Who drives value
Mike Wilcox
my place and came across an article about an interview with Picasso in
1952. This interview is one I'm unfamiliar with and I found Picasso's
view on the art market as interesting because of it's honesty, he said "
in art... those who are refined, rich,unoccupied, who are distillers of
quintessence, seek what is new ,strange,
original,extravagant,scandalous. I ,myself, since Cubism and before have
satisfied these masters and critics with all the changing oddities which
passed through my head, and the less they understood me, the more they
admired me. By amusing myself with all these absurdities,
puzzles,rebuses, arabesques, I became famous and that very quickly.And
fame for a painter means sales,gains,fortune,riches. And today,as you
know,I am celebrated.I am rich."
Picasso went on to say," But when I'm alone with myself,I have not the
courage to think of myself as an artist in the great and ancient sense
of the term...I am only a public entertainer who has understood his
times and exploited as best he could the imbecility, the vanity, the
cupidity of his contemporaries"
I have read other accounts of artists, who like Picasso , in their own
times, painted 'what was hot in the market' to pay the bills and had
little time to paint or sculpt what really moved them personally, it
makes one wonder if
"Media hype" is really the world's oldest profession. Any thoughts
anyone?
--
Mike Wilcox
Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
13 Ghosts
Ah, good topic.
Just some random thoughts-
The best example that comes to mind is a tired, old one
around here. Martha Stewart and the jadeite glass.
Took something that was nothing and made something
of it. There were, of course, collectors before the big
fad hit. I happen to know a couple of them.
You may have noticed too that there are a lot
of green cars on the road these days. I think I am
correct in saying that not so long ago, green cars
would not sell very well. It is all fashion.
One day, we are going to see a lot of green cars
sitting on used car lots going begging for buyers,
mark my words. When fashion deserts the color
green, people will move en masse away from it.
What's that got to do with art and antiques?
Just to say that fashion plays an equally important
role. Well, no. Not an equal role. But an important role.
What were those pieces of furniture someone was
talking to Ronnie about not long ago? Some guy
wanted to knock the back out of one, something
like that, to make an "entertainment center," Welsch
Dressers was it?
One might assume that there is a market these days
for big pieces of old furniture that people can
fuck up in order to make their ugly old TV and stereos
look a little more presentable upon. But as technology
progresses, these boxes of electronics will shrink
until they can fit in a match box. So that demand will
receed too.
This begs the question, what does stand up over time?
What art, what antiques will continue to be in demand
as time goes on? Who knows. Painters who were avidly
collected, (no I cannot think of an example) in
the late Victorian era are not so much sought after these
days. Tiffany was not much collected, I think, until the
1960's? Will it still be popular among collectors in a hundred
years? Well, the easy thing to say is that yes, it has
great artistic merit, that it will still be sought after. But
maybe not. Even artistic merit, the holy grail of antiques,
IMO, is finally to be found only in the eye of the beholder.
13 Ghosts
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Mike Wilcox
> Ah, good topic.
> Just some random thoughts-
> The best example that comes to mind is a tired, old one
> around here. Martha Stewart and the jadeite glass.
> Took something that was nothing and made something
> of it. There were, of course, collectors before the big
> fad hit. I happen to know a couple of them.
> You may have noticed too that there are a lot
> of green cars on the road these days. I think I am
> correct in saying that not so long ago, green cars
> would not sell very well. It is all fashion.
> One day, we are going to see a lot of green cars
> sitting on used car lots going begging for buyers,
> mark my words. When fashion deserts the color
> green, people will move en masse away from it.
>
determines what the season's ' Hot colour's' will be ( remember '
Harvest Gold').
> What's that got to do with art and antiques?
> Just to say that fashion plays an equally important
> role. Well, no. Not an equal role. But an important role.
> What were those pieces of furniture someone was
> talking to Ronnie about not long ago? Some guy
> wanted to knock the back out of one, something
> like that, to make an "entertainment center," Welsch
> Dressers was it?
> One might assume that there is a market these days
> for big pieces of old furniture that people can
> fuck up in order to make their ugly old TV and stereos
> look a little more presentable upon. But as technology
> progresses, these boxes of electronics will shrink
> until they can fit in a match box. So that demand will
> receed too.
Good point T/13 ,it's already very hard to sell large cabinet pieces
here and I have been converting some back to their original style
condition lately.
> This begs the question, what does stand up over time?
> What art, what antiques will continue to be in demand
> as time goes on? Who knows. Painters who were avidly
> collected, (no I cannot think of an example) in
> the late Victorian era are not so much sought after these
> days. Tiffany was not much collected, I think, until the
> 1960's? Will it still be popular among collectors in a hundred
> years? Well, the easy thing to say is that yes, it has
> great artistic merit, that it will still be sought after. But
> maybe not. Even artistic merit, the holy grail of antiques,
> IMO, is finally to be found only in the eye of the beholder.
I often wonder about the "eye of the beholder " thing T/13, I got a call
from a client regarding a water colour she had inherited from her
mother. She went on in great detail how beautiful it was and how her
mother had collected only 'Quality items' , and could I please place a
value on it. When I informed her that it was a modern Dime store print
,circa 1955, the look of love went out of her eyes, to her it could only
be beautiful if it was original and had monetary value.
13 Ghosts
> I often wonder about the "eye of the beholder " thing T/13, I got a call
> from a client regarding a water colour she had inherited from her
> mother. She went on in great detail how beautiful it was and how her
> mother had collected only 'Quality items' , and could I please place a
> value on it. When I informed her that it was a modern Dime store print
> ,circa 1955, the look of love went out of her eyes, to her it could only
> be beautiful if it was original and had monetary value.
> Mike Wilcox
> Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
===
If the local bar band plays a cover version
of a popular song, a good song, is it less
beautiful?
It might depend on whether you are listening
to the music or the lyrics. The arrangement,
the musicianship, the vocals of the bar band
will likely be not as good as
the work of the highly paid professionals,
but the lyrics will be the same.
And they will still hold the power they held at thier inception.
There are those who maintain that lyrics
do not matter in popular song. But me,
I would rather hear some of the local kids
slog through a good Sarah McLachlan song
than hear them play Ricky Martin's hit flawlessly.
Mike Wilcox
> If the local bar band plays a cover version
> of a popular song, a good song, is it less
> beautiful?
> It might depend on whether you are listening
> to the music or the lyrics.
>
> 13 Ghosts
>
> --
> Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
> Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
I agree, have you heard what Bob Dylan sounds like these days;~))
--
Mike Wilcox
13 Ghosts
> --
> Mike Wilcox
Brings to mind this-
Do you think that this particular Dixon
might have been a very early work of his?
If so, that could easily drive down the price.
I have had a few early works (not his, just
early works by artists of good repute) and they
just do not bring the big bucks. And I suppose
there are some who, in their dotage, lose their
chops. These pictures too will be worth less.
(Not that old Bob couldn't write a great song tomorrow.
If I were going to count anybody out, he would
be the last one.)
Further on who or what drives values,
another thing comes to mind.
Frequently, when the gold has been mined
out of a certain area, let's say California painters
so we can at least get somewhere close to
back where we started.
Well, when the big boys on the block,
(we are talking dead old painters here.
and for our European cousins, call it
loosely 1900-1920, something like that)
are pretty much sold up, the dealers
still have to make rent payments
and car payments so what they do
is start to sell the minor painters.
Edgar Payne's wife comes to mind, what was
her name, hang on a second.
OK, Elsie Palmer Payne.
I think it would be a good guess that
before the big push, when was that,
the early 1980's? that her work
was not bringing much at all.
This sort of thing happens all the time.
The # of customers out there with
$200,000 to blow on wall decoration
is not great. But there are quite a few
people of there who will pony up
two or three grand for a picture.
There are a lot of those minor
California painters.
They don't bring a lot of dough,
but you can make something on them.
This might be described as the trickle
down effect, or better, by saying
a rising tide lifts all boats.
This is not the only thing that
drives values of things, but it
is an easily observable factor
in the grand scheme of things.
Did the rising prices of American
Art Pottery like Rookwood and
even, groan, Roseville, bring up
the prices of lesser American
Art Pottery? Well, they went up,
didn't they? What made them go up?
Maybe there are other influences
of which I am unaware, but
the rising tide lifting all boats
theory might explain it.
Really crappy Weller selling
for $65 bucks. Not that I am
above selling it if I happen to be
able to buy some right. But is it
really worth $65? I guess so.
If they will pay it, it is worth it.
Fun topic.
Tracy Doyle
> Mike Wilcox
> Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
Hi, Mike...
I meant to jump in here a little sooner, but I've been busy...
Anyhow, I would approach his comment from my background as a show
producer working with a number of musical artists.
He was a pro. He knew who his audience was and what they wanted and he
gave it to them. All too often today, performers and (I think)
particularly artists think it's all about expressing themselves. It's
really not, you know. It's more about the audience and being able to
deliver up what they want, what they can relate to. I wouldn't call this
"media hype." It's part of the natural exchange between an artist and
the audience.
His self-effacing remark is common to performers and artists. I've known
some who feel that they're complete frauds - the work is too easy and
the money is too good. I've known others who are content to present to
audiences only their preferred expression - what they want to play the
way they want to play it, then they bellow like stuck pigs when the
audience ain't buying what they're selling.
Poor Picasso - he doesn't realize that he was so very lucky that his
exploratory, expressive self was what the public clamored for. But I
find it interesting that he would probably have considered himself a
much better artist had he restrained his wild thoughts and ... what?
Created masterpieces in the style of the Dutch masters, perhaps?
I don't know why we are all so quick to condemn the artist for giving
the audience what it wants. If he can't, he simply isn't commerical and
his life as an artist is not viable. Art, like life, is only "worth" as
much as it is valued by somebody else. You can't really be an artist alone.
Just my two cents. If you want to read my further ramblings on
professionalism, I recently made a post on the subject in
rec.music.ragtime.
RAGards,
Tracy
--
To respond via e-mail, excise the spamblocker from the address.
Smorgass Bored
Doug W.
~>*)))>< Big fish eat Little fish ><(((*<~
Tina Sutherland
Mike Wilcox wrote:
> < snip >
> Picasso went on to say," But when I'm alone with myself,I have not the
> courage to think of myself as an artist in the great and ancient sense
> of the term...I am only a public entertainer who has understood his
> times and exploited as best he could the imbecility, the vanity, the
> cupidity of his contemporaries"
>
<snip>
But isn't there a great gift in knowing just that , "Understood the
times"? I think many if not most artists wish they could understand the
times and tap into them in a way that people can see and learn what they
are trying to say. I'm sure there are artists out there who don't want/
care about the masses understanding them. But getting others to see your
vision is why artists display their works. I think they want us to "get it"
if only so we will buy the work thereby letting them eat.
I think Picasso had some sour grapes here and could have been glad of
his ability to reach others. We all can look down on those we sell things
to. Artists and shopowners alike. Would he have been happier to have made
great art that nobody ever saw? He could have chosen that path. There are
tons of obscure artists out there...if Picasso really felt like a sell-out
he could have crawled into a hole and stayed there. Or even done a body of
work that he didn't show/sell. Don't think he did that....so I say Sour
Grapes.
Tina
Mike Wilcox
> ===
> Brings to mind this-
> Do you think that this particular Dixon
> might have been a very early work of his?
> If so, that could easily drive down the price.
Yes it was an early work of his and a theme he used more than once, like
a lot of painters he often traded his work for whatever he could get and
repaint a scene that sold well. Another early work of his ,'Saddle
horses grazing' , painted in 1922 ,sold in 1993 for 80,000
> I have had a few early works (not his, just
> early works by artists of good repute) and they
> just do not bring the big bucks.
Quite true T/13 until these guys get near the top of the food chain :~)
> Further on who or what drives values,
> another thing comes to mind.
> Frequently, when the gold has been mined
> out of a certain area, let's say California painters
> so we can at least get somewhere close to
> back where we started.
> Well, when the big boys on the block,
> (we are talking dead old painters here.
> and for our European cousins, call it
> loosely 1900-1920, something like that)
> are pretty much sold up, the dealers
> still have to make rent payments
> and car payments so what they do
> is start to sell the minor painters.
Bingo! somebody has to start the ball rolling and give the impression of
a rising demand for the the rest of us herd animals to follow.
> Edgar Payne's wife comes to mind, what was
> her name, hang on a second.
> OK, Elsie Palmer Payne.
> I think it would be a good guess that
> before the big push, when was that,
> the early 1980's? that her work
> was not bringing much at all.
> This sort of thing happens all the time.
> The # of customers out there with
> $200,000 to blow on wall decoration
> is not great. But there are quite a few
> people of there who will pony up
> two or three grand for a picture.
Did you ever notice T that once an artists work hits about four grand
his/her exposure in the media begins to really increase?
> a rising tide lifts all boats.
> This is not the only thing that
> drives values of things, but it
> is an easily observable factor
> in the grand scheme of things.
snippage of good stuff
I really agree with you here, goods we would consider mass produced junk
are now the darlings of the collecting world, as soon as the market gets
skinny for one item the next one down the chain gets a hand up.
Not that I am
> above selling it if I happen to be
> able to buy some right. But is it
> really worth $65? I guess so.
> If they will pay it, it is worth it.
Hey, we all have to make a living, but I find it hard to get excited
about a lot of the items many in the group find appealing, but then
maybe beauty really is in the eye of the beholder;~)). Man, I love this
business!
--
Mike Wilcox
"Free Appraisal's are like free beer, they always want more"
Visit Antique's 101 Via our site at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/wilcox.hall.2ndcentury
x303x
of current popular art/artists approaching their work (at any level or form)
with the desire to express or transcend depth/meaning/emotion/experience
within their aesthetic pursuits. On the whole.... it simply isnt evident
in mainstream/contemporary art/culture.
and...if were of the Frank Loyd Wright school of thinking.... it wouldnt
matter what we gave the masses... as long as we as artists are assured of
our talents...so will they. Rather arrogant indeed...but I wish more would
adopt such philosophies....
A world without the Spicegirls ........Imagine that:)
Timothy
Tracy Doyle wrote in message <37A4F588...@NospaM.rag-time.com>...
>
>
>Mike Wilcox wrote:
>>
>> I was reading my morning paper in a little cafe around the corner from
>> my place and came across an article about an interview with Picasso in
>> 1952. This interview is one I'm unfamiliar with and I found Picasso's
>> view on the art market as interesting because of it's honesty, he said "
>> in art... those who are refined, rich,unoccupied, who are distillers of
>> quintessence, seek what is new ,strange,
>> original,extravagant,scandalous. I ,myself, since Cubism and before have
>> satisfied these masters and critics with all the changing oddities which
>> passed through my head, and the less they understood me, the more they
>> admired me. By amusing myself with all these absurdities,
>> puzzles,rebuses, arabesques, I became famous and that very quickly.And
>> fame for a painter means sales,gains,fortune,riches. And today,as you
>> know,I am celebrated.I am rich."
>> Picasso went on to say," But when I'm alone with myself,I have not the
>> courage to think of myself as an artist in the great and ancient sense
>> of the term...I am only a public entertainer who has understood his
>> times and exploited as best he could the imbecility, the vanity, the
>> cupidity of his contemporaries"
>>
Tracy Doyle
x303x wrote:
>
>
> A world without the Spicegirls ........Imagine that:)
> Timothy
>
Who they?
Mike Wilcox
>
> Hi, Mike...
Snippage of good stuff
>
> Poor Picasso - he doesn't realize that he was so very lucky that his
> exploratory, expressive self was what the public clamored for. But I
> find it interesting that he would probably have considered himself a
> much better artist had he restrained his wild thoughts and ... what?
> Created masterpieces in the style of the Dutch masters, perhaps?
Picasso could and did produce works in the classic style, but had to
produce what the promoters thought they could move. He became trapped
into a role like a character actor, the fame went with the character and
not the artist. Late in his life he was stalked by people trying to make
money even off his signature, in one case he had the last laugh. He
liked to walk the beach and doodle in the sand, this one day he was
being tailed by someone who had been following him about for weeks
looking for an opportunity to grab something Picasso had signed (
restaurant checks) or used. Picasso knew what was going on and started
to draw in the sand with great exaggerated strokes and signed it with
his name and wandered off, the stalker ran up, looked at what Picasso
had drawn and ran to get some plaster of paris to make a casting of it.
When he got back he noticed, as had Picasso, that the tide was coming in
and just as he got there the water swirled away the last of Picasso's
sand painting.
>
> I don't know why we are all so quick to condemn the artist for giving
> the audience what it wants. If he can't, he simply isn't commerical and
> his life as an artist is not viable. Art, like life, is only "worth" as
> much as it is valued by somebody else. You can't really be an artist alone.
I often wonder if the audience ever really gets what it wants or just
gets what the 'demographics' say we should want (endless clones of
'Friends'&ER).
At least with the internet we have the option really choosing what we
want to look at and seek out artistic or otherwise.
--
Mike Wilcox
Brian
Brian
stuffed elephant, or even greater amounts for a piece of toast nibbled
by John Lennon.
"CASH" value has nothing to do with any intrinsic value that an item may
have, it depends solely on what you can get one person to pay, and even
then it will depend on what TWO or more people are willing to pay, so
there must have been at least two people willing to buy John Lennon's
breakfast leftovers. My Great grandmother's solid gold Waltham watch
with its 30" gold chain and huge garnet slide is probably one of a kind,
thanks to the engraving, but it has a low value that could be easily
exceeded by a handful of baseball cards or a single piece of good
ceramic by a top maker. How can I say that? I researched Ebay, and
noted the final bid price of 20 or so very similar watches.
If nobody wants it, it doesn't matter how wonderful that Rembrandt or
Vangogh is, it will never sell for what it is worth.
Prior price, or even what you paid for it yourself is meaningless. The
stock market is a good example, especially with the over valued Internet
stocks, of which Ebay itself is a prime example.
Mike Wilcox
>
> Who drives value? the people who will pay $3,000 for a little blue
> stuffed elephant, or even greater amounts for a piece of toast nibbled
> by John Lennon.
>
> "CASH" value has nothing to do with any intrinsic value that an item may
> have, it depends solely on what you can get one person to pay, and even
> then it will depend on what TWO or more people are willing to pay, so
> there must have been at least two people willing to buy John Lennon's
> breakfast leftovers. My Great grandmother's solid gold Waltham watch
> with its 30" gold chain and huge garnet slide is probably one of a kind,
> thanks to the engraving, but it has a low value that could be easily
> exceeded by a handful of baseball cards or a single piece of good
> ceramic by a top maker. How can I say that? I researched Ebay, and
> noted the final bid price of 20 or so very similar watches.
>
> If nobody wants it, it doesn't matter how wonderful that Rembrandt or
> Vangogh is, it will never sell for what it is worth.
>
> Prior price, or even what you paid for it yourself is meaningless. The
> stock market is a good example, especially with the over valued Internet
> stocks, of which Ebay itself is a prime example.
>
Hi Brian, my main point is ,without the hype you wouldn't be able to
find two people who would want his toast, unless they were very hungry .
The reason his toast, or anything else a celebrity like him owned is of
value, is the public has been led to believe there is a rising market
for his toast and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
People like to be associated with the famous, we live in an age where
even owning a bit of their cast offs is seen as a status symbol (
remember the Jackie O sale, 44 grand for a tape measure). The same tape
measure without the provenance and hype probably retails for $ 14.95 and
as long as it remains functional it's going to be worth at least $ 3.50
to somebody. My interest is not in the two suckers bidding on the toast,
they are just following the trend, I'm interested in the P.T. Barnums
who set the whole thing in motion.
Ronnie McKinley
Mike, it seems a rather obvious answer to me. Who, arranged the sale
of Sir Horace Walpole's art collection to Catherine II the Great of
Russia (1778), auctioned the contents of Sir Joshua Reynold's studio
(1794), sold Madame du Barry's jewels (1795), managed the 40-day sale
of the 2nd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos' Stowe House collection
(1848), handled the 17-day Hamilton Palace sale of pictures (1882),
sold pictures from Sir George Drummond's collection (1919), and
handled the sale of the Ford Collection of Impressionist paintings
(1980). In one year, 1990, set two records -- the sale of Vincent van
Gogh's " Portrait of Dr. Gachet" for $82.5 million, then the most
expensive painting ever sold at auction, and the sale of the Badminton
Cabinet for $15.2 million, then the most expensive piece of furniture
ever sold at auction? ..... Hype!! nothing new and the above is only
one outfit dealing in HYPE! ... it all feeds down the pipe until it
reaches the rest of the plebeians.
Ronnie
=====
Michele Mauro
that I truly wanted, was one of the original Maltese Falcons from the
Bogey movie of the same name... if I recall correctly, the Black Bird
went for around $65K, and if I'd had the money, I would have been
bidding... just a sucker for old Bogart movies I guess... <grin>
Marilyn Monroe's personal effects are going up for auction here in the
US soon - they've been warehoused for 30-odd years, everything from used
cosmetics to the gown she wore for JFK's birthday party... if Jackie-O
set new records, you can bet MM will surpass them!
My Dad took pics of MM when she was in Korea, and still has a few photos
on his wall. Sadly, the negatives were stolen about 20 years ago, but
they're worth about $35K each nowadays... <sigh>
Have fun, Michele
--
Change NOSPAM to 'chaos' to reply via email.
Ronnie McKinley <mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:37a62a55...@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk...
Brian
scams that I hear about. When someone gets burned buying a "Genuine"
this that or the other thing, I look on it as a learning experience for
them. We have a Hobby Lobby store here that sells God awful stained
glass lamps by the hundreds, at prices so awful that it makes me sick.
People who buy these generally disparage my work because I try to charge
enough that I am not working only as a gift to my customer. Is it all
that unreasonable to ask for the price of materials plus 3 or 4 dollars
an hour? My comments about intrinsic value reflect how I feel about
everything in life. I would rather watch a sunset than a movie.
Buy selling enough of the Lennon toast and the Onassis tape measures,
money will be funneled back into the economy and removed from the hands
of unfit custodians. If several million Onassis tapes were introduced
onto the market, we would slowly weed out, by natural selection those
people who cannot see beyond the fact that it was just a black and
decker. It reminds me of a lady who owned a "genuine" Sradivarious, one
that was part of a numbered series named after his first wife,
"facieabat anno." (latin for "Made in 18--") If I weren'd such a damned
grump, I guess that this wouldn't bother me. I still cannot help but
choke when artists here starve, and the chinese dictators grow fat on
the labors of their serfs.
Ronnie McKinley
>Buy selling enough of the Lennon toast and the Onassis tape measures,
>money will be funneled back into the economy and removed from the hands
>of unfit custodians.
Huh?
Whose economy would that be?
Ronnie
=====
Tina Sutherland
Ronnie McKinley wrote:
Puts me in mind of the "relics" and revered bits of saints. Amazing what
hype can do to value. Nothin' new under the sun...
Tina
A2Gumbo
>He was a pro. He knew who his audience was and what they wanted and he
>gave it to them.
Moving this back to antiques, this is exactly what many of us do with what we
sell. Most of us would love to deal in beautiful high end pieces of furniture,
glass, pottery and porcelain. However, you have to assess the market. What
are people clamoring for? All too often it is the collectible stuff. You have
to decide if you want to be a dealer which means buying and selling what people
are looking for, or a museum curator and continue buying what is fine but
doesn't sell. All too often pride or profit seems to be the choice. As for
me, I'll take pride in what I buy to keep in my own home and profit in what I
buy for resell.
Ashley
American by birth.
Southern by the Grace of God.
Mary
yesterday when I came upon this entry, slightly appropriate.
"Tulip Mania. A reckless mania for the purchase of tulip-bulbs
that arose in Holland in the 17th century and was at its
greatest height about 1633-1637 [antique tie-in]. A bulb
of the species called Viceroy sold for 250 pounds; Semper
Augustus, more than double that sum. The mania spread all over
Europe, and became a mere stock-jobbing speculation."
Sound familiar?
Mary
Mike Wilcox
Hi Mary, the Tulip mania really describes the current situation,
especially for ready made collectibles and internet stocks. It should be
interesting to see just how far it goes this time, $ 4,000 Legume
Infants anyone?
13 Ghosts
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but Beanie Babies
are the best example of a current manifestation of
this phenomenon.
Brian
stocks, and the silly way some investors have of grabbing onto "hot"
"sexy" and "new" stocks. People find a particular stock, buy into it
without any sort of true analysis, hoping not to make money on
dividends, but only to make a bundle selling it to the next "investor"
that comes along. Snapple comes to mind, and many other companies that
were driven to such high p/e ratios that a person holding the stock
could not expect to make any profits for YEARS if he just held the
stock. Eventually, just like with the Tulips, People get bored, the
bubble bursts, and a lot of people lose money as the market winds down
to the supportable levels. When all the voodoo and hype disappear,
intrinsic value for most things is what you can get at a salvage yard.
Mary Bellack
I read the Tulip Mania entry. What surprised me was that this
form of human idiocy goes back that far. Does anyone have
an older example?
Skewing sideways, we had a client company about 15 years
ago that asked us to do some work -- British company, one
we'd never heard of, and in the course of talking with them
we asked the usual question "How long have you been in
business?" The answer still makes me laugh. "Well," he
replied, supplying an exact date, "we really got our start in
the opium trade." Now that, at least, is a
mania I can understand.
Mary
Brian
They were buying salvation of their souls when they sold the farm to buy
a splinter of the original cross. Other than the fact that we do it for
fun rather than salvation when we spend enough to buy a car on a beany
collection, these two seem to have a pretty good similarity
psychologically.
Ronnie McKinley
>Of course the bb's are, and I immediately thought of them when
>I read the Tulip Mania entry.
Ah, I have been trying to keep out of this thread, but god good it's
now becoming surreal.
To compare the Dutch Tulpenwoede and your latest American craze for
bb's is just plain ridiculous. The bb's craze has no other influence
on any branch of the arts, has no outside influence to ANYOTHER
country in the world and most certainly will not leave a rich legacy
for future generations. The bb's is but a mere contrived piece of
nonsense for a gullible people, a craze much like any other silly
American craze, just like bubble-gum, skate-boarding and wearing
baseball caps back to front it will disappear, be forgotten without a
trace of any lasting effect or its place in history.
I would humbly suggest that a little further reading and some serious
research into the Dutch Tulpenwoede period wouldn't go a miss.
And to suggest that the Tulpenwoede all ended in the "salvage yard" is
distortion of the facts, try telling the Dutch, that the tulip
industry of today has no major input on the Dutch economy.
Get real people, the bb's is exclusively American, else where, it's
regarded as a bloody big joke and has NO place, whatsoever, in the
world of antiques or of any historical significance.
Ronnie
=====
Laurie Brown
Well said Ronnie, well said. The impact of Tulpenwoede was across the
known world, and affected many economies, people, and societies in
general. Even a cursory reading of it would show that to compare it with
the BB shite is plain ridiculous.
Cheers, Laurie.
Tina Sutherland
Brian wrote:
> I think that he holy relics of the crusade are a whole different story.
> They were buying salvation of their souls when they sold the farm to buy
> a splinter of the original cross. Other than the fact that we do it for
> fun rather than salvation when we spend enough to buy a car on a beany
> collection, these two seem to have a pretty good similarity
> psychologically.
>
Well, as an example of hype = value they could be hard to beat. Folks
have killed for bits of wood or whatever.
As for selling your soul, that's a different thread all together. ;-)
Tina the godless
13 Ghosts
> Ronnie
> =====
Well, OK. I was wrong then. ;)
Funny thing about history.
I made a mistake not long ago
that turned out all right in the end,
but it was all because I didn't even
know there WAS a King George IV
of England.
But look on the bright side.
They say 60% of Americans
can't find Germany on the map.
;)
Smorgass Bored
They say 60% of Americans
can't find Germany on the map.
(*<~ I thought that it was just east of West Germany.........
in the top 40%,
Ronnie McKinley
Brain, I will respond to you via the ng as I have no wish to discuss
this ridiculous tripe any longer and certainly not by long drawn out
e-mail.
Tulips were introduced into Europe from Turkey shortly after 1550, and
marked the beginning of the tulip horticultural industry in Europe,
the demand for differently coloured varieties of tulips soon exceeded
the supply, and prices for individual bulbs of rare types began to
rise to unwarranted heights in northern Europe. By about 1610 a single
bulb of a new variety was acceptable as dowry for a bride, and a
flourishing brewery in France was exchanged for one bulb of the
variety Tulipe Brasserie.
The craze reached its height in Holland during 1633-37. Before 1633
Holland's tulip trade had been restricted to professional growers and
experts, but the steadily rising prices tempted many ordinary
middle-class and poor families to speculate in the tulip market. The
crash came early in 1637, when doubts arose as to whether prices would
continue to increase. Almost overnight the price ***structure*** for
tulips collapsed, sweeping away fortunes and leaving behind
financial ruin for many ordinary Dutch families.
As I have already said, this did NOT turn the tulip into the next
dodo, the tulip industry today is STILL a major factor that drives the
Dutch economy and plays its place amongst the other European grower's
markets.
We are talking nearly a bloody 100 YEARS of European history, and the
MASSIVE influence that period had in European affairs, and on other
European economies, to compare this with the American craze for bb's
is total and utter shite, please do not confuse our European history
with some contrived American bull which is irrelevant, meaningless and
of NO historical significance.
Now tell me the ANTIQUE connection of the bb or how the collapse of
the bb's collecting market would have any repercussions (short term or
long term) on the world's economy?
Ronnie
=====
"this week's silly thread"
==================
Mike Wilcox
> Forgive me for stating the obvious, but Beanie Babies
> are the best example of a current manifestation of
> this phenomenon.
Please do not use the "B" words, that's why I said " Legume
Infants";~)), let's keep this a B free site.
--
Mike Wilcox
Mike Wilcox
> known world, and affected many economies, people, and societies in
> general. Even a cursory reading of it would show that to compare it with
> the BB shite is plain ridiculous.
>
> Cheers, Laurie.
In defence of our American cousins, I think the point to comparing the
tulip mania to this current madness for stuffed animals, is as an
example of people's unreasonable expectations of profit, and not so much
the damage caused by the crash. It's like one giant of investment said
when asked why he sold his stocks before the crash in 1929, "When
shoeshine boys are talking about buying stocks, it's time to get out of
the market". Once everyone is involved in the market, be it
tulips,disgusting stuffed animals or stocks and there are no more
suckers to sell to it's game over.
--
Mike Wilcox
Pat Dorn
> Mike Wilcox wrote:
>
> > < snip >
> > Picasso went on to say," But when I'm alone with myself,I have not the
> > courage to think of myself as an artist in the great and ancient sense
> > of the term...I am only a public entertainer who has understood his
> > times and exploited as best he could the imbecility, the vanity, the
> > cupidity of his contemporaries"
> >
>
> <snip>
> But isn't there a great gift in knowing just that , "Understood the
> times"? I think many if not most artists wish they could understand the
> times and tap into them in a way that people can see and learn what they
> are trying to say. I'm sure there are artists out there who don't want/
> care about the masses understanding them. But getting others to see your
> vision is why artists display their works. I think they want us to "get it"
> if only so we will buy the work thereby letting them eat.
> I think Picasso had some sour grapes here and could have been glad of
> his ability to reach others. We all can look down on those we sell things
> to. Artists and shopowners alike. Would he have been happier to have made
> great art that nobody ever saw? He could have chosen that path. There are
> tons of obscure artists out there...if Picasso really felt like a sell-out
> he could have crawled into a hole and stayed there. Or even done a body of
> work that he didn't show/sell. Don't think he did that....so I say Sour
> Grapes.
> Tina
I think this all bounces back to "Media" before an audience, or any individual
knows what they like or what they feel they should like they have to be
influenced. A "Market" must be created. Influence comes in many forms. The
right person, must own it, or recommend it. TV, Magazines, Newspapers, Books.
It must be determined that if you have it you will be highly thought of. It
must receive repeated attention After that the law of supply and demand comes
in to play. In the beginning it will be reasonably price, as the item (new or
old) becomes difficult to find the value will increase. If the item is not
available for a long period and is no longer discussed people will lose
interest and no matter how wonderful, or how well designed; if it cannot be
acquired it will have little value to the mass and will continue under valued
until someone figures out how to market it again. I try not to purchase items
just because they are "in." I try to buy what I love.....but why do I love the
things I love? I've been influenced by a media, by my surroundings, my
environment, etc. Oh, we we only had a crystal ball and I could know now what
I was going to love next year.
Pat
Brian
anything of value. The big collapse occurred because large numbers of
people used Tulips as a speculative investment. In the end, when these
speculators brought about the collapse, their pedigreed bulbs were next
to worthless, basically salvage value. One of the problems that they
failed to address was that the supply of bulbs grew in time, and values
could not help but fall.
Yes, there are similarities in the beany baby craze. Now, as then, we
have people "investing" in items that are not a traditional investment
grade material. Of course, I know that a lot of people buy beanies
because they are Cute and cuddly, but cute and cuddly have never
demanded that sort of money before, and may never again. Soon, as then,
the beany baby market will become a forgotten thing.
We won't have a beautiful legacy afterwards, but that isn'w what I was
talking about anyway. They are regarded as a bloody big joke here,
also. A small segment of society is speculating in beanies, and
collecting them seriously with intent to trade or sell.
Others just love silly little critters, and beanies are just another
facet of their cute and cuddly collection.
Brian
and gold chains. I really doubt that they felt as strongly about those
jackets, though. It just bought them prestige, not eternal life.
Brian
form of speculation. Our stock markets and commodity markets here have
done the same thing for even longer. The fact that it was speculatory
investment is evidenced by the utter collapse that destroyed fortunes.
In the end, you have a thriving industry, without speculators, that
sells it's product for a few dollars apiece.
I have never said that there were absolute parallels with the contrived
beanie industry, I said that the speculation was similar. A
manufactured item will never be anything like a grown commodity, any
more than theprice of oil can properly be indexed to the price of
wheat.
Gold will always be gold, there will always be need for it, and it will
always have value. Gold wedding rings from the 1300's will always be
worth at least $300 an ounce. What is the bottom line for a beanie
babie when no one wants it? You will have to pay to have it put in a
landfill.
If Tulips had been found to hold secret toxic qualities, what would you
have had? speculation would have collapsed when no one wanted them, and
you still would have had nothing more than a plant.
My entire point has been about SPECULATION, not whether beanies or
tulips had any historical significance or intrinsic value. Speculation
is a wild card that makes and destroys markets. Speculation has been
around ever since Oog of the odnog tribe of cave people cunningly
carried only water as his tribe walked into the desert, and collected
huge promises of riches for every mouthful he doled out.
I know about the tulip trade, so quit trying to tell me that it was
important. I know beanies are a crock, so stop telling me that they are
tripe. I know that americans are weird, so stop talking about us
wearing our hats backwards. I recall that your country introduced the
super glue spike haircut, so you should see that weirdness is global.
This is all a series of posts regarding what drives prices, and I stated
opinions based on sound economics. AOL, pork bellies, and tulips all
have something in common, and so do baseball cards and beanie babies.
They all have a base value that can be achieved in a market that is
unaware of the "hype" value set upon it, and that value is going to be
less than it would be if you had special reasons for wanting it.
Just drop it. You seem to be determined to read what you want to into
my posts. You think that I am just another stupid american who knows no
history and has no class. Further, you probably believe that I care
what you think.
Truth is all that matters to me, and truth is one of the things that
antiques are all about. When you read a book from the 1700's, you read
the ACTUAL facts, as seen from that time. You can feel the chairs, you
can eat with the silver, and truly know what that time offered, as far
as you are able.
truth also matters when buying and selling. Right now Millions of
people are buying beanies because others tell them that they are worth a
lot, and if you find one for $10, it is a bargain that should not be
passed up. Only time separates it from being recycled into carpet pad,
bu t for now it is a treasure to someone.
Brian
map. I can even find Shiloh, Gettysburgh, and Normandy. I could
probably find the tower of London, if I really worked at it, but I would
probably die trying to get there unless I took a bus. I never tried
driving left handed.
In any case, if I ever visited the UK, it would only be to try the
beer. Which one of you would take me to your favorite pub?
13 Ghosts wrote:
>
> On Thu, 05 Aug 1999 09:27:51 GMT mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk (Ronnie
> Well, OK. I was wrong then. ;)
>
> Funny thing about history.
> I made a mistake not long ago
> that turned out all right in the end,
> but it was all because I didn't even
> know there WAS a King George IV
> of England.
>
> But look on the bright side.
> They say 60% of Americans
> can't find Germany on the map.
>
Brian
with no real purpose except to take money from us.
Used to be industry determined needs, and created things to fill the
needs. Now, China makes a few gazillion pieces of junk, offers it for
sale, Walmart buys half of it, and enough turkeys find it absolutely
essential to life that the cycle is bound to be repeated.
Go into a gift shop and you will realize that half of the stuff there is
just junk. Where is Louis Tiffany? Do we really deserve nothing
better?
Brian
B.B.s just give me cramps.
Brian
of the day traders who learned about stocks from watching commercials
get out of the game for a while. My money is now in US bonds and short
term paper. I plan on not touching the funds again for nearly a year,
barring changes. No, I haven't got any of it in Beanie Babies, or tulip
bulbs. Mine would die.
Mike Wilcox wrote:
>
> Laurie Brown wrote:
> >
Laurie Brown
>
> That is the beauty of a history education. I can find Germany on the
> map. I can even find Shiloh, Gettysburgh, and Normandy. I could
> probably find the tower of London, if I really worked at it, but I would
> probably die trying to get there unless I took a bus. I never tried
> driving left handed.
>
> In any case, if I ever visited the UK, it would only be to try the
> beer. Which one of you would take me to your favorite pub?
I would.
Cheers, Laurie.
Charleen Bunjiovianna
>What really scares me is the awful trend I have seen of creating "crap"
>with no real purpose except to take money from us.
>
>Used to be industry determined needs, and created things to fill the
>needs. Now, China makes a few gazillion pieces of junk, offers it for
>sale, Walmart buys half of it, and enough turkeys find it absolutely
>essential to life that the cycle is bound to be repeated.
>
>Go into a gift shop and you will realize that half of the stuff there is
>just junk. Where is Louis Tiffany? Do we really deserve nothing
>better?
The people who deserve nothing better are those who refuse to pay for quality.
Fine workmanship never comes cheap and yet it is as readily available as ever
today, but price-driven shoppers care nothing for objects made well, only
those that are inexpensive. John Ruskin had something to say on the subject.
Charleen
Brian
eloquent, but a darned sight more polite than anything that I have said
about the matter. I wish that I could read it.
David Rivello
enables you to buy the higher quality you want for yourself. Did you
see the movie "The Red Violin"? A violin player goes in to the shop and
plays the red violin but he isn't smart enough to realize it was one of
the best violins ever made. He doesn't think it plays well. Only when he
finds out later that it is THE REAL THING does he want it for himself. And
only because it was "worth something", not for what it is in itself.
Those who deserve to have a thing are those who are able to appreciate
that thing, and no one else.
OK, time to get off the soapbox,
Carolyn R
On 4 Aug 1999, A2Gumbo wrote:
> As for me, I'll take pride in what I buy to keep in my own home and profit
>in what I buy for resell.
>
> Ashley
Mike Wilcox
>
> That's fair. You give people what they want and what you sell to them
> enables you to buy the higher quality you want for yourself. Did you
> see the movie "The Red Violin"? A violin player goes in to the shop and
> plays the red violin but he isn't smart enough to realize it was one of
> the best violins ever made. He doesn't think it plays well. Only when he
> finds out later that it is THE REAL THING does he want it for himself. And
> only because it was "worth something", not for what it is in itself.
> Those who deserve to have a thing are those who are able to appreciate
> that thing, and no one else.
> OK, time to get off the soapbox,
> Carolyn R
That was a good antiquey film Carolyn, I rather enjoyed it. It's too bad
that films without car crashes and major shoot outs never make to the
smaller centres, I had to rent the video and watch it on the small
screen.
Can anyone recommend any other antique related films that are available
on video?
--
Mike Wilcox
"Free Appraisal's are like free beer, they always want more"
Visit Antique's 101 Via our site at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/wilcox.hall.2ndcentury
Brian
considerations aside for entertainment value, it was a joy to be able to
see the art and antiques that they showed. I know that a lot of it was
repro and props, but us hill folk from southwest Missouri don't have the
great opportunities presented by larger metropolitan areas, where money
is spent on the arts.
Louise Salkeld
Purinton Pottery "for cheap". Today, I saw it on a site for $14.95. Not
just one piece, but cookie jars and the very rare pieces, all at $14.95
each. Then you go to another site and the price is considerably
higher...Regards
Louise