portrait miniatures
T/13
You know those portrait miniatures, usually of ladies,
usually on porcelain, oval shaped, like say 2 to 3 inches
long, those things?
Has anyone ever heard of them being done now in the old
style and sold as old? You would think on the one hand that
someone who could paint that well wouldn't bother. And on
the other hand there is a little Lovejoy in all of us.
The thing that made me wonder is that the subject is just
so damn beautiful. I wondered if it might not have been
painted by someone with modern sensibilities, modern
tastes and that that was the reason I found it so appealing.
I don't know how to tell if such a thing is really old.
It's paint and porcelain. Like, what's to tell? If it were
on ivory, you might have a chance of saying. But as 'tis....
Sorry for posting on topic. Will get back to the usual
singing and bullshit right away.
;)
T.
Cassie
This site is one of many showing the process is still going on. They aren't
being sold as old, but it is just one step from them to the person who will
try to pass them off as old.
Cassie
"T/13" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
news:uugK6.8131$vg1.6...@www.newsranger.com...
Ronnie McKinley
>Here's a question.
>You know those portrait miniatures, usually of ladies,
>usually on porcelain, oval shaped, like say 2 to 3 inches
>long, those things?
Like, KPM?
Ronnie
======
T/13
Thank you, Cassie. Very kind of you. I am glad to know that this is being done.
If there is ever anything I can do for you, please just let me know.
The subject in question is not so primitive though. Those Russian things seem
to be aiming for that.
So, R., well yes, kind of like KPM but the artists are not usually so good.
But sometimes to do approach that level. You see them at any good antiques show
in the states, usually go for like 300-400+ USD. Signed sometimes. I don't know
if there are any recognised artists in this field or not. Probably so. I have
never actually owned any of these things but I have seen a lot of them.
Ever notice how deucedly hard this stuff is to talk about, to actually find the
words to make sensible sentences? Perhaps there is a better name for this
category than portrait miniatures. I dunno. Wish I had a photo.
;)
T.
Ronnie McKinley
>Ever notice how deucedly hard this stuff is to talk about, to actually find the
>words to make sensible sentences? Perhaps there is a better name for this
>category than portrait miniatures. I dunno. Wish I had a photo.
Although none of these are oval or **do I think** as small as the size you
quoted .. ie "2-3 inches" ... is this the sort of thing?
http://www.windsorhouse.com/Paintings.html
At 2-3 inches I am picturing, porcelain inserts. Like one would find
inserted into furniture, clocks and the like.
btw ... are these porcelain painted portrait miniatures, painted unto
slightly convex porcelain, or flat-backed. Are they indeed painted? or
finely transferred, or even enamelled?
Anyways, buzz your eyes on this one .... die or what??!!!!??
..... a Worcester plaque in Limoges enamel style
http://www.davidbrower-antiques.com/oriental/bottplaqlg.jpg
Fake that one! ;>)
Ronnie
======
Phil Rowley
Limoges porcelain boxes or bone-china tiles etc.
www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mgraves
Phil
T/13
subject wise. And not transferred, the good ones aren't anyway.
Enameled. Hmm.. Could be.
But most of them I've seen are painted. Sometimes they'll come in
a case. You could travel with a picture of your sweetheart.
T.
T/13
No, they look like those things Cassie sent in.
http://www.miniature.ru/index24.htm
I suppose photography brought a rapid end to the
miniature portrait business.
And Phil, thanks for the site! Way cool.
T.
ReyneH
I just had a few miniatures given to me to sell. I have seen alot of these in
the states as well, but not sure what makes one worth more than the next. Here
are a few that I have....
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1913/96667-112.jpg
This one has a neat snake frame. Artist signed. I am assuming quality and
artist signature is what makes the difference in value for these, but that is
just my guess.
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1913/96667-111.jpg
On ivory, like the first, and artist signed. This one is a brooch.
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1913/96667-110.jpg
This one is also a brooch with an interesting frame. This however is on
porcelain, similar to a german porcelain plaque.
Reyne
Just Glass Auctions - http://www.JustGlass.com
Online Gallery - http://www.tias.com/RHA
Ronnie McKinley
>http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1913/96667-112.jpg
>
>This one has a neat snake frame. Artist signed. I am assuming quality and
>artist signature is what makes the difference in value for these, but that is
>just my guess.
>
Even if it bore my signature, Reyne? :) .... depends on the artist, a
signature alone may not mean anything!! unless you can attribute the
artist. Good unsigned ones well far out value a bad signed one.
>http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/1913/96667-110.jpg
>
>This one is also a brooch with an interesting frame. This however is on
>porcelain, similar to a german porcelain plaque.
This is what I originally had assumed T was on about. Like Berlin K.P.M
or one of the French or English factories that produced similar wares.
The first one look suspect to me. What is the ground in that one? The
second one (1913/96667-111.jpg) now that looks nice.
Ronnie
======
Ronnie McKinley
T, this is the smallest miniature I own. Watercolour on ivory, in a gilt
frame, monogrammed, but I've no idea who the artist was.
btw that's a normal AA size battery to give scale
http://www.glenbourne-antiques.fsnet.co.uk/min.jpg
Ronnie
=======
ReyneH
No no, I understand "who" the artist is would make the difference, not just the
fact its signed by someone. Much like any ole painting.
The first one with the 2 people is on ivory.
The second one, bust of the woman, is ivory also.
The third I believe (my guess) would be German as we see the same woman in
white robe with burgandy cape on so many Berlin and KPM plaques.
R
VolcanikAsh
referred to paintings that were done on copper or metal plates or discs that
were covered with enamel. Enamel is a glass like product that is melted and
then used to prime the metal surface. Sorta like enamel used in making
cloisonne items. Only instead of making the enamel into wire like "chambers"
into which more enameling was poured, the enamel is painted onto the metal as a
primer and then the painting was executed on top of that. This would explain
why it was strong enough to be carried around.
Ashley
"Use the talents that you possess for the woods would be silent indeed if no
birds sang but the best."
ReyneH
I believe the enamel in the wire casings would be called pliqajour
yes?
Ronnie McKinley
>I believe the enamel in the wire casings would be called pliqajour
>yes?
Plique-à-jour or Cloisonné. Except in the plique-à-jour technique the
strips of metal forming the cells are only temporarily attached ie: not
soldered - .to a metal base to which the enamel will not stick In
cloisonné they are soldered, to the surface of the metal object.
btw Ashley, the pigments (metallic oxide paints) used in the enamel
miniature process are NOT vitreous, because the pigments are not
vitreous enamels, this is not a true enamelling process
Ronnie
======
VolcanikAsh
>yes?
>
>
>Reyne
>Just Glass Auctions -
The difference in plique a jour and cloisonne is that plique a jour is
translucent and lets light show and the wires are removed after firing. And I
explained cloisonne incorrectly earlier. The wire forms are wire and the
enameling is poured into that. Sorry for the misinformation.
ReyneH
I never liked much cloisonne, however the plique-a-jour always looked like
finer quality. Why is that?
Reyne
Ronnie McKinley
>Ronnie,
>
>I never liked much cloisonne, however the plique-a-jour always looked like
>finer quality. Why is that?
>
Ah you're asking the wrong person, Reyne. I don't much care for either
process. All those cloisonné dragons, all those mixy confusion of
patterns running a riot and those dark and black grounds just isn't to
my taste. I much prefer simple pictorial painted enamelwork, as in those
painted enamel portrait miniatures, or as found on, snuff boxes, scent
flasks, or indeed any object with mounted enamel panels or inserts,
either with portraits or picturesque landscapes, or even just decorated
in a neoclassical style, you know, plain old boring Adam's swages and
bows :)
However, maybe plique-à-jour looks finer because of the use of the
translucent enamels and the fact that the cellular wire wall divisions
have been removed. Most of the cloisonné I am subjected to in my neck of
the woods is that gad awful later Chinese and Japanese ware, so I'm
probably just bias. I do see wonderful Russian enamel work illustrated
in books, but unfortunately I'm never much offered such objects in the
"real" world .... well not that I can afford anyway :)
Ronnie
======
ReyneH
I think you are right as to why I like the plique-a-jour better. The
transluscent colors I find more pleasing and to me, look more elegant than the
darker cloisonne wares. I too think of cheap Chinese cloisonne but have
probably never been exposed to the "good stuff".
What do you think about Pietra Dura. I have been reading some information on
the net, but I am having a rough go trying to determine the new from the old,
the desirable from the undesirable. None of it really does anything for me, but
I have a collection to move for a client and need to make sure I don't do the
wrong thing.
Ronnie McKinley
>What do you think about Pietra Dura. I have been reading some information on
>the net, but I am having a rough go trying to determine the new from the old,
>the desirable from the undesirable. None of it really does anything for me, but
>I have a collection to move for a client and need to make sure I don't do the
>wrong thing.
Wasn't there a question about commesso mosaic work in the ng not so long
ago?
I know that fine old commesso, hardstone (pietra dura) and micro-mosaic
can demand staggering high prices, certainly at the likes of Christie's
and Sotheby's.
If the mosaic work is contained (inlaid) into furniture or an insert to
say a box, then I would tend to date the furniture (or object) and up
the price quite because of the mosaic work :)
..... however, if it's just a hardstone or micro-mosaic on its own,
like a plaque or picture, then I wouldn't have the experience to date it
accurately, in such a case I probably would just call the Roadshow
people in :)
Saying that. I was at an auction awhile ago (local but fairly upmarket)
and they had about 10-12 micro-mosaic pieces, although offering them all
as, late 18th century, not one of them raised a bid above the reserves
(in fact, no-where NEAR the reserves) so all the pieces were passed,
much to the annoyance of the auctioneer and his big red face ;>)
The place was packed to the door with, private buyers, collectors,
dealers and even the-dogs-in-the-street (hard-core trade/runners).
A few ways to look at that result .... no one at the auction knew what
they were looking at ie: the worth ... they (the mosaic) were all dudes
.... or simply, nobody wanted them .... pretty yea, but .........
Ronnie
======
ReyneH
I queried not long ago if people could direct me to sites with information on
Pietra Dura, and I got some good links, most however discussed later 20th
century pieces - not what I believe I have here.
I do have micro mosaic pieces, and those I know enough about.
However, I can't determine what makes a Pietra piece desirable or not. I can
imagine the most the makeup of the piece - the more desirable. I have some that
are done in alabaster and some that are black (ebony?) some that are very
detailed (people and landscapes) and some that are simple 4 color birds or
flowers (snore)
I suppose since the Roadshow starts back up in June, I'll ask one of the
appraisers there if they can help me.
Thanks for the input!
Ronnie McKinley
>However, I can't determine what makes a Pietra piece desirable or not. I can
>imagine the most the makeup of the piece - the more desirable. I have some that
>are done in alabaster and some that are black (ebony?) some that are very
>detailed (people and landscapes) and some that are simple 4 color birds or
>flowers (snore)
I think you should consider the term first ... pietra dura means "hard
stone" ... so in mosaic, any of several kinds of hard stone used in
commesso mosaic work. The term pietra dura signifies the requisite
hardness and durability of the materials used in this work. Stones
hardness (Mohs scale) between feldspar and diamond.
The most commonly used hard stones were quartzes, chalcedonies, agates,
jaspers, granites, porphyries, and petrified woods, all are variable in
hue and together provide an almost limitless range of colour. Lapis
lazuli, a semihard stone of brilliant blue, was the only stone regularly
used in commesso work that does not fall into the pietra dura
classification. I believe the work carried out in pietra dura needs to
be highly illusionistic and of course Italian in origin.
I'm sure you knew all that already but it's worth mentioning that the
type of stones used are important. Your friends at the Roadshow will of
course provide much more detailed help. Best of luck, Reyne, hope you do
well and get a good commission fee on the deal.
Btw ... who is the English guy they use on the US Roadshow?
Ronnie
=====
T/13
>>I never liked much cloisonne, however the plique-a-jour always looked like
>>finer quality. Why is that?
>Ah you're asking the wrong person, Reyne. I don't much care for either
>process. All those cloisonné dragons, all those mixy confusion of
>patterns running a riot and those dark and black grounds just isn't to
>my taste. I much prefer simple pictorial painted enamelwork, as in those
>painted enamel portrait miniatures, or as found on, snuff boxes, scent
>flasks, or indeed any object with mounted enamel panels or inserts,
>either with portraits or picturesque landscapes, or even just decorated
>in a neoclassical style, you know, plain old boring Adam's swages and
>bows :)
>
>However, maybe plique-à-jour looks finer because of the use of the
>translucent enamels and the fact that the cellular wire wall divisions
>have been removed. Most of the cloisonné I am subjected to in my neck of
>the woods is that gad awful later Chinese and Japanese ware, so I'm
>probably just bias. I do see wonderful Russian enamel work illustrated
>in books, but unfortunately I'm never much offered such objects in the
>"real" world .... well not that I can afford anyway :)
>
>
>Ronnie
======
the big guns in the field. One of them is was a guy named
(lucky for me I did bring a couple of books on orientals,
I couldn't remember his name for squat)
Ando Jubei, Japan, Meiji period. I have seen a few of these.
Got into a big private collection of orientals once and there
were some in a shop I used to visit too.
You'd like them. They're great. Pricey too.
And nope, I don't know how wireless cloisonne is made.
T.
Let's see if I can't find something on the web-
http://www.kin-un-ken.co.jp/eng/02.html
stolen signature-
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Stephen F. Roberts
T/13
>>I never liked much cloisonne, however the plique-a-jour always looked like
>>finer quality. Why is that?
>Ah you're asking the wrong person, Reyne. I don't much care for either
>process. All those cloisonné dragons, all those mixy confusion of
>patterns running a riot and those dark and black grounds just isn't to
>my taste. I much prefer simple pictorial painted enamelwork, as in those
>painted enamel portrait miniatures, or as found on, snuff boxes, scent
>flasks, or indeed any object with mounted enamel panels or inserts,
>either with portraits or picturesque landscapes, or even just decorated
>in a neoclassical style, you know, plain old boring Adam's swages and
>bows :)
>
>However, maybe plique-à-jour looks finer because of the use of the
>translucent enamels and the fact that the cellular wire wall divisions
>have been removed. Most of the cloisonné I am subjected to in my neck of
>the woods is that gad awful later Chinese and Japanese ware, so I'm
>probably just bias. I do see wonderful Russian enamel work illustrated
>in books, but unfortunately I'm never much offered such objects in the
>"real" world .... well not that I can afford anyway :)
>
>
>Ronnie
======
ReyneH
Actually, I did not realize what type of stones used made a difference. I had
seen several varieties of stones used.
In these, they seem to be - well hell I just went to look at them again and
really don't know what the materials are used in these.
Some is mother of pearl but beyond that, they all seem to be some sort of stone
but...hmmm...maybe I will post a photo so you can see what I am trying to
describe (so horribly at that).
ReyneH
There are several actually.
If you are referring to the guy who does the porcelain and pottery appraisals,
he is Nicholas Dawes. Used to work for Christies, and now has gone on his own.
Also, one of the top US experts in Rene Lalique.
The blonde haired guy that does paintings is Alastair...ugh I am drawing a
blank on his last name. He used to work for Phillips NYC and then left to go on
his own, now is working with another auction house I believe in Philadelphia.
T/13
>>patterns running a riot and those dark and black grounds just isn't to
>>my taste
Just in case anyone out there in radioland doesn't have a frame of
referece, here's a piece of the black stuff described.
http://t13.freehomepage.com/cl3.JPG
All there is to
recommend this piece is, IMO, that it's got little pictures on it:
a hat, a broom, a bag of money, a crab etc. Not all are visible
in the photo.
It is no big deal.
I don't ususally mess with this stuff, hell, it usually has a damn
dent in it anyway, which hurts them BADLY, especially if they
are just ordinary no great shakes pieces like this.
But I liked the little pictures and it was cheap and it didn't have
a dent in it.
T.
Ronnie McKinley
>All those cloisonné dragons, all those mixy confusion of
>>>patterns running a riot and those dark and black grounds just isn't to
>>>my taste
>++++
>Just in case anyone out there in radioland doesn't have a frame of
>referece, here's a piece of the black stuff described.
>http://t13.freehomepage.com/cl3.JPG
Bingo!!!!!! :)))))))
Ronnie
======
Tina Sutherland
imagining some of these things having larger flat pieces of stone and some having
tiny chips inlaid? If so which is which? Am I way off base?
Tina - just listening in