeking an appraisal per
se, just the current information on the research I've done. I'd hate to
have it all come to a dead end , especially since I have placed them in
the hands of a local dealer for inspection. I promise to contribute as
much as I can to others seeking info at this site in the future. Any
information about J. Florit or H. Alken will be greatly appreciated, but
auction results will have my undying gratitude.
Thankyou in advance
Proud mari
Ronnie McKinley
>
>Any
>information about J. Florit or H. Alken will be greatly appreciated
Mary, I can't give your prices for Henry Alken, simply ring Christie's
and talk to their print department, however, and, I don't wish to
burst you bubble but all that glitters isn't gold or even silver. :>
The difference between a period Alken print and a later reproduced one
is night and day. Alken (1785-1851) was a sporting painter and
watercolourist and the best known of the Alken family of sporting
artists. Henry was born in London and first studied with J.H. Barber,
a painter of miniature portraits. Alken was a keen huntsman and showed
a real knowledge and love of hunting in his pictures and prints. At
first, he produced his hunting prints anonymously, signing them Ben
Tally Ho, but it was not long before the secret was out. Although a
prolific painter and watercolourist of hunting, coaching and shooting
scenes, Alken became well known through his many sporting prints,
which were mostly published by Fores. After 1820 the quality of
Alken's work declined, it became dull and repetitive and he died in
poverty in Highgate in 1851.
He is known to have had at least two sons, Henry Jnr. and Seffrien,
who imitated his style closely. The work of Henry Jnr., who signed H.
Alken as well, has never been satisfactorily distinguished from the
late work of his father. He probably used the signature H. Alken in
order to pass his pictures off as his father's. Seffrien Alken signed
S. Alken and is usually confused with Samuel Alken Snr. Two other
Alkens, George and Samuel Junior, are recorded, but practically
nothing is known about them.
In the UK, Alken prints have been reproduced for many years, and
re-strikes made from old plates, many have been hand-coloured by
others. I think it would be safe to say MOST have been hand-coloured
by others. Alken prints (repros and re-strikes) are numerous over
here, they sell mainly to the decorators or home improvement as
decorative prints, the subject matter is of course all the rage.
Originals, paintings, watercolours and his period prints are a
different ball game altogether, these are highly collected (as all of
this style/type of subject matter is) and in demand, prices can be
fairly high, if an original. Prints of course at the lower end of the
market.
As I suggested at the beginning of this post, contact Christie's for
further enlightenment, or get a hold of the 'British Art Index'
current edition, this will list all Alken material sold at auction
during the past season, this books is updated each year and draws its
source from the previous season.
I hope you print is an original, but don't hold your breath. :)
Ronnie
=====
Mary miller
Ronnie wrote: don't mean to burst your bubble...all that glitters is not
gold, or even silver...call Christies' for recent auction results...hope
your print is original, but don't hold your breath.
Ronnie,
Thank you for the great biograghical information on H. Alken. You are
obviously quite knowlegable on this particular subject.
Why you feel the need to add your condescending remarks puzzles me. You
seem to assume that every inquiry to this ng is from a clueless newbie
looking for a free appraisal.
Perhaps a little biograghical info on yourself would give others a clue
to your obviously superior than we attitude.
In a previous response you mentioned your age as 28. I have a son the
same age. As a woman old enough to be your mother, with 37 years
associated with the buying and selling of antiques( my mother had a shop
in 1962) I believe qualifies me as your peer.
Before posting my request for research assistance, I made sure that I
knew as much as possible about the items being researched. You may be
interested to know that knowlegeble people are sprinkled around the
internet who will actually enjoy explaining the difference of early vs
later prints and other antiques as well.
I assure you Ronnie, my bubble isn't burst. The $88 auction result I
quoted should have told you I wasn't expecting my stradavarius
to be a Stradivarius! To assume that all who enter here are worthy of
your scorn , is to belittle all the knowlege you and your group have
accumulated prior to this forum. Even the Antique Roadshow proves that
out of the thousands of items brought for appraisal, a few are truly
exquisite treasures totally unexpected to either appraisor or owner. I'm
sure your sarcasm (I went back and read your previous 20 or so
responses) has stopped any farther research on the part of the people
who posted.
I made sure I read the FAQS twice, followed along for at least ten
days of (quite silly banter ) and made my first request for information
as instructed. Tsu Dho Nimn gave me a quick informative response. When
he gave a very polite response (and totally valid way to find out if the
violin was genuine) you actually insulted HIM. Once again Ronnie, what
makes you so superior to the rest of us? I'm sure we're all waiting for
an answer. .
Proud Mari
Tracy Doyle
Mary miller wrote:
>
> In his response to Davenport Art Guide-Anyone have..
> Ronnie wrote: don't mean to burst your bubble...all that glitters is not
> gold, or even silver...call Christies' for recent auction results...hope
> your print is original, but don't hold your breath.
>
> Ronnie,
> Thank you for the great biograghical information on H. Alken. You are
> obviously quite knowlegable on this particular subject.
> Why you feel the need to add your condescending remarks puzzles me. You
> seem to assume that every inquiry to this ng is from a clueless newbie
> looking for a free appraisal.
[snip]
> I made sure I read the FAQS twice, followed along for at least ten
> days of (quite silly banter ) and made my first request for information
> as instructed. Tsu Dho Nimn gave me a quick informative response. When
> he gave a very polite response (and totally valid way to find out if the
> violin was genuine) you actually insulted HIM. Once again Ronnie, what
> makes you so superior to the rest of us? I'm sure we're all waiting for
> an answer. .
> Proud Mari
Dear Mari...
I don't know where you got the idea that Ronnie was insulting you.
Saying that a piece which is frequently copied may be a copy is sound
advice. We have no way of knowing whether or not a new poster would be
aware of that. We thank you for reading the FAQs and respecting them.
Please do not take anything anyone may say to you on a newsgroup
personally. People are responding to your post, not YOU as an
individual. Believe me, sit around here for awhile and see how many
people come up with "genuine" Strads, etc. It will give one a bit of an
attitude, and to not mention the possibility of something being a copy
(a.k.a. fake) would be remiss on the part of the respondent.
Please take a deep breath and realize that Ronnie was giving you a very
sound warning and I'm sure no offense was intended.
RAGards,
Tracy
--
To respond via e-mail, remove the characters "NospaM" from the address.
13 Ghosts
You seem to be saying, Mary, that it is NOT a restrike,
have I got that right?
But if it IS a restrike, then
phrases like "all that glitters is not gold"
would be perfectly fitting, would they not?
13 Ghosts
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Ronnie McKinley
>Why you feel the need to add your condescending remarks puzzles me.
It seems to me you don't really know what you have. So here is some
more condescending remarks. Over here, Alken PRINTS are a dime a
dozen, over the years I have (like 1000s and 1000s of other dealers)
bought and sold Alken prints, they are nothing special, just good
decorative stock and currently (SUBJECT MATTER) very fashionable,
especially coaching prints, think of Christmas cards. My remarks are
not merely for your benefit alone (for that you would need to pay me)
but for others that may be confused on the subject, they may at a
later point turn up an Alken print and think ... "oh yes Mary Miller
has one of these" .. "I'm unto a winner here" .... when in fact, they
may have a normal run-of-the-mill re-strike, 19th c, 1920s 1960s or
whatever, of little or no importance, just a decorator. Sentiment
doesn't come into it on the open market, totally irrelevant.
Why you are messing about is beyond me, my advice was to take it to
Christie's and they will confirm in the twinkle of an eye, if it is a
****PERIOD**** Alken print or a later repro or re-strike. Is this
condescending advice? I told you most period Alken prints were
published by Fores, is YOURS? Or do you disbelieve me? The difference
is night and day. The value is unimportant to me, did I mention value?
I advised you to seek out the British Art Index, which is commonly
known as the BIBLE and lists accurately REAL prices realized from the
previous season at auction, is this bullshite?
Now, to most others here, I think my remark as to being 27 would have
been clearly viewed as a joke, with a jag, tongue in the cheek,
banter, messing about, having a gag, a bit of craic. I'm truly sorry
if it's all whooshing over you head. I gave you IMNSHO sound advice,
along with a little background info on Alken, who I may add is not
some obscure artist but was a **prolific** producer well known and
extremely easily recognized, one would not need an art history degree
to determine his work, at a 100 paces one could spot an Alken. His
stuff is/was widely reproduced, by the bucket load.
I really don't know WHAT you want .... blood perhaps? I hope someone
else can determine precisely as to what you seek and provide the
answer that will please and satisfy you, regardless of truth or of
personal opinion. I somehow doubt Tsu Dho Nimn will come up with the
answers, as he/she probably does even know who Alken was, let alone
EVER owned or sold such a thing. As to the "Stradivarius" ?? I believe
ALL are accounted for, but I'm sure Tsu Dho Nimn can confirm that even
from the armchair.
Anyways ...... No problem Mari, I hope you and the Alken live happily
ever after.
Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Ronnie
=====
Colin Clarke
>been clearly viewed as a joke, with a jag, tongue in the cheek,
>banter, messing about, having a gag, a bit of craic. I'm truly sorry
>if it's all whooshing over you head.
when you are about to tell a joke or pull their leg. No practical jokes
aloud.
Colin Clarke, sagacious Tasmanian.
Ronnie McKinley
>Hey Ronnie don't you know that you're s'posed to tell the American listener
>when you are about to tell a joke or pull their leg. No practical jokes
>aloud.
Hey, Colin, next time I'll whisper the jokes. ;))))))) sorry I'm an
evil bastard and couldn't resist. It's great when ya don't use the
grammar checker .. eh wot!! can always nip in with a witty retort :)))
Anyways, I not so sure I totally agree with you. I receive at least
several jokes, silly stories, and plain good fun nonsense daily to my
e-mail box, and all provided by a few funny and good humoured
Americans from this very ng. It brightens the day and they are truly
people with genuine humour. I have one pending in my e-mail box at the
moment ... from an ex-Yankee, hope it's better than the titty one ;>
I think it's more a case of, the public get what the public want, and
if they don't get it the way they want it, then all hell is to pay.
I am planning to be a lair from now on. That'll teach 'em :)
Ronnie
=====
Mary miller
My dearest Ronnie,
I don't want your blood, my ancestors did that for me. If you read 1st
post carefully, you wouldn't need to ask what it was I wanted.
I asked #1, any biograghical information on Alken or Florit. Your review
of Alkens life was sincerely appreciated.(good answer! good answer!)
#2, Does anyone have access to Davenports Art Guide?, this appears to
be where our failure to communicate began. Sometimes dear Ronnie, there
is a simple yes or no answer,
Your comments regarding others reading these posts are well taken, and
far be it from me to send some misinformed print owner screaming Eureka!
to the nearest Christys'
saying "but Mari Miller had one..."
I felt I eliminated this possibility by including just how much
information I had garnered
on these items prior to my post. I'm sure we agree that few people will
take the time to do the legwork necessary to establishing the actual
value or provenence of a piece.
Since you were kind enough to include information beyond my request,
including a
brief glossary of English lingo regarding Whooosh....underhanded
overheading might work for some...I assure you I'm not an unarmed
adversary. Oh, by the way, no, they are not Fores. I do know without
professionl advice my old stuff remains just that...old stuff.
even in YHO. frankly, even in your paid opinion I'd get a second one..If
anyone out there has an Alken print(technically an aquatint in my case),
our next step is getting a professioal method of dating an item by the
composition of the paper.
I'd ask Ronnie, but he admits he's gong to be a "LAIR" from here on.
Hope I haven't soured the Limeys' sense of humour, it wasn't that bloody
funny to stot with,
your friend, Mari
Ronnie McKinley
>.If
>anyone out there has an Alken print(technically an aquatint in my case),
How have you determined it's an aquatint??
>our next step is getting a professioal method of dating an item by the
>composition of the paper.
Have you tried carbon dating ;>)))
Mari ..... ass and elbow spring to mind, I wonder why?
ROTFLOL
Ronnie
=====
Ronnie McKinley
>Hope I haven't soured the Limeys' sense of humour, it wasn't that bloody
>funny to stot with,
Oops ... btw, I don't know why you are trying to drag our English
colleagues into this, none of them, so far, have opened their mouths.
Ronnie
=====
13 Ghosts
> our next step is getting a professioal method of dating an item by the
> composition of the paper.
==
How are you going to accomplish this?
Mary miller
"How have you determined it's an aquatint?'
Well, Ronnie,
How nice of you to ask. My first step was to examine it closely for a
dot-matrix pattern. Thus eliminating the more modern form print
technique. step #2 look for tiny lines and criss-crossing to eliminate
copper, steel and other traditional engraving techniques. #3 Found
online site specializing in old prints, and went immediately to their
glossary of additional printing techniques. step #4 since my print was
clearly an intaglio process, Plain etching was eliminated by the
appearance of 'tiny islands' with
combination granular areas as well as engaving on the finer details, I
narrowed it down to either an aquatint or a mezzotint. step #5 hand
coloring (quite common) was easily established by slight absorbtion
areas and tiny overshot areas. step #6 Went to old print message board.
Saw someone seeking to buy mezzotints. E'd him of my ignorance as to
mezzo vs aqua. He responded quite quickly, telling me the provenence of
my prints based apon the titlesBeagles-Fox Hounds and Terriers. He has
book from 1929 that details my prints in regards to medium (aquatint)
restrikes-up to that time 1881 1883 and 1903, (mine is published by T.
McLean of London Jan. 1 1880. ) the 1881 restrike contained the original
1880 date according to my mezzo source. He didn't say if this was true
of the later restrikes. He did not give,(nor did I ask) any price
range . step #7 local library, found H. Alken aquatints listed in
Standard Art Guide. Step #8 Found semi local art appraise\buyer. asked
me if color level was bright and clear or slightly dull, almost grayish
in appearance. I told him the latter. On his urging, dropped them off at
a midway destination point. Got receipt from
proprieter. Rushed home to ask rec antiques for current auction guide
update. Actually I left out a few steps, but thats beside the point.
Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some research to do regarding the
carbon dating process.:>) Re: asses and elbows, is this something
akin to shite from Shinola?
Re: English colleagues, If my assumption of uk was in err forgive me,
but you alone were the target of any slings and arrows I may have tossed
back. (personal note) geog. lesson, step one...
nice chatting ,
Mari
charl...@my-deja.com
or a non-art dealer to keep around. I would love to have one myself
but I have other uses for a yearly outlay of $175.
Fortunately for people like me, there's an online source of art prices
realized at auction: www.adec.com. It's not free, but it is quite
reasonably priced.
Charleen
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Ronnie McKinley
>Rushed home to ask rec antiques for current auction guide
>update.
Over to you, 13.
Ronnie
=====
Ronnie McKinley
>My first step was to examine it closely for a
>dot-matrix pattern. Thus eliminating the more modern form print
>technique. step #2 look for tiny lines and criss-crossing to eliminate
>copper, steel and other traditional engraving techniques. #3 Found
>online site specializing in old prints, and went immediately to their
>glossary of additional printing techniques. step #4 since my print was
>clearly an intaglio process, Plain etching was eliminated by the
>appearance of 'tiny islands' with combination granular areas as well
>as engaving on the finer details, I narrowed it down to either an aquatint
> or a mezzotint.
For those that may be following this thread, which I doubt very much,
the following are brief definitions of the terms and processes used in
the above post, submitted by, Mari. It may help with the plot, and
hopefully aid in arriving at a conclusion reference the above 4 steps
as detailed by, Mari
Aquatint, a variety of etching widely used by printmakers to achieve a
broad range of tonal values. The process is called aquatint because
finished prints often resemble watercolour drawings or wash drawings.
The technique consists of exposing a copperplate to acid through a
layer of granulated resin or sugar. The acid bites away the plate only
in the interstices between the resin or sugar grains, leaving an
evenly pitted surface that yields broad areas of tone when the grains
are removed and the plate is printed. An infinite number of tones can
be achieved by exposing various parts of the plate to acid baths of
different strengths for different periods of time. Etched or engraved
lines are often used with aquatint to achieve greater definition of
form. Many contemporary printmakers also use pressurized plastic
sprays in place of resin.
Intaglio, in visual arts, one of the four major classes of printmaking
techniques, distinguished from the other three methods (relief
printing, stenciling, and lithography) by the fact that the ink
forming the design is printed only from recessed areas of the plate.
Among intaglio techniques are engraving, etching, drypoint, aquatint,
and mezzotint. The most important piece of equipment in intaglio
printing is the etching press, a simple machine whose basic principle
has not changed for centuries.
Mezzotint, also called Black Manner, a method of engraving a metal
plate by systematically and evenly pricking its entire surface with
innumerable small holes that will hold ink and, when printed, produce
large areas of tone. The pricking of the plate was originally done
with a roulette (a small wheel covered with sharp points), but later
an instrument called a cradle, or rocker, was used. It resembles a
small spade with a toothed edge, and its cutting action throws up
rough ridges of metal called burrs. The burrs are scraped away in
places intended to be white in the finished print. In the 20th
century, the plate is often roughened by working over it in several
directions with a carborundum stone. The technique is laborious and,
consequently, unsuitable for original work. But its rich blacks, its
subtle gradations of tone, and especially its adaptability to making
colour prints made it ideal for the reproduction of paintings.
Etching, a method of making prints from a metal plate, usually copper,
into which the design has been incised by acid. The copperplate is
first coated with an acid-resistant substance, called the etching
ground, through which the design is drawn with a sharp tool. The
ground is usually a compound of beeswax, bitumen, and resin. The plate
is then exposed to nitric acid or dutch mordant, which eats away those
areas of the plate unprotected by the ground, forming a pattern of
recessed lines. These lines hold the ink, and, when the plate is
applied to moist paper, the design transfers to the paper, making a
finished print. In the variety of etching known as aquatint, a
copperplate is exposed to acid through a layer of granulated resin or
sugar, leaving an evenly pitted surface that yields broad areas of
tone when the grains are removed and the plate is printed. Etching and
aquatint are often combined in a print by means of successive workings
of its plate.
Ronnie
======
"my lips are sealed"
===============
Mary
I've been following the argument every step of the way -- up to and
including dragging an old print on mine outside in the bright sunlight
to try to identify what exact process it is. My money is currently on
aquatint.
Thank you for carrying on in public.
Mary
13 Ghosts
"I narrowed it down to either an aquatint
or a mezzotint. "
Well, the above statement really bothers me.
If you DO know what an aquatint is and you DO know
what a mezzotint is, then you CAN tell the difference
between the two. See? How could you know
what they are if you can't tell the difference?
And what about my question about the paper?
Thanks,
13
Mary miller
www.adec.com.
Charleen,
You're the scond person to tell me about this site. the first
e-mailed me personally and I wasn't sure if it was kosher to pass along
e-mailed info. Now that it's been posted, a lot of people are sure to
benifit by it. Thanks for sharing,
Mari
Mary miller
You're really digging deep to meet Ronnies' challenge aren't you. If
you'll go back to my earlier post, You'll note I was able to eliminate
mezzotint by contacting a buyer of mezzotints.
HE was able to establish through historical data that these particular
plates were originally done in the aquatint process. Until I have a
genuine mezzotint to compare with what I do have, I can only rely on the
authority of an actual mezzotint collector. If this troubles you, I'm
sorry.
Now to answer you twice asked question regarding how I intend to 'date"
the prints using the paper as a clue, I clearly stated that finding a
proffessional method was in order. I in no way referred to myself as
having this wisdom readily available. Ronnies suggestion of carbon
dating
could just be jacking me around. That's how much I know on the subject.
If you are still troubled, you might lead me to a site that gives valid
ways of studying the paper, not the image.
Oh, if Ronnie was suggesting you pounce on my statement "raced home for
auction update" let me stop the Aha free appraisal" shpiel in
advance.Knowing if a painter is listed anywhere is knowledge. In this
business, knowledge is power. Thank you for your concern, I don't like
to trouble people. (LOLROTF)
Mari
Gillam Kerley
> Now to answer you twice asked question regarding how I intend to 'date"
> the prints using the paper as a clue, I clearly stated that finding a
> proffessional method was in order. I in no way referred to myself as
> having this wisdom readily available. Ronnies suggestion of carbon
> dating
> could just be jacking me around. That's how much I know on the subject.
Well, Mary, I know only one thing more than you do. He's definitely
jacking you around. Your print might be antique, but it's not an
archeological find.
> If you are still troubled, you might lead me to a site that gives valid
> ways of studying the paper, not the image.
There are certainly experts familiar with the types of paper used over
the centuries; an art museum can probably recommend one. (A good forger
will use old paper, so dating the paper is no guarantee of the age of
the art.) I don't know of any do-it-yourself guide to dating paper;
doesn't mean there isn't one out there. For some reason, though, this
approach strikes me as overkill, unless you've first determined that the
image is fully consistent with an original.
GK
Richard Ward
reasonable, there are chemical labs out there that will be able to get a
pretty good date from the oxidation of the paper and especially the ink. If
you have a good sized law library around you, most state bar associations
put out reference books (actually lists of paid advertisements) that list
expert witnesses, and they do usually include labs that do dating for
document authentication purposes. I would be surprised if a company that
specialized in dating paper and ink for document authentication purposes
would have any problem dating your print. What I can't guarantee is what it
would cost, but it seems you've already made a bit of an investment in this
anyway.
Just a thought.
Mary miller
Even with a snappy comeback to your last post ready to let fly, I was
touched by the (I hope) sincere followup that beat me to the post. As
far as specific field of antique interests are concerned, my favorite
would be whatever I am researching at the time.
The most abundant items readily findable in my neck of the woods,
(Shingletown California) seem to be early California pottery. Since I
grew up in S. California where most of these early potteries were
located, I can usually spot
a peice before anyone else at the local yard sales. I do not claim to be
an expert, but at one time or another I've had in my possesion at least
one example from each of the potteries listed in the Guide to Cal.
Pottery . If I chose to collect instead of selling for profit, the 20's
and 30's would be my choice. Personally, I like almost everything over
75 yrs. old except my men,
best wishes, LOL
Mari
Mary miller
.
Richard wrote: you seem to have a lot already invested....
The amount I pay for anything is rarely to be considered much of an
investment. In regards to proving the authenticity of a piece and the
time necessary to do so is an extreme investment. The satisfaction of
finding, identifing and selling for actual worth?
priceless!
High market on an early aquatint is around $100.An aquatint of
Beagles? depends.
The worthless turn of the century snapshots of an old house that later
became a bed and breakfast, I sold for a thousand dollars to the current
owner, Finding the only person in the world that would probably be
interested in them
paid off.
My study of prints is currently finished. I'll post the price offered
by the dealer when I get it. Thanks for the tips on identifying paper,
If a truly worthwhile item should come my way, I'll keep them in mind.
Mari
Mike Wilcox
Hi Charleen, the adec is indeed a good source of prices for paintings,
prints, sculpture and photography, but a bit pricey if you buy the CD
(399.00). The online version is a steal though at .50- $ 1.00 per
inquiry. For anyone that doesn't specialize in art it sure beats
plunking down a couple of hundred dollars every year on soon to be
outdated information.
--
Mike Wilcox
"Free Appraisal's are like free beer, they always want more"
Visit Antique's 101 Via our site at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/wilcox.hall.2ndcentury
13 Ghosts
miller) wrote:
> Gee Ghost,
> You're really digging deep to meet Ronnies' challenge aren't you. If
> you'll go back to my earlier post, You'll note I was able to eliminate
> mezzotint by contacting a buyer of mezzotints.
> HE was able to establish through historical data that these particular
> plates were originally done in the aquatint process. Until I have a
> genuine mezzotint to compare with what I do have, I can only rely on the
> authority of an actual mezzotint collector. If this troubles you, I'm
> sorry.
> the prints using the paper as a clue, I clearly stated that finding a
> proffessional method was in order. I in no way referred to myself as
> dating
> could just be jacking me around. That's how much I know on the subject.
> ways of studying the paper, not the image.
> auction update" let me stop the Aha free appraisal" shpiel in
> advance.Knowing if a painter is listed anywhere is knowledge. In this
> business, knowledge is power. Thank you for your concern, I don't like
> to trouble people. (LOLROTF)
> Mari
Dear Mari,
Knowing the what a mezzotint is and knowing
what an aquatint is is not digging deep, Mari.
These are the basics.
13 Ghosts
13 Ghosts
OK, how about this then, let's talk
about something else. Pick a subject
you are good in and let's see if we
can drum up some actual discussion
about actual antiques. If it is something
that I know nothing about, that's OK,
someone here is bound to have some
questions for you.
What do you say?
Marshall Schuon
wrote:
>
>"I narrowed it down to either an aquatint
> or a mezzotint. "
>===
>Well, the above statement really bothers me.
>If you DO know what an aquatint is and you DO know
>what a mezzotint is, then you CAN tell the difference
>between the two. See? How could you know
>what they are if you can't tell the difference?
>
>And what about my question about the paper?
>Thanks,
>13
Hey, T (for Thirteen) -- I think you have the wrong Mary here. This
is Mary of her father's old diaries and other tales.
Marshall
13 Ghosts
The only thing that comes to mind is an Alladin's lamp
looking, cobalt blue Bauer ringware teapot I had once that
I got a pot of money for. It seems the trick with them was
that they are mostly found missing their lids. This particular one
came with the lid taped down with old looking Scotch tape
and that is probably the only reason it had its lid. Poor design,
if you ask me.
And I had a few pieces of Catalina, not the early best stuff, but
the later stuff that looks kind of like late Cowan. Did fairly well
with that. As a matter of fact I have never seen any of the early
stuff (Catalina Island). Is it anything to brag about in terms of
technique and beauty
or it is just pricey because it is/was close to Los Angeles and
all that big California money?
The one thing I have seen that might fall in the category that
was beautiful was some stuff that is marked either
California Faience or California Majolica,
(I can hear our Eurpoean cousins groaning) but really, it is well made,
good looking (if 20th Century) stuff.
The few pieces I have seen, anyway.
Here in the mid-West a lot of things turn up, things you
wouldn't think would, but not nearly as much California
pottery as you might think.
I will bet I know why that is. More people
moved from the Mid West to California
than moved from California to the Mid West.
And just for good measure, I am going to give you
a tip. This does not always work, but it works often
enough to be worth doing.
Wnen you are writing your post, try to leave a space
for the next person to say something. Ask a question
or make a reference to something interesting that
maybe was NOT the subject you just wrote about...
Am I making my point at all? It works a lot like polite
conversation at a wedding reception. Eveybody has
a drink in their hand and nobody knows everybody
and a lot of people don't know anybody much and
nearly everyone wants to talk to the people around
them but they are not all social smoothies. So try to
give them a break, sometimes, and in your writing
make some sort of effort to facilitate the ongoing-ness
of the conversation. But like Dustin Hoffman said in
Little Big Man,
"Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't."
13 Ghosts
Long winded, eh?
Mary miller
Long winded but well taken. Too tired to
respond in manner that your post
deserves. What in the hell diaries is Marshall
talking about?
Til tomorrow,
Mari
Marshall Schuon
________
Ah, I think I goofed. Thought the Ghost-post had mixed you up with
Mary (not Mari), since it was addressed to "Mary" and since she had
just posted to the thread. Never m-i-i-n-d. And sorry, T.
Marshall
(Incidentally, the diaries are a wonderful series of daily diaries
from the century's teen years that Mary posts on occasion.)
Colin Clarke
says...
>
>In rec.antiques, Colin Clarke wrote:
>
>>Hey Ronnie don't you know that you're s'posed to tell the American listener
>>when you are about to tell a joke or pull their leg. No practical jokes
>>aloud.
>
>
>I am planning to be a lair from now on. That'll teach 'em :)
>
>
>
>Ronnie
>=====
Hi Ronnie, in my neck of the woods a 'lair' is, as well as a place where
something nasty lurks, a person of objectionally bad manners who shows off to
excess. Some time the epiphet MUG precedes lair... But I'm sure that
description wouldn't fit you,would it.;<) or is it the syntax checker not
being turned on.
Colin Clarke. nitpicking Tasmanian
,
Esengo
>I've been following the argument every step of the way -- up to and
>including dragging an old print on mine outside in the bright sunlight
>to try to identify what exact process it is. My money is currently on
>aquatint.
>
>Thank you for carrying on in public.
>
I just want to say......Welcome to Rec.antiques Mari! You've held up
well....you did your homework, you presented your case and then you responded
articulately to the inevitable smacking around that takes place here.
Once you hang around for awhile you will start to recognize names and
personalities....sometimes it makes it easier to understand the words (and
their intent) when you don't have the benefit of voice inflection, facial
expression, and general body language to help.
Thank you, Charleen, for the on-line art price guide. I will copy out
the info. for future reference.
See ya!
Fayette
Ronnie McKinley
>>Ronnie
>>=====
>Hi Ronnie, in my neck of the woods a 'lair' is, as well as a place where
>something nasty lurks, a person of objectionally bad manners who shows off to
>excess. Some time the epiphet MUG precedes lair... But I'm sure that
>description wouldn't fit you,would it.;<) or is it the syntax checker not
>being turned on.
>
>
>Colin Clarke. nitpicking Tasmanian
>,
>
Hey, Colin :) ... I'm well aware it's Austral English slang, ask,
Tish, it you don't believe me. We had fun off-line over that one. ;>
Ronnie
=====
13 Ghosts
Well, Fayette, that is just wrong.
Ronnie gave this woman an answer in a perfectly
civilized manner and she reacted badly becuase
the news was not good news, I guess. But
she had nothing to complain about.
And, no, Fayette, she did not do her homework,
she did not answer well the questions put to her
about her subject. When Ronnie asked how she
knew it was an aquatint, she reeled of a
numbered list of checkpoints, "proving"
she knew what she was talking about.
When pressed, she then said that she
was relying on a third party's word.
Where I come from this is called lying.
Old Mari is, demosnstrably, an intellectually dishonest,
stupid and hostile ingrate.
But if she wants to hang out and help people
with their questions about California pottery
etc. that's fine by me. We have our fair share
of people whose word is worthless already and we
somehow get along.
This is clearly a case of a disappointed questioner
trying to kill the messenger, the one who brought
the bad news.
You will note, too, please, Fayette, that I have treated this
woman with kindness, but that does not mean that I have
turned a blind eye to the facts.
Respectfully yours,
13 Ghosts
Esengo
>Respectfully yours,
>13 Ghosts
Hi T.! I like Mari. She is a cut above the average "what is dis worf,u
morons" posts we receive. Her initial reaction to Ronnie was a bit
extreme...but my allowance for that was that she just didn't know the charming
Ronnie that we all have grown accustomed to. (Hey, I thought it was pretty
funny when he said he was 28....it's obvious he's an old coot).
Her question prompted Ronnie to share all kinds of cool stuff about
prints and the fact that she is not an expert...but is trying to learn by
asking questions... is commendable. IMNSHO
I like you alot, kiddo....but I think you're being a little tough on her.
I thank you for your respect. You weren't just saying that, were you?
:-D Fayette
13 Ghosts
> Ah, I think I goofed. Thought the Ghost-post had mixed you up with
> Mary (not Mari), since it was addressed to "Mary" and since she had
> just posted to the thread. Never m-i-i-n-d. And sorry, T.
>
> Marshall
I think I know where the trouble is. Up in the subject line,
before you open up the post, the poster's name
is listed as "Mary miller" (sic) but the posts are
signed "Mari".
And by the way Marshall, you are the only
one to ever notice that the first letter of
thirteen is indeed, T!
Thanks,
Ronnie McKinley
>T writes:
>>Respectfully yours,
>>13 Ghosts
>
T, wrote the truth.
>Hi T.! I like Mari. She is a cut above the average
She's a bluffer.
Fayette, I suggest you re-read the original post I made to this
thread. Re-read her 4 steps and then re-read my definitions as posted.
The woman hasn't a clue.
.... here's a few keywords for your consideration ....
Mari says ...
>"#2 look for tiny lines and criss-crossing to *****eliminate****
>copper, steel and other ****traditional**** engraving techniques.
>step #4 since my print was
>clearly an intaglio (?????????) process, Plain *******etching was eliminated***** by the
>appearance of 'tiny islands' with combination granular areas as well
>as engaving on the finer details, I narrowed it down to either an **aquatint
> or a mezzotint****
Total shite. :)
The rest of her steps I didn't even bother to quote or post, but read
them from #4 onwards, a load of tosh .... provenance???? she doesn't
even know the meaning of the word .. provenance .. it's a riot, one of
the funniest thing I have ever read in RA. HoHoHo
And I aIn't such an old coot, I just talk like an old coot.
See ya later, hon :)
Ronnie
=====
Esengo
>T, wrote the truth.
Well, golly. Truth is somewhat relative. I'm sure that T. believes
his/her statement is true. I believe as strongly that mine is. Now....we
could go get a lie detector.....but hey....I've got nothing to prove.
Ronnie again:
>She's a bluffer.
So what? Without a few bluffer's we'd all be sitting around staring at each
other and swatting flies off the ceiling. She gave us something to talk
about.
Ronnie again:
>she doesn't
>even know the meaning of the word .. provenance .. it's a riot, one of
>the funniest thing I have ever read in RA. HoHoHo
Oh come on.....you are exagerrating. The funniest thing you ever read in RA?
I'm thinking your 17 inches was right up with funniest. Get a grip. ;-)
Ronnie:
>And I aIn't such an old coot, I just talk like an old coot.
>
>
>See ya later, hon :)
I'm just throwing off the competition. You're a stud....don't I know it?
See ya! Fayette
Ronnie McKinley
>Ronnie writes:
>>T, wrote the truth.
Fayette, why did you delete the bones of my last message and ignore
it? :)
.... and I never claimed you ever had anything to prove. :>
Ronnie
=====
7 steps to heaven
==============
Bob Clark
Yours in obsessive collecting - Bob
Mike Wilcox
>
> In rec.antiques, Bob Clark wrote:
>
> >The more things change, the more they stay the same. <sigh>
> >
>
>
> Ronnie
> =====
> Navel Contemplation Antiques
> =======================
I think he means the bickering Ronnie, the way it comes and goes, like
the full moon ;~)
Ronnie McKinley
Ronnie McKinley
>I think he means the bickering Ronnie, the way it comes and goes, like
>the full moon ;~)
>--
Which, "bickering" is this then, Mike? It would somewhat help if, Bob,
would quote now and again, and make clear to whom he is responding,
and indeed appear in the right thread .. but I know, I'm nitpicking.
I see no "bickering" in this thread. If you read it, a number of folk
have expressed their thanks, one lady managed to have two artists
identified on her engravings. I believe other folk, may well have a
better understanding of aquatint vs mezzotint, and prints in general,
as well as possibly now knowing who hell Henry Alken was .. and a
bunch of other stuff. Ever, Mari, herself must have gleaned, some,
information of worth from the thread.
So, could, Bob, point us (well me at least - as his post points to
References: <376c1e1b...@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>) to the
bickering, please? Is he (Bob) stating, Fayette, and I were
"bickering?" or just that we are all "bickering" in general. Or even
yourself, Mike, could you point out the "bickering" on this one, 'cos
to be honest, I've have missed the "bickering" in this thread. :)
Anyways, thanks for the input, Bob, I am sure, Mari, is overwhelmed
with your insight on the subject. ;>>
Ronnie
=====
Streams of Consciousness Antiques
============================
Mary miller
"I'm sure Mari is overwhelmed with your insight..."
If you mean overwhelmed as in Whooosh....
not really. To call some of the vicious- inflammatory rhetoric I've
followed through a wad of loose threads 'bickering' is'nt so much
insightful as just plain polite.
Also said by Ronnie:
" Even Mari herself must have gleaned some information of worth.."
You're absolutely right. Had you displyed your lovely mezzotint from
the git go, and offered your own set of steps instead of belittlling my
awkward way of coming to a conclusion, this would probably have been a
very thread bare topic. But yes, I gleaned.
This is the third time my name has come up in your oh so witty
responses. I do believe you missed me!
Mari
Mike Wilcox
I remembered Bob's comment regarding a full moon or blue moon the last
time we had some heated discussions { scratch the "Bickering" ;~),, so
I went to dejanews and checked out Bobs past posts, I believe he is
referring to the "Not in front of the children" thread back in march of
this year. In that thread Bob replied to a message of mine.
Mike wrote:
...things go along quite well here for two or three months months
and then all hell breaks loose again."
Bob wrote:
Hmmm...a blue moon in Jan. and now another one this week? You don't
suppose...
"Hang on - it's going to be a bumpy night!"
Yours in obsessive collecting - Bob
At that time Jon had posted a rather long message to the same thread
regarding the nastiness that was occurring at the time,
> >> Forum: rec.antiques
> >> Thread: Not in front of the children
> >> Message 1 of 5
Subject: Not in front of the children
Unfortunately, most of the current squabbles are not childish or
childlike, just profane and disgusting.What gets me is that I reckon we
all know the 'big,naughty' words and all variations of bodily functions,
but only a few seem to need to publicise this in writing to an
international audience, especially in a forum supposed to be discussing
antiques. I'm no prude...anyone who has seen my folkclub stage acts will
tell you that...but it seems so out of place here .What really gets me,
however, is that my 14 year old son likes to stand behind me and look at
my newsgroup stuff....his antique knowledge is really coming on. I find
that I now quickly have to shut down because the level of filth in some
mails is 18 rated these days.I expect he wonders what I am looking at
!!! We have resisted moderation for years in r.a., but I've no interest
in comments about excrement or solo oral sex. I just find the whole
thing depressing. When we have a unique opportunity to communicate
worldwide on our favourite subjects, the whole thing degenerates into a
foul mouthed brawl. God help us all...
Jon
For the most part I ignore the long term animosities that go on around
here, most of them started long before my arrival and are none of my
business, I just thought I had a good idea what Bob was on about. I have
been following the thread on prints from the start and agree with your
original thought on Mari's prints. I thought your advice was spot on and
couldn't see how it could be taken in a negative light, unless the
recipient was in the habit of shooting the bearer of bad news ;~). I
must admit that at least Mari has attempted to do a hell of a lot more
digging than the usual " I have this green vase, what's it worth"
poster, and as T/13 has said in the past " most of us here entered ass
first"
--
Mike Wilcox
United Nations Antiques
Patricia V. Lehman
>
> In rec.antiques, Colin Clarke wrote:
>
> >>Ronnie
> >>=====
> >Hi Ronnie, in my neck of the woods a 'lair' is, as well as a place where
> >something nasty lurks, a person of objectionally bad manners who shows off to
> >excess.
>
> Tish, it you don't believe me. We had fun off-line over that one. ;>
>
> Ronnie
> =====
Off-line, hell. United Kingdom slang aside, I still like the "occupied by
predator or prey" defnition, myself.
Tish