Rookwood Vase
kwst
trancery
> We are trying to find some info on a Rookwood vase that was made in
> 1901,stands 18in. high and is blue with an ocean scene. It is also
> signed by maker.
>
====
No need for that, just let me take it off your hands.
;)
T.
--
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Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
Gillam Kerley
>
> We are trying to find some info on a Rookwood vase that was made in
> 1901,stands 18in. high and is blue with an ocean scene. It is also
> signed by maker.
If you own (or are considering buying) such a vase, you can afford to
buy a book on Rookwood. Actually, you can probably afford to buy an
entire library of books.
GK
Ronnie McKinley
>If you own (or are considering buying) such a vase, you can afford to
>buy a book on Rookwood. Actually, you can probably afford to buy an
>entire library of books.
>
What a fecking cop-out.
So "we" are only giving information out to the poor?
'Sorry don't post your expensive stuff here, you rich person, besides,
we really much prefer to talk about shite, but you probably have
noticed that already.'
Why did you bother to respond in the first place, or have you just
misled your Rookwood "price guide" but was busting to post one of your
"witty" remarks?
Add to the FAQs .... Sub section 6a "Rich people with items over ten
bucks in value (or anything else *I* can't afford) will get a dumb-ass
response from our residence knuckle-head Mr. Price Guide"
In rec.antiques kwst wrote:
> We are trying to find some info on a Rookwood vase that was made in
>1901,stands 18in. high and is blue with an ocean scene. It is also
>signed by maker.
>
Ronnie
=======
"Can't we get you on Mastermind, Sybil? Next contestant
Sybil Fawlty from Torquay, special subject the bleeding obvious"
=================================================================
Gillam Kerley
>
> In rec.antiques, GK wrote:
>
> >If you own (or are considering buying) such a vase, you can afford to
> >buy a book on Rookwood. Actually, you can probably afford to buy an
> >entire library of books.
> >
>
> What a fecking cop-out.
>
> So "we" are only giving information out to the poor?
You're free to give out information to anyone you please. So, Ronnie,
tell us all about this vase. It's 1901, 18 inches, ocean scene, signed
by maker; that should be plenty of info for you. Perhaps you can even
tell us if "signed by maker" means "signed by artist" -- and who the
artist was -- or if the vase just has the Rookwood mark on the bottom.
<more babbling snipped>
> Add to the FAQs .... Sub section 6a "Rich people with items over ten
> bucks in value (or anything else *I* can't afford) will get a dumb-ass
> response from our residence knuckle-head Mr. Price Guide"
That's "resident" knuckle-head Mr. Price Guide, Ronnie.
GK
Ronnie McKinley
>You're free to give out information to anyone you please. So, Ronnie,
>tell us all about this vase. It's 1901, 18 inches, ocean scene, signed
>by maker; that should be plenty of info for you.
You're an asshole Gillam, first class. What the feck knowledge would I
have on Rookwood? Have I **EVER** posted any info on Rookwood or
entered into a Rookwood discussion EVER in this ng? NO! .. and why? .
because just like **you** I know fuck all about it, but at LEAST I
have an excuse, what's your excuse, other than being a second-hand
bric-a-brac dealer with a big mouth?
However, IMO there's enough info there for someone with *true*
knowledge on Rookwood (an American) to have a stab in answering the
question with reason and logic, and IMO, any bloody American dealer
worth his/her salt would have some reasonable knowledge on Rookwood.
The poster made an honest post with adequate info, re his/her Rookwood
piece, perhaps the most famous of all the American potteries, and what
happens .. some godshite tells the poster . "you can probably afford
to buy an entire library of books" ... what does that shite mean?
.. it's a cop-out, Mr Price Guide.
>That's "resident" knuckle-head Mr. Price Guide, Ronnie.
My God, is that the best you can do ... what a fecking twat you really
are. Away to the bog with ya, and read another one of your Price
Guides.
Carol Millar
I just returned from the local antique mall where I went to buy the
Lehner marks book you recommended. It looks really good, and was a
bargain at 25 USD. Unfortunately the book next to it was European
marks, and in size looked very much the same, however it was 100 USD. So
now I own 2 very nice books on marks, but at these prices, I don't think
I could get a whole library for the price of most Rookwood vases (at
least not like the Rookwood vase I have to sell) :-).
I wanted the European marks book to try and find the mark that is on my
bisque statue group I bought at the last estate sale. I thought the mark
on the bottom was from a magic marker that some kid had used on it, but
when I got it home I saw that it was a cross (not an X) done with a
brush in blue ceramic glaze. The four similar cross marks that I found
in my pitiful marks book did not seem right. Varages, Leed, Bristol or
Fulda, so hopefullly I will find something in the new book.
If anyone plans to go to Barnes and Nobles to look up antiques (or even
buy an antique book), forget it. They have scaled back their selection
and now have 3 out of the 5 bookcases formerly devoted to antiques,
filled with Barbie and Beanie Baby Books, BUMMER.
Carol
Gillam Kerley wrote:
>
> If you own (or are considering buying) such a vase, you can afford to
> buy a book on Rookwood. Actually, you can probably afford to buy an
> entire library of books.
>
> GK
ReyneH
Try doing your collectible and antique guide book buying at
Usually cheaper than the retail bookstores and a much more broad selection.
Also
http://www.bibliofind.com
http://www.abebooks.com
For out of print books
Reyne
Reyne Haines
Just Glass Auctions - http://www.JustGlass.com
Vintage Glass - http://members.aol.com/VintGlass/index.htm
Moderator, Art Glass Discussion Group - Ask me about it!
Michele Mauro
my new used car recently. Amazon listed it at $17.95 retail, with a 20%
discount, bringing it down to $14.36.
That sounded pretty good until I went to Pep Boys and saw the list price
was actually $16.99 and they were selling it for $11.99 - and I didn't
have to pay $3 in shipping either. That's not the first time I've seen
the wrong "list price" on an Amazon book either.
If it's a hard-to-find book that even the large bookstores don't carry,
then Amazon is not too bad. If you're looking for antiques/collectible
books though, and need 6 or more, then try www.lwbooks.com - 30-40% off
on orders of 6 or more books.
Have fun, Michele
--
Change 'nospam' to 'chaos' to reply via email.
ReyneH wrote in message
<19990324125100...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
Carol Millar
book NOW, and I like to flip through it to see how it's laid out.
I hope lots of people want European marks looked up since I now have
this book with no mark even close to what I was looking for, and I
rarely get involved with pottery, so I'd like to think it was good for
something.
Carol
Bob Clark
However, there is precious little in kwst's post to go on. What marks
are on the base? Rookwood, more than most pottery, is usually an "open
book" when you have that info - which we don't. At this point all I can
say is:
-it's an uncommon size
-it's an uncommon subject
-it's probably beautiful
-it's value is somewhere between a year's tuition and a year's
subscription, depending on condition
-I wish I had it (need one more to have a "collection")
Yours in obsessive collecting - Bob
Mike Wilcox
>
> We are trying to find some info on a Rookwood vase that was made in
> 1901,stands 18in. high and is blue with an ocean scene. It is also
> signed by maker.
>
I tried to have a squint at it, but nothing came up from your attached
image, do you have a url where I could see it? Man, I love a mystery!
--
Mike Wilcox
"Free Appraisal's are like free beer, they always want more"
Visit Antique's 101 Via our site at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/wilcox.hall.2ndcentury
Ronnie McKinley
>Agreed, Ronnie (!), minus the profanity and personal attack.
Excuse my "profanity" Bob, I do hope it didn't offend you too much.
"Personal attack?" .. my personal professional viewpoint, as a dealer,
on another "so claimed* dealer and his ridiculous attitude, do please
remember I have been reading Mr G.K. Price Guide and his repetitive
offerings for a number of YEARS already.
So, I open a post on Rookwood and think to myself .. "Oh here's an
interesting subject, and a true blue merkin one, that should bring in
some knowledgable contributions of worth and merit, they'll be keen to
get at this piece"
A subject I know very little about, but certainly a fine and an
important pottery, an example of which, I would dearly love to own
someday should complement my Moorcroft collection. Even, I may get to
know something about from the folks in here, like scratch my back and
I'll scratch yours .... But oh no!
What do I read? .. but yet another piece of useless shite from none
other than Mr. G.K. Price Guide himself. It becomes somewhat tedious,
instant trash a thread, merely succeeding to turn it into yet another
review on "Which Price Guide - For Me" and my little book of pointless
marks.
>However, there is precious little in kwst's post to go on.
The poster provided the following ...
"made in 1901" .... Are the dates correct? does it fall within the
Rookwood heyday? Who owned the factory then?
"stands 18in. high" ... That seems impressive to me, is 18inches a big
piece for Rookwood? or average/small, for the normal factory output?
If that was a piece of Moorcroft pottery (the nearest Brit equivalent)
18 inches would be an impressive size, not the largest by any means,
but would nevertheless attract a good deal of interest.
"is blue with an ocean scene" .. Now, I would have thought that may be
an important clue. An "ocean scene?" .. is that typical of Rookwood?
Is that a recognizable pattern? An unusual subject matter, for the
Rookwood factory? Which "ocean" could be depicted in the scene? Or did
Rookwood never produce such a pattern? So many questions (I would have
assumed), simply arising from that pattern description alone? On the
**little** I know about Rookwood, an "ocean scene" would seem an
unusual subject to me ... maybe not?
"It is also signed by maker" ... How did Rookwood normally mark
pieces? Again I assume, pieces normally bear the "Rookwood" factory
mark? Was there always an artist's mark that accompanied the
"Rookwood" factory mark? Or did the artist signature appear without a
Rookwood factory mark? What artist/s worked for Rookwood around the
turn of the century? The "ocean scene" is there any particular artist
that one could be attribute to?
All that, plus the excellent points you have raised in your response,
I thought, would make and perhaps develop into a interesting subject
on one of the greatest pottery of the late 19th and early 20th
centuries working in the decorative arts. A true blue all American
subject.
... BUT oh no! .. the poster is told 'go away and buy a library of
books' and the reason, some mindless assumption that he/she must be
"well-heeled" because they post with an expensive piece of pottery,
and therefore they should go out and buy books, and NOT ONCE (that I
could see) did the poster even ask a question on the monetary worth.
Profanity?? .... I was being kind to Mr. G.K. Price Guide, but you
have the ball now, care to kick it around?
Ronnie
=======
"Precious time is slipping away,
you know you're only king for a day
Dosen't matter to which God you pray,
'cos, precious time is slippin' away"
========================================
Greg Blum
kwst <kw...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
>
> We are trying to find some info on a Rookwood vase that was made in
>signed by maker.
>
Despite what some other folks may contend, this really isn't enough info to
tell you all that much. There are a few basic questions that you need to
answer, and a really accurate assessment would require a hands on look at
the piece, or at the very least a good quality picture.
First, you need to describe EVERY mark on the bottom in some detail.
Of prime importance is what you mean by "signed by maker." Some people
use this to just mean the standard Rookwood logo, others use the term to
talk about the mark of a specific artist. A piece such as you described
almost has to be artist done, but valuation requires that the artist
be identified.
The other important piece of info missing is if the vase is matte or glossy.
Rookwood had a lot of glaze lines at the turn of the century, and the values
of them vary significantly.
Next is the condition of the piece. Is there any damage, factory flaw, or
repair to it? Is it crazed? Any of these could effect value by as much as
80%.
Last is the actual quality of the decoration. Ocean scene is good... it's
a somewhat uncommon and popular scene, but how good is it? This somewhat
subjective determination has an immense effect on the value.
Overall, you could have a VERY valuable vase. 18" is very large, and large
pieces bring quite a premium. If it is real Rookwood, in perfect condition,
by the right artist, and in the right glaze line, you could be talking
over $30K easily. Especially note the caveat about "real Rookwood." There
are a lot of fakes showing up these days, and many have been these really
large pieces.
I'd shell out the time and money to do some research on something like this.
Good luck.
trancery
these really
large pieces."
Thanks Greg, I hadn't heard of these. But I have never had a big, old
piece of Rookwood, either,
darn it!
Mike Wilcox
> are a lot of fakes showing up these days, and many have been these really
> large pieces.
>
>
> Good luck.
An 18" Rookwood vase is unusual, and very costly wish I could get a look
at it, but I still can't see the image, just a black background. Man
,technology is a pain sometimes!
Carol Millar
that would buy a fairly good library.
Wrong Again
Carol
Carol Millar wrote:
>
> Gillam, a few books maybe, a whole library, I don't think so.
>
Ronnie McKinley
>Despite what some other folks may contend, this really isn't enough info to
>tell you all that much.
Geez Greg, I don't know about that, you have produced an excellent
post and a pretty good job, considering the sparse information
provided. At the same time, you have managed to rise a number of
interesting and ponderable points regarding the aesthetic subjectivity
of pottery (Rookwood) And, to top it off, you have answered and
addressed all the points I raised in my response to Bob. Where have
you been hiding? Much appreciated. :-)
Now hopefully, the original poster will not get the impression we all
eat sour grapes in this ng, and who knows, at the end of the day the
poster might decide to flog the Rookwood, and buy a good library of
books instead. :>)
Gillam Kerley
>
> Carol
>
> Try doing your collectible and antique guide book buying at
>
> http://www.amazon.com
>
Also, for books about antiques and collectibles, both Collectors Books
(don't know if they have a site) and <http://www.lwbooks.com> give 40%
off on orders of 6 or more books.
GK
Gillam Kerley
Unfortunately the book next to it was European
> marks, and in size looked very much the same, however it was 100 USD.
Which European marks book was it, Carol?
GK
Carol Millar
Robert E. Rontgen
It didn't have my mark in it, or any of the other 4 similar ones that I
found in my el cheapo.
Nice book though,
Carol
Gillam Kerley
> I'd shell out the time and money to do some research on something like this.
I certainly hope you don't mean that he should buy a book on Rookwood.
;-)
GK
Double D Auction
price has stalled me. Is it even remotely worth it?
Debbie
Gillam Kerley
>
> Marks on German, Bohemian and Austrian Porcelain 1710 to Present by
> Robert E. Rontgen
Do you have a pic of the mark? I'd be happy to check the two European
marks books I have (Danckert's "Directory of European Porcelain" and
Chaffer's "Marks & Monograms on Pottery & Porcelain").
GK
jon.d2...@ukonline.co.uk
People are really strange about buying specialist books, dealers
included. There's no hesitation in buying items in your knowledge
range for hundreds, but pay 100 dollars/pounds on a specialist
book..never! I have never 'wasted' money on specialist books as they
have always earned me their cost ten times over, either by helping me
correctly ID an object, or by warning me about fakes and forgeries.
Jon
BTW Price guides are useful for ID-ing objects, but ignore the values.
Many of my metalware items have appeared in Millers and Lyles (usually
under KEY or HAN dealers) and the price has been *much* higher than
the end dealer sold it on for ??
Please remove the ADKOHC before replying by email.
***** Posted via the UK Online online newsreader *****
Go to http://www.ukonline.co.uk to find out
about other online services we offer our subscribers.
Ronnie McKinley
>BTW Price guides are useful for ID-ing objects, but ignore the values.
Holy kovels Jon, a 100 quid for a book!! you barking or something.
Truth be known, my full inventory wouldn't add up to that sort of
money, well the buying-in price that is. I've just bought another
wonderful price guide "The 1999 Watchtower Publications Price Guide."
Course, when I'm finished "reading" all my price guides and my "Handy
Little Pocket Size Collectors' Guide to Marks of the World" I can
always flog 'em off, hopefully to another price guide "antique"
collector .. BTW I have an original 1981 Miller's, first edition in
perfect condition, is that worth anything?
Man I just luv those price guides.
Ronnie
=====
The Armchair Antique Collector
========================
jon.d2...@ukonline.co.uk
>In rec.antiques, jon.d2...@ukonline.co.uk wrote:
>
>>BTW Price guides are useful for ID-ing objects, but ignore the
values.
>
>Holy kovels Jon, a 100 quid for a book!! you barking or something.
Yes, but that's taken as 'read' (arf, arf) Many of the specialist
antique books are either private issue or many years out of print, I
suppose I pay 45-60 quid for most of them. Knowledge is power and it
ain't always free !!
Try buying a Sir William Russell-Flint book containing prints by the
famous watercolour artist for less than 250 !
It works both ways. About 5 years ago I bought a 19thC book called
"Golf Links of Great Britain" by Hutchinson for 20 pence (30 cents).
It looked good so I rang an advertiser in Millers specialising in golf
items. He said, "I'll give you four fifty for it" I thought, great,
nearly five pounds. He asked if four fifty was OK, but I hesitated. He
said "I'm sorry, that's my final offer, I never pay FIVE HUNDRED for
that book"!!!! Yep, I got four hundred and fifty pounds for that one.
Jon
Please remove the DJWHYY before replying by email.
Ronnie McKinley
>It works both ways. About 5 years ago I bought a 19thC book called
>"Golf Links of Great Britain" by Hutchinson for 20 pence (30 cents).
>It looked good so I rang an advertiser in Millers specialising in golf
>items. He said, "I'll give you four fifty for it" I thought, great,
>nearly five pounds. He asked if four fifty was OK, but I hesitated. He
>said "I'm sorry, that's my final offer, I never pay FIVE HUNDRED for
>that book"!!!! Yep, I got four hundred and fifty pounds for that one.
I didn't know folk collected golf links. Geez you would need an awful
big garden to display them all. Oops! maybe you meant cuff links. ;>
I'm away to open my emporium of the strange and wonderful the junk
shop on the hill ... maybe catch ya later. ;>
Whoosh!!!!!!!!! .. keep the head down Jon! there goes another Tornado.
Ronnie
========
"Little Jimmy's gone Way out of the backstreet
Out of the window Through the fallin' rain
Right on time Right on time"
===============================================
Bob Clark
Well done!
Ronnie wrote:
"...some mindless assumption that he/she must be 'well-heeled' <snip>"
Actually, my paranoid nature was more suspicious of a troll.
Determining the date involves deciphering the flame marks, not to
mention the makers mark itself. So some research/inquiery has been done
by the poster - seems strange they didn't add more info as most sources
would stress the importance therein...
I'm not going to go overboard unless the poster accepts the invite I
e-mailed to them to return & fill in the blanks.
The two pieces I have - both Standard glaze florals by Sallie Coyne -
are enchanting in their 3-D "decoupage" (sp?) effect. Rarely seen up
here in any form, at any rate.
Sad, true story - had an aunt in Cincinati, Ohio where Rookwood was
located who collected them for years before they got "hot". She aged,
the neighborhood changed - ended up having everything stolen in a series
of robberies. What a world....
kwst
kwst
Carol Millar
and know little to nothing about it. When I did estate sales I always
called in someone who was "expert" in the field to do the pricing.
This book has 370 pages of marks, 10 per page in the outer column. The
next column has the name, location, dates, and in some cases a 3 or 4
word explanation of the mark. The next column has the same info in
German.
The next 140 pages list the makers alphabetically by city with a line or
two of expanation. I'm not sure what good this is since I have never
seen the city listed on a piece of porcelain. (I could be wrong).
The last 80 pages are descriptions and explanations of "marks that look
like other marks". (Information given in both English and German.)
If 3700 marks are a lot to have available, I suppose this book would be
good for identification purposes and then one could go to a different
reference to find out information about the maker.
It would seem to me that a book that covered just the 1800's but more
completely would be of more benefit in this country.
Double D Auction wrote:
>
> Carol, I've been debating about that very book for a long time now, but the
> price has stalled me. Is it even remotely worth it?
Comparing this book with other 100 USD books I have (a very few) I don't
think it is worth it.:-)
Carol
> Debbie
Smorgass Bored
All by E.T.Hurley
Fish,vellum,1906 (no size given),$4,510
Fish,Shades of Green,1906, 6 5/8"h., $2300.
Lake Scene,mountains,vellum,1942, 11"x5 1/4", $4,400
Tropical Birds,Pink heads,Violet bloosoms ,1924, 13"h., $3,850
(no charge),
Doug W.
~>*)))>< Big fish eat Little fish ><(((*<~
Smorgass Bored
All these vases by Edward T. Hurley
Vase 7"h.,4 fish,flora,fauna & coral against a multicolored ground,Sea
Green glaze,
#926D, $3,500.
Vase 8"h., two-handled,white wild roses, Vellu Glaze,#1655 E,1909, $575
Vase 11 1/2"h.,baluster form w/flaring rim, w/an exotic landscape filled
w/long tailed birds,leafy trees & flowers,#4432,1924, $1,980.
hope this helps,
ReyneH
>
Why not? If he bought a book on Rookwood it might tell him 1) when the item
was made 2) might help him figure out who the artist is as we know this is not
a production piece and 3) any other interesting or important aspects of the
vase like where it was produced, who started Rookwood pottery, and why - who
worked there, etc.
I don't remember where he got the vase, or if it is something he inherited, but
me personally - I would want to know all I could about the item itself, long
before the price.
Reyne
Carol Millar
Thanks for the offer to look up my mark, but I don't have a scanner.
I've been thinking of getting one, but really haven't had much use for
one until now.
My digital camera is the Ricoh 1, and doesn't do close ups, but I tried
it anyway, and my camera card drive went on the fritz. It picked up two
of the four pictures on the card and then went blank and everytime I try
to use it my computer freezes up completely. ah well, I'll worry about
it "tomorrow".
Thanks again,
Carol
Gillam Kerley wrote:
>
> Carol Millar wrote:
> >
> > Marks on German, Bohemian and Austrian Porcelain 1710 to Present by
> > Robert E. Rontgen
>
Carol Millar
same size as yours are listed at 3K-7K (not the same artist as yours).
They list their informational source as
Fer-duc, Inc.
Ferrara, Joseph
433 W. 21st st. #7F NY 10011-2906
212-627-5023
Specializing in American art pottery (Ohr and Rookwood).
You might try contacting him for more information.
Or put the vase up on ebay and watch the fun.
Carol
kwst wrote:
>
> Here is more info on the vase. I was mistaken in saying it was
> 1901....it's from 1909....stands 18' tall....has a velleum
> glaze......has the number 907B on the bottom...is signed by Edward
> Thomas Herley.....and has an ocean scean wrapped arounds it.
> We are NOT rich people....the vase was found in the trash, beleive it or
> not....and is in excellent shape, with the exception of some crazing
> which I understand is normal for a vase of it's time. I tried looking up
> its value in a book to no avail. Thank you for any help that is given.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
Ronnie McKinley
>I'm not going to go overboard unless the poster accepts the invite I
>e-mailed to them to return & fill in the blanks.
>
Well Bob, if the poster doesn't return perhaps you may reconsidering
get a little bit enthusiastic, at least just for my benefit, and
fill in a few of the blanks. Or maybe, I should just buy a book on
Rookwood along with a price guide, and cut out all the human
contact? ;>)
Ronnie McKinley
>From a book copyright 1990 (based on 1989 values);
>All these vases by Edward T. Hurley
>
Who was Edward T. Hurley, a short bio? What does the "T" stand for?
What was his dates? And his dates at Rookwood? Did he work for any
other factory/ies? Which one/s? Was he an important or a minor
Rookwood artist? Was he a decorative painter and/or a designer for
Rookwood as well? Did he design for anyone else? Did other Rookwood
painters decorate in his style? Would all his work for Rookwood be
signed? Is his work on the up-and-up? or has his work peaked? Is he
worth the current asking price ... in your opinion?
Gillam Kerley
>
> Here is more info on the vase. I was mistaken in saying it was
> 1901....it's from 1909....stands 18' tall....has a velleum
> glaze......has the number 907B on the bottom...is signed by Edward
> Thomas Herley.....and has an ocean scean wrapped arounds it.
> We are NOT rich people....the vase was found in the trash, beleive it or
> not....and is in excellent shape, with the exception of some crazing
> which I understand is normal for a vase of it's time. I tried looking up
> its value in a book to no avail. Thank you for any help that is given.
I don't know what book you looked in. A general guide like Kovels' or
Schroeder's is unlikely to be any help; a book specifically on Rookwood
should at least give you a range of values for Vellum vases, with some
in your size range, and a range of values for vases by E.T. Hurley (with
a "u"), who was a prominent Rookwood artist. It might also give some
clues to spotting fake/repro Rookwood, though I would probably obtain
the relevant issues of Antique & Collectors Reproduction News for this
purpose.
Once I established to my own satisfaction that the vase is genuine, and
gotten a sense of the possible value, I would either pay a qualified
appraiser for an insurance appraisal and get the appropriate rider on my
home insurance or, if I didn't want to keep it, consign the vase to a
specialty auction house.
Most of the people who come here asking for information have an object
which is mass-produced, commonplace, and not valuable enough to justify
buying a book, much less hiring an appraiser. Frankly, a lot of
these objects aren't worth spending two hours researching in a library.
Your vase is different; it deserves a proper appraisal from an
appraiser who specializes in high-end American art pottery.
No one here (including the Rookwood experts, of which I am certainly not
one) can see your vase, so they don't know if it is one of Hurley's best
works, or if he was having a bad day. They can't examine the vase with
a black light to see if there have been repairs or hidden damage. They
don't know if the piece has crazing or CRAZING. (BTW, while crazing is
often evidence of age, it is quite possible to artifically craze a
repro, so don't take the crazing as *proof* of authenticity.) If you
get a estimate of value here, if is a "bargain basement" appraisal, not
because the person doesn't know what he or she is talking about, but
because of the limitations of the medium. You may not be rich, but if
you own an authentic Rookwood vase, you can afford not to skimp on
having it evaluated and (if you're selling) finding the best place to
sell it. (And IMO you can't afford to do otherwise.)
We're talking about the difference between $1000 vases and $30,000 vases
here, not the difference between $10 Shawnee planters and $20 Shawnee
planters. Whether you are selling it or keeping (and insuring) it,
isn't it worth a couple hundred bucks in appraiser's fees to avoid
possibly making a $29,000 mistake?
Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about Rookwood will post with more
information about your vase, based on the additional info. I've been
looking at the Rookwood section of David Rago's "American Art Pottery",
and the Vellum vases pictured there are gorgeous. This style (based on
the French impressionists, with a soft, misty look) seems perfectly
suited to seascapes. (Rago mentions that Vellum vases were often
decorated with landscapes, while earlier glazes were more likely to be
floral.)
OTOH, Vellum is not the highest-value line of Rookwood. Rago -- who
runs one of the top specialty auction houses for American Art Pottery --
gives an estimate of $750 for a typical 8-inch floral vase (perfect
condition, hand-finished), as opposed to $2000 to $3000 for other lines.
Of course, your vase is larger, artist-signed, and a seascape, all of
which would increase its value well beyond this level.
GK
Gillam Kerley
>
> ... BUT oh no! .. the poster is told 'go away and buy a library of
> books' and the reason, some mindless assumption that he/she must be
> "well-heeled" because they post with an expensive piece of pottery,
Actually, my "mindless assumption" was that a vase of this caliber
merited something more than an sketchy four-sentence post to
rec.antiques. I don't care if they are rich or not; the value of the
vase alone justifies the "time and expense" of properly researching it.
> and therefore they should go out and buy books, and NOT ONCE (that I
> could see) did the poster even ask a question on the monetary worth.
So sue me for reading between the lines. (That question appeared in
their second post, so I wasn't far off, was I?)
GK
Ronnie McKinley
>Actually, my "mindless assumption" was that a vase of this caliber
>merited something more than an sketchy four-sentence post to
>rec.antiques.
Well, actually, (in the end), you appear to have come up with much
more than a "sketchy four-sentence post" in your latest offering to
the poster. A sort of .. 'on the road to Damascus' .. a sudden
enlightenment .. hallelujah brother. However, in essence, really not
that much more than Greg Blum submitted yesterday. In your case,
(and a day later) just a little more information/detail regarding
the artist (E.T. Hurley) which of course, Greg, at the time of his
posting wasn't aware which artist this may have been. Although now,
and rather puzzling, the "ocean scene" would appear to have been a
well known pattern all along. Mmmm.
> the value of the
>vase alone justifies the "time and expense" of properly researching it.
>
Yes, "properly" researching it, but not just flicking through some
Rookwood book and/or price guide, and then picking out the bit/s
that suite ones needs at the time. All I can say, America must be a
different world than it is over here. I could guarantee you, for the
price of a 3 minute BT phone call to ANYONE of the big four auction
houses in the UK would produce all the "appraisals" one would ever
need. That is of course assuming, an "appraisal" simply means a
monetary value, most times (the majority) in this ng an appraisal
means just that and that alone.
I still believe in your original post you were attempting to me the
smart-ass with a touch of sour grapes ... that of course is only my
personal opinion which for the moment, I am firmly sticking to.
Btw .. have you bought your scanner/digital camera yet? I for one
can't wait ;>;>
Bob Clark
"...the vase was found in the trash, believe it or not."
LOL! I have to believe it - it's all that keeps me mucking about in the
occasional dustbin myself.
Edw.Herley was one of the "master designers" for Rookwood, thus
entrusted with big projects - did landscapes extensively. Worked there
from turn of the century well into the forties!
The letter after the model # usually refers to the size - "A" being the
largest. (B=big 'un).
You might do a search under "Treadway Gallery" (include quote marks) &
explore their Rookwood Auction links - they've handled many of his works
(no photos, but excellent descriptions & bid ranges). Also punch in
"Cincinatti Art Gallery" for info on reference books (they are
definitive, not to mention beautiful, IMHO). Both also run world-class
auctions in the genre and, I suspect, would be very interested in a chat
if the vase is as described.
Stop back & let us know what results!
Michele Mauro
a sport for collectors.
Have fun! Michele
--
Change 'nospam' to 'chaos' to reply via email.
http://www.ao.net/~chaos - Home of NASCards Software!
-------------------------------------------------------
On a hot summer night,
Would you offer your throat
To the wolf with the red roses?
Ronnie McKinley <mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote in message
news:36fae33e...@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk...
>
> Occasional?? .. what do you mean "the occasional" .. we've got thing
> over here called skips, don't know what you guys call them, anyways,
> they place these skips at building sites outside on the street, or
> outside someone's house when refurbishing the home, all sorts of
> stuff is tipped into the skip as rubbish. I can't PASS these bloody
> things without having a look inside, try as I might, usually I try
> to avoid actually climbing into the thing, but "occasionally" I'm
> into it right up to me armpits, never found any fancy vases tho' ;>)
>
>
> >Edw.Herley was one of the "master designers" for Rookwood ......
>
>
> Excellent post Bob, practical, sound and knowledgable, this guy is
> sure getting his money's worth .. has anybody told him the cost yet?
pwr...@pacbell.net
Ronnie McKinley wrote:
> we've got thing
> over here called skips, don't know what you guys call them, anyways,
We call them dumpsters, and dumpster diving is a favorite pastime of many
(myself included). It's amazing the treasures that some people discard.
Rhiannon
Ronnie McKinley
>kwst wrote:
>
>"...the vase was found in the trash, believe it or not."
>
>LOL! I have to believe it - it's all that keeps me mucking about in the
>occasional dustbin myself.
Occasional?? .. what do you mean "the occasional" .. we've got thing
over here called skips, don't know what you guys call them, anyways,
jon.d2...@ukonline.co.uk
>
>
>Ronnie McKinley wrote:
>
>> we've got thing
>> over here called skips, don't know what you guys call them,
anyways,
>
many
>(myself included). It's amazing the treasures that some people
discard.
>Rhiannon
>
some twit was removing perfectly sound victorian floorboards from a
cottage nearby. They'll make a great table top.
BTW taking things out of a skip without the owners' permission in the
UK is actually a crime called "Theft by finding"
Jon
PS Why is there always a green Lloyd Loom chair in every skip ?
Please remove the DOGHSU before replying by email.
Ronnie McKinley
>On a hot summer night,
>Would you offer your throat
>To the wolf with the red roses?
>
Not bloody likely, you kinky or something?
Ronnie
=====
"can't stand big fat nameless overbearing "pop" singers"
==========================================
Ronnie McKinley
>PS Why is there always a green Lloyd Loom chair in every skip ?
>
Have you EVER bought a Lloyd Loom? All my Lloyd Looms come from
skips. Seriously taking about Lloyd Loom (and the look a likes)
hasn't the price of these things got out of all buying. Use to pay a
fiver, the silly bitches are asking 50-100 quid now, god those Homes
and Gardens glossy mags have a lot to answer for.
A2Gumbo
>buy an antique book), forget it. They have scaled back their selection
>and now have 3 out of the 5 bookcases formerly devoted to antiques,
>filled with Barbie and Beanie Baby Books, BUMMER.
>
>
>Carol
>
I've noticed the same thing at the Barnes and Noble here but thought this was
just a regional problem. What a shame. Fortunately, I have Chester County
Bookstore only 4 miles from my house and it still has many banks of shelves
devoted to antiques and collectibles. Very little you could possible look for
that isn't there. And if it isn't already there, they will order for you.
Between them and ordering through the mail from Collector Books, I'm kept quite
busy with my reading. And don't overlook the used book stores for books on
antiques. Its not like the information is going to be out of date! I
frequently find out of print books on antiques. Even found Sack's Book on
Good, Better, Best which defines the finer points of furniture and shows
pictures of a good piece of furnitue, a better piece and the best and explains
what makes the difference.
Ashley
American by birth.
Southern by the Grace of God.
kwst
Double D Auction
>BTW taking things out of a skip without the owners' permission in the
>UK is actually a crime called "Theft by finding"
Like too many of the laws, rules & regulations, that doesn't even make
sense.
I miss the local town dumps. Could always find some good stuff there.
Debbie
Double D Auction
shortly ahead of the trash truck. Amazing, the finds he gets.
Debbie
nancy dooley wrote:
>I believe here in the US, once it's out on the curb (kerb) or put out
>for trash collection, it's available to whoever wants it.
>
>Since we have to pay extra for the city trash trucks to remove big or
>bulky things on pick-up day, sometimes we just put them out on the
>curb and let the curb-shoppers have at it. More often than not, the
>item disappears. ;-)
Laurie Brown
>
> In rec.antiques, jon.d2...@ukonline.co.uk wrote:
>
> >PS Why is there always a green Lloyd Loom chair in every skip ?
> >
>
> Have you EVER bought a Lloyd Loom? All my Lloyd Looms come from
> skips. Seriously taking about Lloyd Loom (and the look a likes)
> hasn't the price of these things got out of all buying. Use to pay a
> fiver, the silly bitches are asking 50-100 quid now, god those Homes
> and Gardens glossy mags have a lot to answer for.
You say that... I remember, oh, 20 years ago, when you couldn't give the
stuff away at auction, then, a couple of years ago, it was around a oner
a piece, *if* you could find it. However, only last month I bought 3 LL
bedroom chairs at auction (one lot) for... a fiver!
Cheers, Laurie.
Ronnie McKinley
>You say that... I remember, oh, 20 years ago, when you couldn't give the
>stuff away at auction, then, a couple of years ago, it was around a oner
>a piece, *if* you could find it. However, only last month I bought 3 LL
>bedroom chairs at auction (one lot) for... a fiver!
>
Quite right Laurie, I can't actually recall what hyped the Lloyd
Loom up. I could be wrong, but something sticks in my mind about
Buck House flogging off all their Lloyd Looms which seemed to rocket
the price overnight. They rocket up so much and became instantly
"fashionable" that they stated to be manufactured again, in the old
traditional style, and if I recall right by a Gent somewhere in
England, that was related to the original manufacture and had some
of the old machinery still in his care. Do you recall any of this?
We do of course have to distinguish between a proper Lloyd Loom,
complete with original paper label and all, opposed to those god
awful light weight woven things (green, pink, buff and with gold
paint detail) that are so often sold as "Lloyd Loom" but of course
are not Lloyd Loom at all. Much the same as many of the shitty
bentwood "cafe" chairs being flogged as original Thonet, which
Thonet of course they are not, but they are still sold as Thonet
bentwoods ... by some folk :)
Laurie Brown
>
> In rec.antiques, Laurie Brown wrote:
>
> >You say that... I remember, oh, 20 years ago, when you couldn't give the
> >stuff away at auction, then, a couple of years ago, it was around a oner
> >a piece, *if* you could find it. However, only last month I bought 3 LL
> >bedroom chairs at auction (one lot) for... a fiver!
> >
>
> Quite right Laurie, I can't actually recall what hyped the Lloyd
> Loom up. I could be wrong, but something sticks in my mind about
> Buck House flogging off all their Lloyd Looms which seemed to rocket
> the price overnight. They rocket up so much and became instantly
> "fashionable" that they stated to be manufactured again, in the old
> traditional style, and if I recall right by a Gent somewhere in
> England, that was related to the original manufacture and had some
> of the old machinery still in his care. Do you recall any of this?
Yeah, I recall the re-making part, but not the cause of the price
rise... I remember answering some post in here yars ago form someone who
wanted to know how to strip the paint off :^)
>
> We do of course have to distinguish between a proper Lloyd Loom,
> complete with original paper label and all, opposed to those god
> awful light weight woven things (green, pink, buff and with gold
> paint detail) that are so often sold as "Lloyd Loom" but of course
> are not Lloyd Loom at all. Much the same as many of the shitty
> bentwood "cafe" chairs being flogged as original Thonet, which
> Thonet of course they are not, but they are still sold as Thonet
> bentwoods ... by some folk :)
Yep, correct on all counts. The "fakes" were almost as expensive as the
copies. The ones I bought had already been painted, so we re-painted and
put them in bedrooms.
Cheers, Laurie.
Leesa Freward
Wisconsin) unless you have a special permit. Although, as far as I
know the law is never actually enforced.
I've had great luck junk picking myself. Nothing as good as a Rookwood
vase, but good enough that I've learned to keep an eye out for houses
that look like they may be clearing out their storage areas. It's
amazing what people throw away.
Leesa
nancy dooley wrote:
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> >BTW taking things out of a skip without the owners' permission in the
> >UK is actually a crime called "Theft by finding"
> >
>
> I believe here in the US, once it's out on the curb (kerb) or put out
> for trash collection, it's available to whoever wants it.
>
> Since we have to pay extra for the city trash trucks to remove big or
> bulky things on pick-up day, sometimes we just put them out on the
> curb and let the curb-shoppers have at it. More often than not, the
> item disappears. ;-)
>
> N.
jon.d2...@ukonline.co.uk
>It's illegal to look through the trash in my city (Green Bay,
>Wisconsin) unless you have a special permit. Although, as far as I
>know the law is never actually enforced.
>I've had great luck junk picking myself. Nothing as good as a
Rookwood
>vase, but good enough that I've learned to keep an eye out for
houses
>that look like they may be clearing out their storage areas.
It's>amazing what people throw away.
>Leesa
>
>>>>>>If you go to the local authority organised rubbish tips in the
UK, you have to know the 'rules'. If you are there to chuck out real
rubbish, then fine. If you are there on the lookout for bargains DO
NOT try and retrieve them yourself. You have to find "Big Mike". I
don't knowhow Big Mike works in all the centres around the UK but he
does. You have to make friends with him by showing him a suitably
large wad of money and asking if there are any interesting bits he
could let you 'have'. If you get past this barrier he may take you to
his 'shop'. BasicallyBig Mike and pals gather all the goodies and hide
them away waiting for punters to come along. Some places are so
sophisticated that they even have repair areas for the electrical
goods! This scam is totally illegal, and of course not to be
encouraged 8) but you can get some good items very cheaply.
The only way to retrieve something and try and trick Big Mike, if you
are that brave, is to spot an item you want to retrieve in a skip,
thenthrow your rubbish on top of it. Then pretend that you didn't
really want to throw it away and go back and get the other item that
you reallywanted....yep...the old swap-eroony!
Jon
Please remove the RXAQLO before replying by email.
Bob Clark
"Some places are so sophisticated they even have a repair area for
electrical goods."
Puts me in mind of a dump trip some years back. Big Mike (the very same
- Denver edition) was eying the (salvagable) stove my buddy was
disposing - until we went Firesign Theater on it's ass with a
sledgehammer! I can still see the tears welling in his eyes.
"Think you can go three rounds with this water heater? Say it looks
easy (BAM), but sealed to the back of this metal mother (POW) is a
radar-activated seizing and stamping module (BANG) that'll keep you
punching (BIFF) until you're drunk (BOOM) with power (CLANG) - a man
like YOU!"
Greg Blum
kwst <kw...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
>--WebTV-Mail-1662730807-859
>Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
>
>Here is more info on the vase. I was mistaken in saying it was
>1901....it's from 1909....stands 18' tall....has a velleum
>glaze......has the number 907B on the bottom...is signed by Edward
>Thomas Herley.....and has an ocean scean wrapped arounds it.
>We are NOT rich people....the vase was found in the trash, beleive it or
>not....and is in excellent shape, with the exception of some crazing
>which I understand is normal for a vase of it's time. I tried looking up
>its value in a book to no avail. Thank you for any help that is given.
>
This is much more useful information.
Vellum glaze is good... it's one of the more popular glazes, though not the
best possible. This would need to be an iris or a sea green vase to be the
really big bucks. Historically, however, many people consider the vellum
glaze to be Rookwood's finest achievement. It's a transparent matte glaze
that allows the underglaze slip decoration technique that Rookwood was so
famous for in it's standard, iris, and sea green glaze lines, but was matte
rather than glossy, as was much more popular at the turn of the century with
the rise of the American Arts & Crafts movement.
Early vellum pieces almost always have crazing. Company documents on this
show that it happened at the time of making, but was not considered desirable
by the company. They worked a long time to make the glaze and the clay body
so compatible that there wasn't any crazing, but didn't really succeed until
around 1923. From that time on, almost all vellums are uncrazed. Before
that, very few do not have crazing. In general, an uncrazed pot is worth
more, all other things being equal.
E. T. Hurley is also a very good artist; there are only a handful that would
be better, and he's really one of the best for this type of scene. He was
with the pottery for a very long time (I don't have my books here to check
exact dates, but he was there at least until 1943 [I have a vase by him from
that year], and probably started around the turn of the century). You can
tell that the pottery thought highly of him just by the fact that you have an
18" vase by him..... really big pieces were expensive to make, so the generally
only let their best artists do them.
Hurley (the initials are for Edward Timothy I believe) also worked in other
mediums. He did a large number of etchings, mostly of the Cincinnati area,
which are still quite popular. He also did a lot of cast bronze work, with
a lot of it being based on a seahorse motif. The bronzes are quite expensive
these days, and have been faked.
A seascape is a very good subject matter. The so called "scenic vellum" was
a very common piece, but usually consisted of trees, mountains, and some
body of water... usually a lake or a river. There are a *lot* of these, and
the quality (and price) varies a lot. This type of decoration was introduced
in 1905, and was done all the way up to 1948 when the pottery quite employing
decorators in any meaningful sense. A true seascape is fairly uncommon, and
when well done very popular.
Sounds like you are okay on condition... but you really need to verify that
there are absolutely no chips, cracks, scratches, flaws (other than the
crazing which we already discussed), or repairs. Any of these would kill the
value, though it would certainly not make it worthless. Rookwood collectors
are *very* picky about condition, and the folks who buy these really large/
important pieces are the pickiest. The smallest bit of damage can lose you
up to 40% of the value. Look especially for a repaired drill hole on the
bottom..... a lot of these really large pieces were drilled for lamps at
some time in their life, and repairing them is pretty common, and not
alway easy to detect. Also make sure there is no wheel ground X on the
bottom - Rookwood's way of designating a factory second.
The only other thing that needs to be assessed is the quality of the art
work, and that's something that pretty much needs to be done "hands on."
A value? Can't really say.... let's just say that if everything's right
with the condition and it's up to Hurley's usual quality, it's a very
valuable piece.
In any event, it's worth a lot more than you paid for it :-)
charl...@my-dejanews.com
mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
> Much the same as many of the shitty
> bentwood "cafe" chairs being flogged as original Thonet, which
> Thonet of course they are not, but they are still sold as Thonet
> bentwoods ... by some folk :)
Must be an other-side-of-the-pond phenomenon, Ronnie. I've got three
genuine Thonet bentwood cafe chairs (with pressed wood seats) that I
picked up at an auction for a couple of bucks each some years ago, and
I can't get *anyone* interested in them. No way these are repros or
modern-day pseudo-Thonets. It just seems that no one here knows what
they are.
I use two of 'em in our computer room and one in the bedroom, having
given up on ever selling them.
Charleen
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