dating antique watercolor painting
JohnR
It is framed in a gold gilded thin wooden frame. The reflection off the
glass is very distorted. The paper has yellowed a bit and looks like it
would be brittle from age. It doesn't look too bad over all. There is no
signature on the piece unless it was overmatted. It does appear that
sometime later in its life, it had the matting replaced and foamcore backing
added to stop the deterioration.
The only clue to go by is the glass as long as it is original to the piece.
Sometime in the earlier 20th century, flat glass manufactures switched to a
method of drawing the glass vertically out of the furnace (Fourcault
method). Glass made this way had waviness oriented in one direction. The
glass in this picture is randomly wavy (cylinder method) suggesting mid
1800's up into the 1920s.
This is as about as far as I can take it. What else should I check that is
indicative of its age?
Thanks, John
Kris Baker
"JohnR" <nos...@att.net> wrote in message
news:DS9hd.813334$Gx4.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
You can't determine the art of the watercolor by judging the age of
the frame and/or glass. You already know it was reframed, so
there's no guarantee that this is the original frame.
If it's essential that you learn more about it, I'd have a conservator
look at it. You need to know if it's really crumbling, or artificially aged
and put into an old frame. If old, it may or may not have received
proper restoration in the past. If it's unframed and unmatted,
you can check for a signature.
Kris
Simon
The key to dating has to be the style of the painting and to some
extent the visiible types of paint (ignoring the fancy analysis done
by experts on really valuable pictures). If you can photo the picture
and post it to a web site with the URL given here, readers of this
group may be able to help.
Another guide when the picture is out of its frame is the nature and
watermarking of the paper (is it laid or wove and is there a date in
the watermark). This really applies to pictures over 100 years old.
Laid paper tends to be 18th century or earlier whilst the better
quality 19thC wove paper such as Whatman was often dated.
Simon
JohnR
"Simon" <vk...@HATESPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:q9cco0193i25ijijh...@4ax.com...
JohnR
I'll take some photos and post a link. The watermark is a good idea. I'll
try firing a strobe through the picture and see if I get anything. I'd hate
to take it apart. It is probably not worth that effort. I'd just like to
date it.
Thanks, John
"JohnR" <nos...@att.net> wrote in message
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Smorgass Bored
I'd hate to take it apart. It is probably not worth that effort. I'd
just like to date it.
(*<~ Then take it to dinner and a movie. If it enjoys that, perhaps a
trip to Disney World.
I'm still dating a wonderful old oil painting... imo NEXT,
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Kris Baker
"Smorgass Bored" <Smorga...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28204-418...@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net...
Sounds like John R's an honorable and upright man, always
honest with his dates.
I'd like to suggest something to both of you, though: why not
date new watercolors? You'd get all those kid discounts at
restaurants, movies, and Disney World.
Kris
JohnR
http://home.att.net/~jriegle/watercolor.htm
Thanks for any help. John
"Simon" <vk...@HATESPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:q9cco0193i25ijijh...@4ax.com...
JohnR
news:28204-418...@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net...
watercolors are going on ebay for 1$ in a frame, I doubt I'll be going to
Disney World any time soon...
John
Kris Baker
OK, John. You've passed the test ;)
As you can tell, we take any opportunity to show our adulthood
around here.
Have you been able to translate that watermark?
I see WINATNIA....WHATNIA....
Kris.
C.
find the words "Turkey Mill"
Go here http://www.princetonaudubon.com/about_the_watermark.htm
The Whatman watermark is closely associated with Audubon. The mill was
in Kent, England, and produced paper until 1976. With this info, you
can enjoy researching your painting a little more. FWIW, I think it is a
nice painting.
C.
"JohnR" <nos...@att.net> wrote in message
news:n%Whd.828965$Gx4.7...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
C.
website, and the history of the paper is there as well.
Sorry for the top posting.
C.
"C." <jcal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9tZhd.100879$nl.68015@pd7tw3no...
Simon
Having found that the paper is in fact Whatman, my previous point was
that much of their paper also has a watermark showing the year (eg
1844), so it might be worth looking at the rest of the picture if you
have not already done so. Such a year will show that the painting
cannot be older than that.
I can't claim to be at all expert on paintings but I would guess the
date to be in the 1920-30 period. I doubt that it is 19th century.
One opinion worth getting could be from a local public art gallery if
there is one near you. Curators are usually happy to give a view on
style or period and sometimes artist if you are lucky, but never a
valuation. Often they have allocated times for the public to bring in
items.
Simon
JohnR
news:6zXhd.19162$5b1....@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "JohnR" <nos...@att.net> wrote in message
> news:h5Xhd.828994$Gx4.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > "Smorgass Bored" <Smorga...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> > news:28204-418...@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net...
> > > John R sez:
> > > I'd hate to take it apart. It is probably not worth that effort. I'd
> > > just like to date it.
> > >
> > > (*<~ Then take it to dinner and a movie. If it enjoys that, perhaps
a
> > > trip to Disney World.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm still dating a wonderful old oil painting... imo NEXT,
> > >
> > > Doug
> > > ~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
> > >
> > Tell ya what. I'll date it if it is worth something. Since 19th century
> > watercolors are going on ebay for 1$ in a frame, I doubt I'll be going
to
> > Disney World any time soon...
> > John
>
> OK, John. You've passed the test ;)
Great! Sitting in the my darkened bathroom shining a flashlight through the
back of a picture frame looking for a water mark was enough of a date for
me!
> As you can tell, we take any opportunity to show our adulthood
> around here.
Well, as they say, if you you start acting old, you start feeling old. (or
something like that).
> Have you been able to translate that watermark?
> I see WINATNIA....WHATNIA....
Appears to be J Whatman
> Kris.
>
John
JohnR
with the flashlight and the watermark shown is all I could find. I'd have to
open the frame and hope there are ample boarders of paper so that perhaps
the date shows. I'm just not that curious to tear open the frame.
I agree that the picture is no newer than 1930. If the frame is original to
the art, the wavy glass matches the original wavy glass found in my
grandmothers home build circa 1900. From my research on glass manufacture,
most companies would have adopted the Fourcault process by the 1920s which
would cause an overall parallel ripple orientation to the glass and much
less distortion. Of course, the picture could have been inserted into an
older frame.
Thanks again, John
"Simon" <vk...@HATESPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v5lho05bv4cs7nabi...@4ax.com...
Marshall Schuon
>Hi, I took some shots and posted:
>http://home.att.net/~jriegle/watercolor.htm
>Thanks for any help. John
_______
Always a good idea to get your shots before dating and posting.
Marshall
Simon
The absence of a year may mean that the paper used was only part of a
mill sheet and the section with the year was the "other " part.
The frame would almost certainly have been made for the picture as it
is incredibly difficult to find a used frame of exactly the correct
size to match a random picture - try it. In this case it could be
remotely possible because the width of the matt (border) below the
picture is the same as the top and sides.
Framing convention is that the bottom section of the matt is deeper
than the top and sides - have a look at a few professionally framed
pictures where a matt is used. Not necessarily true for antique prints
with descriptive information at the bottom, though. The matt border
error is more likely to be due to lack of professionalism rather than
use of an old frame.
Simon