Folk Art
NtyFaye
My definition: The character of a given people group or country reflected in a
skilled and imaginative artistic form.
My frustration: "Folk Art" has become a catch-all for all sorts of handmade
junk that is neither artistic, imaginative nor character driven. Now I'm not
against wacky fun stuff....the world needs more fun. But I *am* against false
definitions.
Some questions for consideration.
1. What part does whimsy play in folk art? Is it a required characteristic?
I have a book of American hooked rugs. Hooked rugs are generally thought
to be folk art. They were handmade and often reflect the character of their
maker. There is one rug in particular that strikes my fancy. It says,
"Here hooked is a picture of my husbands kin, I'll be glad when I die and don't
see them again". Surrounding the words are pictures of her husbands
relatives!
Like most delightful examples of true folk art I'm sure it is in either a
private collection or a museum somewhere.
2. What part does uniqueness play? Something that is produced over and
over, even if handmade by one person.....can that still qualify as folk art?
I have a 70's auction catalog which pictures a wooden chicken, a common
symbol in traditional folk art. The auction sitter took notes which show that
the chicken hammered down just over $3000. Now my auction catalog owner also
had a copy of a letter s/he had written to the auction house stating that s/he
owned a wooden chicken pretty much identical to the one sold, signature and
all. S/he wanted to know if the auction house would be willing to contact the
underbidder and offer to sell the item for the price they had dropped out at.
I see all sorts of problems with all that but my concern here is that the item
in question lost much of it's "value" in my mind when a small audience yielded
another chicken of nearly same character.
American quilts are often thought to fall into the catagory of folk art.
But obviously not all quilts are skillfully executed and many don't show any
sort of imaginative creativity. A log cabin quilt, in my opinion, is not
folk art because it is not unique.
3. Are there current day "folk artists"?
As antique dealers and buyers we generally think of folk art as having
some age. But I suppose it's possible for there to be current day folk
artists (do you know any?) By my definition they would have to reflect a
specific people group or country. Their artwork, likewise, would have to
somehow relfect that culture.
Cutsie country cutout crafts fail both requirements.
4. Can handmade furniture qualify as folk art?
5. Tramp art? Is it folk art? Do other countries have tramp art? Is some
tramp art folk art and some not?
Alrighty,
There's a start. Any thoughts?
Fayette
Smorgass Bored
pyramids out of empty Bacardi Breezer bottles.
does THAT count,
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Janice Hudnall
"NtyFaye" <nty...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030205102432...@mb-fk.aol.com...
> Folk Art
>
> My definition: The character of a given people group or country reflected
in a
> skilled and imaginative artistic form.
Fayette,
Here is my personal definition of 'folk art':
"The extraordinary creative statement of an untrained individual expressed
in ordinary media." ( Bracing myself for the controversy). In my opinion,
Folk art is more about the impulses of the individual rather than a group or
country. I could really stir things up by asserting that if its made to be
sold it doesn't qualify.
Janice
DBallas464
hungry for, Fayette wrote
>Folk Art
>
>My definition: The character of a given people group or country reflected in
>a
>skilled and imaginative artistic form.
>Are there current day "folk artists"?
> As antique dealers and buyers we generally think of folk art as having
>some age. But I suppose it's possible for there to be current day folk
>artists (do you know any?)
I think what separates folk art from other forms of art or craft is that
whatever that object is, it was made to please the person who created it, and
comes wtih its own set of character flaws and imperfections which sets it apart
and makes it unique. I believe that there are current day folk artists who
just have not been realized as such.
A friend of mine has old wooden toys which were hand made by a family member.
There are a set of trucks that are very well made, with incredible attention to
detail. I expected to see a working engine when I lifted the hood! Each toy
was made with the knowledge that a child would pay with it - and possibly ruin
it - but that didn't stop the man from putting in every detail that he saw fit
- because it pleased him. And just as interesting as the items that are
included, are the details that are left out. Anyone can attempt a perfect
replica of an item.
I agree that just because an item is handmade, it does not qualify as folk art
- and I fully believe that a person can take a mass produced object and create
folk art by adding things that reflect their culture, skill and imagination.
Where else but in California would one share the freeway with a Mercedes
covered in denim!
http://www.artcarfest.com/
Folk art stops being folk art when an object is produced only to be sold,
because it is being made to the specifications of what a buyer would want,
instead of the whim of the creator.
Lauren
jJim Horne
NtyFaye wrote in message <20030205102432...@mb-fk.aol.com>...
>Folk Art
>
>My definition: .........
I think you said it Fayette, whatever
your definition is, thats what it is. Folk Art, Pop Art, Whatever Art, its
just a name some smart ass dealer type - fashion maker - know f*** all -
chancer gives something to bang the price up.
Personally I class " folk art "
as items made by ordinary people to serve the same purpose as store bought
items they couldnt afford to buy.
Who said poor folks aint got
no eye for beauty ; ) ??
Jim
mc...@cecometnothere.net
>Folk Art
>
>My definition: The character of a given people group or country reflected in a
>skilled and imaginative artistic form.
>
Hi Fayette,
I agree with your frustration in defining folk art. I think that a
large part of the problem is that there are so very many people who
are unable to judge the artistic merit or inherent quality of a piece.
We have become used to shoddily-made pieces with massed-produced
decals for decoration.
I would say that an individual's character reflected in a piece is
more an indicator of Folk Art than an associated country or group.
Being part of the group just makes recognition and identification
easier. And Folk Art must be decorative.
Getting people (meaning the general public -- those who might wander
into an antique shop) to recognize quality workmanship is hard enough,
but since folk art either has, or is, superfluous decoration (I would
argue that Shaker items, being of good quality and form, but otherwise
undecorated are *not* folk art) getting them to recognize good
decoration is so much more difficult.
Whimsey -- an individual touch. The more I think about it the more I
believe that that individual touch is necessary for the definition of
Folk Art.
Uniqueness is a double-edged sword. If it is the only one around,
what do you compare it to? How do you <cringe> value it without
actually selling it? This brings us back to the problem of being able
to judge a piece on it's merits. If you've got a signed wooden
chicken, you don't need to judge it, because you know what its brother
sold for. I'm not sure I'd call most American quilts Folk Art.
Perhaps one that tells a story, such as the elusive Baltimore Album
quilts. But not most pieced quilts. ( And the Log Cabin, with its
many variations, is one of my favorites.) But to answer your
question, a piece need not be unique to be Folk Art. If great-grandpa
made two whirly-gigs, that does not disqualify them from the folk art
category.
>3. Are there current day "folk artists"?
Certainly.
>4. Can handmade furniture qualify as folk art?
Perhaps.
>5. Tramp art? Is it folk art? Do other countries have tramp art? Is some
>tramp art folk art and some not?
I think that here is where whimsey comes in to the definition. If you
have an ordinary 3-layer tramp art picture frame with no other unusual
characteristics, then it's not really folk art. Not arty enough. But
something more fanciful would qualify. The Flemish Art Co. made many
many boxes and plaques with designs to wood-burn. Most of those are
not Folk Art. A few, well-done, and embellished, are. Many pieces of
Pyrography not from kits are Folk Art.
>Alrighty,
>There's a start. Any thoughts?
>Fayette
Thanks for asking.
mcat
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Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
> In rec.antiques dball...@aol.com (DBallas464) wrote:
>
> >Folk art stops being folk art when an object is produced only to be sold,
> >because it is being made to the specifications of what a buyer would want,
> >instead of the whim of the creator.
>
> Is 'Shaker' a folk art, a craft, or a middle-class elite art?
>
> Is an 18thC pole-lathe turned sugan weaver's chair made by the local
> carpenter and traded, bartered or sold to a local cottage weaver, a
> piece of folk art or a 18thC equivalent to Chairs R Us?
>
> --
> Ronnie
Hi Ronnie
Depends on what type of items you look at, from a North American view hand made
items like quilts are generally considered a type of Folk art. Furniture as
you describe it by a local joiner ( or by Shakers) would be considered "Chairs
R Us", because they are a regular production item of a tradesman. For the chair
to be considered Folk Art it would have to be a handcrafted unique or very
limited production pieces made from scavenged material, by a semi or unskilled
person for their own or family use. A Folk art example of furniture would be a
rocking chair made out of bits of other old chairs and a spinning wheel, or
whittled out of a stump.
Mike Wilcox
--
Antique & Collectible Appraisals Online
Antique News,Appraisal Tutorials and More
http://www3.sympatico.ca/appraisers
Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
> snipped
>
> ...... err, what about singing without accompaniment in your native
> language ... is that 'folk art?'
>
> --
> Ronnie
Nah....Isn't that called intoxication? ;~))))))
Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
> In rec.antiques Wilcox & Hall Appraisers wrote:
>
> >Depends on what type of items you look at, from a North American view hand made
> >items like quilts are generally considered a type of Folk art.
>
> Well quit making In Ireland and Scotland would most certainly be
> regarded as 'folk art.' Lets not forget who it was brought the "art"
> of quilt making to North America in the first place :-)
>
> >Furniture as
> >you describe it by a local joiner ( or by Shakers) would be considered "Chairs
> >R Us", because they are a regular production item of a tradesman.
>
> I didn't describe "a regular production item of a tradesman." An 18thC
> Sugan weaver's chair could hardly be described as "a regular
> production item." Couldn't actually go into your local 18thC branch of
> MFI and pick up your weaver's chair. Don't think Gillows made them
> either :) One either made it themselves or had the local carpenter
> (handyman) make one on his pole-lathe. Then bartered, traded or dicker
> for it. An 18th/19thC Irish sugan is different to a Scottish sugan, as
> both are different from an English example .... and so on.
Oh I agree that a bodger knocking off a custom piece for the local weaver could
hardly be called a production item, but making chairs of all local types would be
his regular trade. I had an opportunity last time I was across the pond to spend
some time with a bodger and I was amazed how fast he could turn up the parts using a
spring pole lathe.
>
>
> We, here on this side of the pond, have many examples of country made
> furniture. made for a purpose, and made in various forms depending on
> the regional (cultural) location, which would most certainly be
> regarded as 'folk art' furniture - eg: is a famine chair 'folk art'
> or not? err, an Irish one, of course, as I don't think 'the famine'
> fits too well into English history :)
A famine chair would be considered Folk art or "Primitive" over here to, they're
similar to a lot of backwoods chairs one used to run into at Canadian country
auctions back in the 60's. Quite possibly these chairs could have been made by the
same Irish that had managed to leave the old sod for Canada.
>
>
> *** btw, I'm not really qualified to make comments on 'Shaker'
> however, IMHO the style (and concept) originally I would regard most
> certainly as 'folk art' ..... but then the style has been so
> commercialized and the original concept been so bastardized by the
> modern day perspective.
The Shaker stuff in nearly all cases, with the exception of custom pieces for the
communities own use, was mass produced and sold to the general public to help
support their communities. For example Shakers of the New Lebanon colony in New York
made and sold 7 sizes of chairs, each virtually identical to others of the same
model number. The Shakers were a very inventive lot, credited with or improved upon
inventions like the table saw, power molders, planers and duplicating lathes, all
which enabled them to increase efficiency and production.
Repros of the stuff is all over the place these days, some of it not badly done, the
funny thing is some of the guys reproducing the style have less tools in their shops
than the Shakers ;~))
>
>
> --
> Ronnie
Mike
jJim Horne
Ronnie McKinley wrote in message
<099a4v8548784mbbn...@4ax.com>...
>In rec.antiques "jJim Horne" <j...@horne111.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I think you said it Fayette,
whatever
>>your definition is, thats what it is. Folk Art, Pop Art, Whatever Art, its
>>just a name some smart ass dealer type - fashion maker - know f*** all -
>>chancer gives something to bang the price up.
>
>
>
>
>...... err, what about singing without accompaniment in your native
>language ... is that 'folk art?'
>
>
>
>
>--
>Ronnie
so its a folk art in extracting the Bawbees frae eegits : )) and the native
language which would be Pictish is unknown, Gaelic is, as you know an Irish
import brought in by them everso plausible Bible - punching monks !!!!!!
about 600 a.d. though I must admit it has a fine lilt to it, and must have
made the dull traucle of the daily chores ( making Folk art for the
Tourists ) a bit less tiresome. ; )
Jim
jJim Horne
Ronnie McKinley wrote in message ...
>In rec.antiques "jJim Horne" <j...@horne111.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>and the native
>>language which would be Pictish is unknown,
>
>
>
>
>Pict!!! .... the original IRA ..... "I Ran Away" ... hehehe.
>
>
>Hey Jimmy ... is Robin Williamson a Pict or a Scot?? :)))
>
>
>Fancy a drag? <phew .... oh that smoke)
>
>
>
>
>--
>Ronnie
Begone Demon, tempt me not......: ))
Robin was from Edinburgh !!!
capiche !! Aye the poor Picts maligned with daubs of woad.....
true telepathes, and pyschopaths !!!!!
" I never gambled, I never gargled, I never smoked at all
" until I ........... fill in the line, and the performer, if ye can ???
; ))
Jim
jJim Horne
>And he gets himself up onto one elbow
>And he turns to his mates who are gathered around
>And he says:
>
>
>Watch me wallabies feed, mate
>Watch me wallabies feed
>They're a dangerous breed, mate
>So watch me wallabies feed
>
>
>All together now
>
>
>Keep me cockatoo cool, Kool
>Keep me cockatoo cool
>Don't go away from the fool, Kool
>Just keep me cockatoo cool!
>
>
>
>--
>Ronnie
Ha, your a boy indeed ! right singer wrong song !! should
be " until I met my two good amigos Nick Teen an Al K Hall " Oh I could go
on.. and on... but I wont , thank Christ he says !! I`m off to bed singing "
Somebodies pinched me winkles " !!!! Sunday at Ingleston, oh wow ; )
Cheers
Jim
Janice Hudnall
Maryann
And where does "outside art" fit into all of this?
Maryann
"Anything can be anywhere!"
Smorgass Bored
Re: Folk Art
Folk Art
And where does "outside art" fit into all of this?
Maryann
(*<~ Yeah, and what about 'trench art' ?
Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
> In rec.antiques Wilcox & Hall Appraisers wrote:
>
> >Oh I agree that a bodger knocking off a custom piece for the local weaver could
> >hardly be called a production item, but making chairs of all local types would be
> >his regular trade.
>
> So what, Mike? What are you saying, that a person with a regular
> trade, his/her products cannot be regarded as 'folk art?' Or their
> country furniture making style isn't a folk art?
>
> I have a pair of Irish weaver's chairs. So distinctive in style and
> construction that they can be genuinely placed to the very County in
> which they were originally made. So desirable that the Ulster Folk
> Museum and Folk Park have been plaguing me for the last 10 years to
> sell for their museum, as they don't have such fine examples from this
> County in their already vast collection of Irish folk art. And folk
> art not solely confined to furniture, you name it, they have it. But
> sadly not always on view, like most museums mostly in storage in the
> basement.
>
> --
> Ronnie
Hi Ronnie,
I'm going by what the North American description of Folk Art is, and how it would
apply in a auction listing, not my own personal opinion. The great majority of items
at auction called folk art or offered in shops are cobbled together bits by largely
unskilled people from the late 19th Century to the 1930's. These are things like
whirley gigs, weathervanes, game boards and trade signs in the form of giant teeth,
barber poles etc... it also includes primitive style artwork and samples.
Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
> In rec.antiques Wilcox & Hall Appraisers wrote:
> > I had an opportunity last time I was across the pond to spend
> >some time with a bodger and I was amazed how fast he could turn up the parts using a
> >spring pole lathe.
> >
>
> An old mate of mine who had been in the hi-fi trade for 20 years or
> more dropped out (a few years ago) and moved to the wild West Coast of
> Ireland. He now makes chairs and other small turned objects on an old
> original and authentic pole-lathe, using native and locally grown
> woods. Mostly acquired from fallen tree stock which he barters for.
>
> Although, he sell these objects, mostly to the well-heeled 'blow-ins'
> of the area, he still regards himself as a 'folk artist' and carrying
> on a centuries old tradition and trade.
>
> (btw ... his wife (partner) runs a herb garden, her (large) surplus is
> sold locally. At one time (in the early days) she sold exclusivity to
> the large chain store supermarkets, until she realized, these people
> were only a bunch of mercenary bastards, wised up and booted them out)
>
> --
> Ronnie
Ahh, Luddites of the world Unite*! ;~)). I'm a great fan of cottage industry and small
business generally. We have a local market we shop at that has been in operation almost
163 years downtown that offers fresh produce, organic herbs, meat and poultry when in
season.
Over here in my neck of the woods the term "Folk Artist" isn't used much, we tend to
refer to anyone who builds pieces in a traditional or regional style as a "Craftman" or
simply a cabinet maker, weaver or carver. What passes for modern folk art is that
dreadful stuff in pastel colours and floral stencils ;~))
* Luddites worked about 4.5 hours a day, split up between the loom, garden and pub ;~)),
I guess they were right after all!
Mike Wilcox