Early Oil Painting- Need Help
LE PICKER
Have a small interesting early Oil Painting- approx.. 6 x 8 inches.
Portrait-some sort of nobility . Appears to be wearing jewels and Ermine
collar. Looks Turkish to me. Need info. on where I can get such a painting
cleaned (reasonably) and identify the painter. Would also like name of someone
familiar with clothing styles who might be able to date the wardrobe. Back is
signed (carved initials in a square) but I can't make it out. The wood it is
painted on is fairly thick (about 1/4 inch) and obviously hand hewn. The
signature seems to be carved into back in a small square bordered area. It is
in nice shape and very well done but is dark and does need cleaning. Evidence
of worm holes in back of wood but not in front or painted area.
Any assistance appreciated.
Le Picker (Dennis) :<)
jm...@phast.umass.edu
lepi...@aol.com (LE PICKER) wrote:
Have a small interesting early Oil Painting- approx.. 6 x 8 inches...is
in nice shape and very well done but is dark and does need cleaning.
Bring it to a good auction house as it is before you ruin it, if it is
valuable, as in "Important" cleaning it will only hurt it and make it
suspect.
John
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Ronnie McKinley
In rec.antiques jm...@phast.umass.edu wrote:
> Dennis (LE PICKER) wrote:
> Have a small interesting early Oil Painting- approx.. 6 x 8 inches...is
> in nice shape and very well done but is dark and does need cleaning.
>Bring it to a good auction house as it is before you ruin it, if it is
>valuable, as in "Important" cleaning it will only hurt it and make it
>suspect.
>
How would the cleaning of an oil painting "hurt" it and make it
"suspect" ?
....... IMO any good ("important") oil painting can only but benefit
from cleaning, re-lining if necessary and/or restoration, provided of
course, the work is carried out by a professional and knowledgable art
restoration expert. The only concern Dennis, or anyone else in the
same position should have, is to determine if the painting is worth
spending further money, 'on restoration' in the first place, if it is,
then the "cleaning and restoration" of the painting (any painting) is
very important, not just in the conservation sense but to the final
value. Museums and collectors around the world spend many millions of
pounds on the restoration of "important" (and not so important)
paintings. If they didn't, then it's possible the painting's condition
would further deteriorate. Besides all that, what is the point of a
piece of art that one can't even see, let alone fully appreciate?
Seek professional help is the keyword :>)
Ronnie
mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~mckinley/index.htm
==============================================
Cast a cold eye
On life, on death.
Horseman, pass by!
==============================================
jm...@phast.umass.edu
In article <354f5705...@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>#1/1,
mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
>
> In rec.antiques jm...@phast.umass.edu wrote:
>
> > Dennis (LE PICKER) wrote:
>
> > Have a small interesting early Oil Painting- approx.. 6 x 8 inches...is
> > in nice shape and very well done but is dark and does need cleaning.
>
> >Bring it to a good auction house as it is before you ruin it, if it is
> >valuable, as in "Important" cleaning it will only hurt it and make it
> >suspect.
> >
>
> How would the cleaning of an oil painting "hurt" it and make it
> "suspect" ?
>
>
>
> Ronnie
>
cautionary... If the picker "needs help" perhaps he would try some dreadful
homemade recipe rather than have it done by a qualified restoration
specialist. I suggested an auction since even museums want important paintings
"untouched" so that they can oversee the paintings proper restoration.
Smorgass Bored
I've recently started taking MY important oil paintings into the shower
with me to clean them and had wonderful results overall. You might want
to test them in the sink while you're washing dishes first though. I did
wash Elvis right off the felt in one picture,but the shower actually
enhanced the painting of Satan sitting on the toilet..... IMO
glad to be of help (as usual),
Doug W.
~>*) Big Fish EAT Little Fish (*<~
OXSHUNEER
>Seek professional help is the keyword :>)
Amen to that.
Especially if it's a real important work of art. Not only will the restoration
be done by proven methods but it will all be documented so there won't be any
question to the authenticity of the work once the restoration is completed.
David
David R. Ayers / New England Auctions of Brookfield
Vist our web site at http://members.aol.com/oxshuneer/index.html
Go here for the Rules & FAQ's of Rec.antiques:
http://lonestar.texas.net/~clough/rafaq.html
Cobble Creek
Smorgass Bored wrote:
Do you line the tub with foil and pour in lots of baking soda??? Your Elvis
particles were probably re-distributed onto Satan,
hence the improved image!
Jan
Bruce McCulley
Ronnie McKinley wrote:
> In rec.antiques jm...@phast.umass.edu wrote:
> >Bring it to a good auction house as it is before you ruin it, if it is
> >valuable, as in "Important" cleaning it will only hurt it and make it
> >suspect.
> >
>
> How would the cleaning of an oil painting "hurt" it and make it
> "suspect" ?
There is also the question of what materials and techniques are used,
the quality of the job, whether the professional expert is world-class
or still learning, etc.
As Ronnie went on to point out, museums spend large sums of money on
such work. But I disagree with Ronnie about "the only concern...is to
determine if the painting is worth spending further money,"
For me, the most important question is, for us mere mortal "pickers" is
it better to let the end purchaser choose the expert job of their choice
and budget, or to try to improve the item on our own budget? Also, if
the piece *is* worth spending further money on, we should be concerned
with how well-spent that money will be, I'm sure there are varying
degrees of skill and quality in restoration as in all things. (When I
was learning to drive racing cars my instructor taught "if you have a
ten-dollar head, buy a ten-dollar helmet" and I've taken that advice to
apply in most activities!)
For truly unique world-class items, I think the proper course of action
is to let the ultimate purchaser make their own choice (a/k/a "the
Golden Rule", and they've got the gold). For lesser works, perhaps we
can do better if we undertake to have the work done before sale, but
only if we can be sure we're going to get a job of quality commensurate
with the quality of the item. I'd say it's best in such a case to check
references carefully, perhaps several times over, and proceed with
caution - damage once done is harder and more expensive to remedy than
it is to avoid! I've heard many a sad tale of "restoration" that left
the owner less than satisfied... Caveat emptor!
--Brucem
> ....... IMO any good ("important") oil painting can only but benefit
> from cleaning, re-lining if necessary and/or restoration, provided of
> course, the work is carried out by a professional and knowledgable art
> restoration expert. The only concern Dennis, or anyone else in the
> same position should have, is to determine if the painting is worth
> spending further money, 'on restoration' in the first place, if it is,
> then the "cleaning and restoration" of the painting (any painting) is
> very important, not just in the conservation sense but to the final
> value. Museums and collectors around the world spend many millions of
> pounds on the restoration of "important" (and not so important)
> paintings. If they didn't, then it's possible the painting's condition
> would further deteriorate. Besides all that, what is the point of a
> piece of art that one can't even see, let alone fully appreciate?
>
> Seek professional help is the keyword :>)
>
Ronnie McKinley
In rec.antiques Dennis originally wrote:
>>: Need info. on where I can get such a painting
>>: cleaned (reasonably) and identify the painter.
In rec.antiques Bruce McCulley wrote:
> But I disagree with Ronnie about "the only concern...is to
>determine if the painting is worth spending further money,"
Bruce continued:
> .... is it better to let the end purchaser choose the expert job of their choice
>and budget, or to try to improve the item on our own budget?
Ronnie had previously said in respect to restoration:
>>: The only concern Dennis, or anyone else in the
>>: [ " ***** same position ***** "]
>>: should have, is to determine if the painting is worth
>>: spending further money, 'on restoration' in the first place,
Bruce went on:
> Also, if the piece *is* worth spending further money on, we should be concerned
>with how well-spent that money will be .......
Ronnie previously said
>>: ...... if it is, then the "cleaning and restoration" of the painting (any painting) is
>>: very important, not just in the conservation sense but to the final
>>: value
Bruce then said:
> ... I'm sure there are varying
>degrees of skill and quality in restoration as in all things.
Ronnie had previously advised:
>>: Seek professional help is the keyword
Just a word on "cleaning" .... whilst the "cleaning" of an oil
painting does require *some* amount of skill and know-how but more
importantly *patience*, to a **professional** expert art restorer
such work is bread and butter. If we are merely talking about removing
old dirty varnish, (which to me, appears the case in the post by
Dennis and the normal to be expected with aged fine art) this is a
daily occurrence for most restorers, and should present little
difficulty, the cost of such work IMO is most times very "affordable".
A dirty oil painting (with merit, financially or historically locally
or nationally ) will without doubt benefit from cleaning, which can
result in the painting having wider interest and appeal when offered
for sale, privately or via auction. Much in the same way, if Dennis
can identify the artist that too *may* increase the interest or appeal
and may EVEN increase the value.
When I have a painting "cleaned" which is intended for resale, that
work (and cost) is given the same considerations as a painting
"cleaned" for my own personal use/collection. If I, as a dealer, will
financially benefit from the cleaning job on a painting, then I will
have it cleaned, if I see no financially benefit to me, or see no
merit for doing so, then I'll let the next man worry about it.
But for a dealer to blindly submit a "dirty" painting to auction
without due consideration on merit and in estimating the cost of a
"cleaning" job is rather foolish and cheap, a 50-100 pound cleaning
job could be money well spent and return the dealer ten-fold, or be
the difference in the painting selling or not selling ;) or indeed may
result in the decision NOT to sell after-all, but to hang it on ones
own wall for personal enjoyment :)
Now Bruce, what precisely do you disagree with? :>)
ReyneH
Dennis
If its simply a matter of dirt - wetwipes (yup, baby butt rags) work wonders.
Use one, lightly wipe down the canvas - you are good to go.
Reyne
Just Glass Auctions
http://www.JustGlass.com
Ronnie McKinley
In rec.antiques ReyneH wrote:
>Dennis
>If its simply a matter of dirt - wetwipes (yup, baby butt rags) work wonders.
>Use one, lightly wipe down the canvas - you are good to go.
>
How will cleaning a painting with a baby-wipe remove dirty varnish?
.............. it will merely remove dirt sitting on the varnish
surface but will not remove the varnish itself and unless the varnish
is first removed, then *surely* the paint can NOT possibly be cleaned,
which is the whole purpose of the object in the first place. If the
painting is semi-devoid or completely devoid of varnish, excessive
moisture, and many detergents can run the risk of expanding the
canvass and softening the paint. If there's paint loss or cracking of
paint surface, moisture/detergent can work beneath paint and canvass
causing more damage. Further, as this is oil-on-panel EXTRA care is
needed when cleaning or one may start to remove paint itself,
especially if the panel was unprimed. As with all cleaning, a little
bit at a time, with careful patience is the key to success, the
proverbial bull in a chain shop is not the answer in art restoration.
As you say .. "work wonders".. or should that be .. one wonders? >>;
Lets hope you don't have an old master Dennis. ;)
Gillam Kerley
Smorgass Bored wrote:
>
> I've recently started taking MY important oil paintings into the shower
> with me to clean them and had wonderful results overall. You might want
> to test them in the sink while you're washing dishes first though. I did
> wash Elvis right off the felt in one picture,but the shower actually
> enhanced the painting of Satan sitting on the toilet..... IMO
I rarely repeat Ronnie's advice, but I'll make an exception here:
----BEGIN----
Ronnie McKinley wrote:
> Seek professional help is the keyword :>)
----END----
ROTFL as usual,
GK
ReyneH
Funny I thought you said you werent going to respond to my note. ahem..
I wrote..
>If its simply a matter of dirt - wetwipes (yup, baby butt rags) work
>wonders. Use one, lightly wipe down the canvas - you are good to go.
>>
>
YOU WROTE..
>How will cleaning a painting with a baby-wipe remove dirty varnish?
** From what I read in my above capture message, I said if its simply a matter
of dirt - I didnt get into all the garb you did about varnish, craclure etc etc
etc. I think you aren't give Dennis enough credit to know whether or not he
is talking heavy duty conservation needed or just to simply clean the top layer
of dirt.
You guys always have to go for the gusto don'tcha. No doubt, you will take
less than 10 min to swipe at this post as well.
>.............. it will merely remove dirt sitting on the varnish
>surface but will not remove the varnish itself and unless the varnish
>is first removed, then *surely* the paint can NOT possibly be cleaned,
>which is the whole purpose of the object in the first place. If the
>painting is semi-devoid or completely devoid of varnish, excessive
>moisture, and many detergents can run the risk of expanding the
>canvass and softening the paint. If there's paint loss or cracking of
>paint surface, moisture/detergent can work beneath paint and canvass
>causing more damage. Further, as this is oil-on-panel EXTRA care is
>needed when cleaning or one may start to remove paint itself,
>especially if the panel was unprimed. As with all cleaning, a little
>bit at a time, with careful patience is the key to success, the
>proverbial bull in a chain shop is not the answer in art restoration.
>
>As you say .. "work wonders".. or should that be .. one wonders?
Reyne Haines
Just Glass Auctions - http://www.JustGlass.com
Vintage Glass - http://members.aol.com/VintGlass/index.htm
Moderator, Art Glass Discussion Group - Ask me about it!
Ronnie McKinley
In rec.antiques ReyneH wrote:
>Funny I thought you said you werent going to respond to my note. ahem..
>
Second thoughts :) ..... as I said in my last email to you, Dennis is
not the only person that reads this rag, so if I can prevent just ONE
other person from wiping paintings with a baby wipe then that will be
a job worth doing. ;-)
To clean a painting properly, the old varnish must be first removed,
paint then cleaned and then re-varnished. Anything less is a con-job.
ReyneH
Slowing down to 18 min reply. To think I rated for fast slam...awwww
At any rate...I am sure Dennis knows what I am referring to. I am also sure he
knows how and where to get professional restoration if he decides the
investment in the painting is worth it. If they painting turns out to be no
one, and nothing but eye candy, I am sure the wetwipes will serve the purpose
instead of the more expensive route you suggest.
Not everyone wants to spend the money and time to have a painting stripped,
cleaned, revarnished before turning a profit, especially if its not a listed or
noted artist.
By the way - here is what you emailed me, not the smug remark you made below :
Afraid you sent this to me, obviously by mistake.
"I'll not comment on your advice (; just lets hope Dennis doesn't have
an old master"
Firegifts
On Wed, 6 May, 1998 mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk (Ronnie McKinley) wrote:
>In rec.antiques ReyneH wrote:
>>Funny I thought you said you werent going to respond to my note. ahem..
>
>Second thoughts :) ..... as I said in my last email to you, Dennis is
>not the only person that reads this rag, so if I can prevent just ONE
>other person from wiping paintings with a baby wipe then that will be
>a job worth doing. ;-)
>To clean a painting properly, the old varnish must be first removed,
>paint then cleaned and then re-varnished. Anything less is a con-job.
>Ronnie
Hi Ronnie-
Maybe they only work on butt-ugly paintings.
Charley Kehoe
Tonquish Creek
Fire...@aol.com
Ronnie McKinley
In rec.antiques ReyneH wrote:
>At any rate...I am sure Dennis knows what I am referring to. I am also sure he
>knows how and where to get professional restoration
Obviously .... that's why he posted in the first place .... isn't it?
>
>Not everyone wants to spend the money and time to have a painting stripped,
>cleaned, revarnished before turning a profit, especially if its not a listed or
>noted artist.
>
Have you actually bothered to read the rest of my post to this thread?
...... obviously not.