ivory dominoes
george cummings
of old ( 35-40 yrs only ) dominoes that are solid ivory. They are in the
original silk box, but the box has fallen apart. It was a gift from an
uncle when my wife was a kid. She wishes to sell them, but we don't know
where to go to get an honest appraisal.
Can anyone guide us as to how to obtain a reasonable appraisal ( or give
us your own guess as to their value ). We live in the Phoenix Az area.
thanks.
george c
Hugh Blanchard
I caution you to stand by, because you may receive some serious flames
because you have posted an ad for ivory. Ivory is now a politically
incorrect product.
I don't say this to criticize you nor to promote ivory..I want the
elephants to LIVE, not be killed for their tusks. I suspect from your
article that you are the innocent heir of these articles.
I'd prefer that you simply dispose of these articles, and not promote the
ivory market. Failing that, I'd sell them at auction and be done with it.
Best regards, Hugh Blanchard
ROSS, GEORGE RAY, JR
Hugh has posted a very polite, but very opinionated reply to George C's
request. I would like to offer another viewpoint. George C has what
could be a valuable set of dominoes (I have no knowledge of the value
of ivory) and Hugh suggests that he simply dispose of them because they
are no longer politically correct. While we are at it why don't we destroy
everything that anyone finds offensive. Nude pictures and statues, little
black sambo books, and many other things found offensive by people
are also discussed on rec.antiques and rarely prompt this kind of reply.
I don't think that we should go around destroying things just
because some people find them offensive. I'm sure that most people
don't approve of killing elephants for their tusks, but that doesn't
mean that the ivory items that currently exist shouldn't be enjoyed.
In my opinion, the best way to discourage trade in new ivory is to get
all the ivory that is collecting dust in closets out in the market and
drive the prices down. It is obvious that George C. is talking about
some old ivory here and is not dealing in illegal ivory. I've included
an excerpt form his post below:
George Ross
George c posted
>>I am new to this group and hope I am not off topic, but my wife has a set
>>of old ( 35-40 yrs only ) dominoes that are solid ivory. They are in the
>>original silk box, but the box has fallen apart. It was a gift from an
>>uncle when my wife was a kid. She She wishes to sell them, but we don't know
Nancy Dooley
>From: grr...@vms2.tamu.edu (ROSS, GEORGE RAY, JR)
>Subject: Re: ivory dominoes
>Date: 3 Apr 1996 08:59 CST
>George Ross
Way to go, George Ross! You said what I think everytime I see someone
chastized for owning NOW PC-incorrect items. These were not non-pc when they
were created, and no matter how one feels about the market in new ivory, one
cannot go back and change history. To me, it's saying the "Minutemen" should
be changed to "Minutepersons," or worse, ignored in history. I always get a
kick out of that one.
Nancy Dooley
"Celebrate our State." IOWA'S Sesquicentennial year, 1846-1996.
geo...@primenet.com
>>>I am new to this group and hope I am not off topic, but my wife has a set
>>>of old ( 35-40 yrs only ) dominoes that are solid ivory. They are in the
>>>original silk box, but the box has fallen apart. It was a gift from an
>>>uncle when my wife was a kid. She She wishes to sell them, but we don't
know
>>>where to go to get an honest appraisal.
any animals ( endangered or not ) just to make trinkets of their body parts
... NOR will I be stupid over someones idea of 'political correctness' ! I
see NO reason to 'hide the evidence' by disposing of these in my backyard. If
you wanna talk about 'CORRECT' ... how about assuming the worst in another
person without just cause ? Having inherited these items does not in any way
imply that I support or condone the killing of animals of any kind for any
reason other than survival ( I had a hamburger for lunch ... sorry, but I was
hungry ). These items were purchased long before people realized what we were
doing to our one-and-only planet. I have no guilt at all about owning them or
about attempting to sell them for a reasonable price. Just how will the
elephants benifit if we 'sell them at auction' anyway ? The implication that
I am somehow 'guilty' of something by virtue of inheritance of ivory items is
just a wee bit off target ( couple of miles or so ). Thanks for the advice
anyway ...
george c
Barry L. Van Hook
<<<<<<<SNIP to George's rejoinder>>>>>>>>>>>
I fully support you, George, in your position relative to these perfectly
legal items. I have observed that one way in which to measure precisely how
serious an advocate might be is how solidly they stand up for those
things they advocate. If *I* truly felt that your possession of these
specimen was somehow "wrong", then the very best thing I could do would be to
put my money where my mouth is, buy them from you at a fair price, then
dispose of them as I saw fit .... after all, it would then be my property.
But by implying that I best "know" how you should deal with your own
property, I can wrap myself in a cloak of moral superiority without any real
inconvenience or investment other than some cheap words, particularly if you
should be so neanderthal as to ignore my advice. How arrogant these
people are .... but how utterly predictable of that sort of mentality. Stay
the course, George.
Barry
Barry L. Van Hook (van...@asu.edu)
Management Department, College of Business
Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ 85287-4006
Phone (602) 965-1217 FAX (602) 965-8314
EA J
nothing illegal or (or immoral for that matter) about old ivory, the
politically correct monitors notwithstanding. i do have a practical
question: when was the cutoff between "new" and "old" ivory? in other
words, when was the law passed that made trading in ivory items illegal?
i too have a beautiful "old" ivory piece (mine is probably 1880's) and i
would just like to know for my own peace of mind. thanks.
In article <4jvbmd$s...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, geo...@primenet.com wrote:
> In article <3APR1996...@vms2.tamu.edu>,
> grr...@vms2.tamu.edu (ROSS, GEORGE RAY, JR) wrote:
> >In article <4jsjbj$10...@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>, VTP...@prodigy.com
(Hugh
> Blanchard) writes...
> >>Dear George,
> >>I caution you to stand by, because you may receive some serious flames
> >>because you have posted an ad for ivory. Ivory is now a politically
> >>incorrect product......
> >
> While we are at it why don't we destroy >everything that anyone finds
offensive. ....It is obvious that George C. is talking about
> >some old ivory here and is not dealing in illegal ivory.
> >
> >George c posted
> >>> my wife has a setmof old ( 35-40 yrs only ) dominoes that are solid
ivory.
> My wife inherited these ... we did not ... do not ... and will not ... kill
> any animals ( endangered or not ) just to make trinkets of their body parts
> ... NOR will I be stupid over someones idea of 'political correctness
AMEN.
Karen Eldred
'nancy-...@uiowa.edu (Nancy Dooley)' wrote:
>Way to go, George Ross! You said what I think everytime I see someone
>chastized for owning NOW PC-incorrect items. These were not non-pc when
they
>were created, and no matter how one feels about the market in new ivory,
one
>cannot go back and change history.
"PC" reply and just thought "I'll stay out of this" but you're absolutely
right. There are very few out there who think that elephants were put on
earth for man to kill and carve up their teeth, but the fact remains that
ivory has been traded and carved for millenia. Thank God for the fact that
there is now some protection against the slaughter, but calling ivory art
not 'politically correct' and saying it should be hidden away in some kind
of embarassment is ludicrous. That means that the beautiful religious
works of Europe, the incredible carvings of China, early carvings from
Africa, should be shoved into a hole somewhere and buried?
There are embroideries that were done in China before the turn of the
century using a stitch that we now call the "Forbidden Stitch", because
the Chinese government passed laws against using it. Too many women and
children damaged or lost their eyesight in making these exquisite silk
pieces for the court and nobility. This barely *makes* the "PC" question,
it was a dreadful exploitation of human beings and no-one even has to have
that explained to them. But no-one is interested in throwing all these
creations onto a fire because of how they were made 100 years ago! We
thank heaven that as a race we make halting progress forward (sometimes)
and that, if possible, we will prevent the abuses that we recognize as we
evolve from happening again.
Of COURSE we are not talking about modern ivory. I for one have a shop,
and would *not* handle modern ivories. In fact I'm not interested in
anything newer than about 1910 and would not have it in the shop if its
newer. I have to have a special license by the way (a New York State
issued one, to prevent any confusion) to sell it in the shop.
Karen
NYC
email - tick...@pipeline.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves, or we know where
we can find information upon it." .. Dr. Samuel Johnson
al pippus
>Re: ivory dominoes>
>
>Of COURSE we are not talking about modern ivory. I for one have a shop,
>and would *not* handle modern ivories. In fact I'm not interested in
>anything newer than about 1910 and would not have it in the shop if its
>newer. I have to have a special license by the way (a New York State
>issued one, to prevent any confusion) to sell it in the shop.
>Karen
Years ago, I frequently consulted recognized experts in the administration
of CITES, cultural properties, etc., and was consistently told that old
from new was difficult to impossible - depending on circumstances, and
enscriptions notwithstanding..
The expert doctoring of Convention items, I found, is no different than
with other goods, so I an not certain about the significance of the 1910
date. Out of the thousands of pieces, I recall immediately recognized the
difference between the two-three hundred year old piece that came out of
the jungle, as opposed to the newly processed Hong Kong item. On the other
hand virtually all 'doctored' items easily fooled me - as to their age.
In the USA (or New York state) somewhere, there must be a warehouse full to
the ceiling of confiscated ivory - and it would be interesting to hear if
the experts there would confirm, more or less, what I have stated. In
fact, the reason CITES was set up the way it was, was because of that very
reason - the difficulty to readily identify goods.
Controlling trade in endangered species is a complex problem, but I too
don't think we should destroy every old ivory work in the world.
alp
Floyd B. Mack
>
> this debate over ivory is far too intense!! the fact is that there is
> nothing illegal or (or immoral for that matter) about old ivory, the
> politically correct monitors notwithstanding. i do have a practical
> question: when was the cutoff between "new" and "old" ivory? in other
> words, when was the law passed that made trading in ivory items illegal?
> i too have a beautiful "old" ivory piece (mine is probably 1880's) and i
> would just like to know for my own peace of mind. thanks.
>
The CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) Treaty was
signed in 1977. The United States permits the importation of ivory provided
it is at least 100 years old and other requirements are met. More information
can be gotten by writing to:
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Office of Management Authority
4401 N. Fairfax Drive, Room 432
Arlington, VA 22203
Telephone number is 1-800-358-2104 as of 2/93.
I have a couple of ivory pieces that I have documented as being late 19th
century. I have no problem with owning them and I have no problem with other
people owning ivory -- provided it was done legally. I have no sympathy for
anyone's losses (any loss whatsoever -- read whatever you wish into that) when
it comes to poaching and destruction of animals simply for the teeth.
--
Floyd Mack
Southern Yankee in Britain
LeAnne
<lots of stuff snipped>
>Nancy Dooley
>"Celebrate our State." IOWA'S Sesquicentennial year, 1846-1996.
Hey, this is our Sesquicentennial year down here in Texas also.
I have one line of my family that moved here from Georgia in 1839
& I am planning to visit the family homestead this summer. Been in
the same family since the log cabin was built...Kind of incredible
these days to find a piece of property owned by the same family for
that long (at least, it is here in Texas!)
I'm hoping to stop & do some antiquing along the way....but, the
antiques I know I'll find are mostly cuzzins (circa 1914.)
Another "Nancy" (but I usually use my middle name!)
--
LeAnne Davis e-mail: nl...@msg.ti.com
Configuration Management
Texas Instruments
214-952-5386
Disclaimer: My opinions are not TI's except by coincidence!