A New Age Collector's Philosophy (with tongue only slightly in cheek)
Sarah Wanamaker
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, John wrote:
<snip>
> She was, thank God, appropriately horrified and refused to sell. She
> believed, as I do, that ALL of these machines are precious and should be
> preserved, not made into bars. People here talk down cabinet models
> ENDLESSLY. Joe Blow Newbie is all pumped about his Victrola and his
> Caruso '78's (he's born in 1962 and thinks 1950's is old), and a dozen
> people (presumably born in 1935) have to chime in with, essentially-
> "Your machine is one of 1,900,456 made in 1928 and so is good only for
> firewood or lumber. Burn the records too." It makes me sick sometimes
> the condesending tone that is used sometimes.
But is it really condescending? It's very hard to attach that kind of
emotion to printed words, especially when "good only for firewood or
lumber" isn't said. At that point, whatever implication you place on a
reply stating that a machine is common is *your* interpretation, one of
countless possibilities.
I'm sure you have noticed posts in this group stating that such and such a
machine is common, but you will also see collectors telling the new person
to enjoy his purchase. Common or not, it *is* a piece of history, and
certainly not common when compared to a lot of other "collectibles",
Beanie Babies being one type that comes to mind.
> This advice as well recieved and followed by the general public, which
> acts as a lens of destruction on what is so casually called "not wanted-
> not important to collectors".
A very interesting phrase, "lens of destruction". It seems today that
virtually everyone (i.e., the general public) is a collector of
*something*, so each person will have their own set of values which will
vary enormously from those of the person who lives next door. Bill will
cherish his collection of old microphones while his wife wonders why he
collects such ugly things, and why he spends *so much* money on them.
Bill wonders what his wife sees in old china teapots, and thinks the hutch
could be put to much better use for *his* collection.
The "general public" may dictate prices and eventual rarity of
"collectibles", but any person is free to collect whatever they wish. I
know a person who collects nothing but boxy plastic radios from the 50s.
To me, they aren't interesting. To him, they are fascinating, and that is
all that matters. He also has the bonus that what he collects isn't
expensive, because so few radio collectors share his interest. Does that
devalue his collection, or him? Of course not! But if someone wants to
hold him in disdain because what he collects isn't valuable (and how many
people would actually collect if they didn't have books telling them how
much something is "worth"), well that's their loss.
> My father used to use our 1928 Victor
> stand up (painted Chinese red by my grandmother) to agitate the
> developer when he was processing film, and slosh chemicals all over the
> platter. My siblings used the one sided Caruso records as frisbees. So I
> do understand the contempt for "too common- too recent" history- all
> history ("History is bunk") that Americans practice. I expected more of
> you folks though.
Well, gee, I'm an American, and I collect (gasp!) transistor radios! Some
of my favorite units are less than 20 years old, too. I don't worry about
whether something is common or recent--I don't collect based upon those
factors. I'm interested in design. So, I think, are a lot of collectors.
Thanks for your views. Just remember, not all of us turn phonographs into
bars--we would view that with the same horror as you.
Sarah
GCHughes
Thank you for sharing your philosophy with us. I agree with many of your
points however; too many people think that every 78 rpm disc they have is
worth a fortune. Their eyes glaze over and they mutter "Early retirement"
over and over. How many times have you read postings for "Rare, valuable, old
records" that turn out to be practically worthless? I would prefer to know
the true value of these. It might keep a newbie from being taken. Some people
and some dealers think that everything over 20 yeas old is a valuable
collectible, they smugly over charge anyone foolish enough to buy from them.
These people should be set straight! Let the stuff haunt them, they will
eventually lower the price when they realize that the market does not support
their over inflated prices or they'll go out of business. This applies to
phonos, radios and records. Newbies need to know what's trash and what's
treasure, its part of building and improving your collection. Being nice and
telling them that the over inflated prices are correct isn't doing them any
favors and it skews the market for the rest of us. Sometimes the
"condescending tone" is well deserved. You should be insulted when asked to
pay $500 for a machine worth $75. Many dealers need to be taken down a few
pegs by the experts. " You wanna talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk."
On to the external horn machines. You are way off base. These earlier
machines are rarer and therefore more desirable. Taste is subjective. I
don't consider Edwardian interior decorating to be any standard to judge
phonograph and radio collecting by. Cabinet and console machines do take up
a lot of room, room many of us don't have. I have an Edison Diamond Disc
Queen Anne console, an Orthophonic Victorla, a Sparton radio/phono console and
a Clarion radio/console. The Edison and Victrola have been in storage for
over 10 years. As much as I would like to turn my apartment into a phonograph
museum, I do have to live here and space is at a premium. You cannot stop
time and you can't save every machine. Some machines are common or poor
quality, they would be a burden on your time and money. I have bought more
than my share of charity cases and they are seldom worth the time and money it
takes to get them up an running. I know of several bar conversions that were
restored to phonographs. Their is always going to be some moron who wants to
make a quick, easy buck destroying a console to make a bar or something
equally stupid. Be sure to tell them that you'd have bought it before it was
gutted, but really have no use for another "bastardized bar."
Collect what you like, the lower end stuff is a great way to get started
without taking a soaking financially. Try to think of yourself as ahead of
the curve, you have the eye and you know what you like. Trust your instincts,
but don't expect to make a killing.
John
I want to thank the founding members of this group and all the
contributors. I'm so content with the group exactly as it is, and am SO
glad the bad old days of no ads are gone. I mean, here in Vermont I can
scrounge maybe one '46-50 bakelite or wood table a week in summer
combing the one big flea market, one every 12 weeks in winter. I like
being able to buy, as well as talk about tech. I can't even TALK if I
have nothing to fix or collect !
I also have found the Grail of Radio/Phonograph Collecting, outlined
below. It outlines the one thing I DON'T like about this group today.
1) Avoid buying any external horn phonograph-
2) or any Catalin radio unless at a yard sale( can ANY plastic box be
worth thousands of dollars? Or 20,000 pounds in the case of the purple
marble Ecko?).
External horn machines are UGLY- that's why women with their superior
aesthtic sense created the market pressure to put the horn in a cabinet.
This was part of the evolution of technological aesthetics- when 1st
invented a device was clothed (1920's radio, 1890's phonographs) in
drab, clueless garb by the men who invented it and it was not a parlor
accessory. The horn was banished to the attic from the parlor by all
people of good taste. Men think pink goes with red and and make other
scientific but wrong aesthetic judgement calls. Now I have the feeling
they are the most common collectors of these quaint but ungainly
machines. Don't tell me it's a room issue ie cabinets are too big- how
many horn machines can you collect at $1500- a pop anyway, so you'll
have LOTS of room. Too much, or no money- for me anyway.
The people in this group, like most collectors, act as though they've
suspended quantum physics and are observing and participating in history
without affecting it's course. I heard about a redneck guy who tried to
buy the beautiful mahagony Brunswick from the woman I got it from. He
offered her $150- (I bought it for $200-) but then he told her, quote-
"Collectors don't want them internal horn machines. Now if it were a one
with a horn, or one them big Victrolas size ov a meatlocka- here tell
them Japs been boying them up big time by Jesum. I buy these an' cut'um
up to make baahs out ov'um- made quite a few. Usually throw the guts
out- kids play with 'um."
She was, thank God, appropriately horrified and refused to sell. She
believed, as I do, that ALL of these machines are precious and should be
preserved, not made into bars. People here talk down cabinet models
ENDLESSLY. Joe Blow Newbie is all pumped about his Victrola and his
Caruso '78's (he's born in 1962 and thinks 1950's is old), and a dozen
people (presumably born in 1935) have to chime in with, essentially-
"Your machine is one of 1,900,456 made in 1928 and so is good only for
firewood or lumber. Burn the records too." It makes me sick sometimes
the condesending tone that is used sometimes.
This advice as well recieved and followed by the general public, which
acts as a lens of destruction on what is so casually called "not wanted-
not important to collectors". My father used to use our 1928 Victor
stand up (painted Chinese red by my grandmother) to agitate the
developer when he was processing film, and slosh chemicals all over the
platter. My siblings used the one sided Caruso records as frisbees. So I
do understand the contempt for "too common- too recent" history- all
history ("History is bunk") that Americans practice. I expected more of
you folks though.
But I am most likely powerless to affect the march of "progress". In
the end, I think it's important for we clueless newbie collectors to
snatch up our Oriolas, Cecilians, and plebian Brunswicks from the men
who would make bars of them while we can. Also our postwar wooden
radios. Later, once all the other "too common" machines are destroyed,
you'll wake up one day and- darn if they're RARE !! How did THAT happen
?
I can still see the Emerson Patriot in the trash can where I threw it
because we were moving in 1977 or so. And I was told by experts plastic
radios weren't worth fixing, even unusual ones.
NEVER AGAIN !!!
SAVE THE CABINET PHONOGRAPHS !!!
Respectfully submitted,
John Hagman
Bill Harris
GCHughes wrote:
>
> Thank you for sharing your philosophy with us. I agree with many of your
> points however; too many people think that every 78 rpm disc they have is
> worth a fortune. Their eyes glaze over and they mutter "Early retirement"
> over and over. How many times have you read postings for "Rare, valuable, old
> records" that turn out to be practically worthless? I would prefer to know
> the true value of these. It might keep a newbie from being taken. Some people
> and some dealers think that everything over 20 yeas old is a valuable
> collectible, they smugly over charge anyone foolish enough to buy from them.
You can contibute a lot of this attitude to the proliferation of antique
malls
and so called "antique dealers" who think that any piece of junk they
drag
though the door of and place in their booth suddenly becomes a "rare and
valuable antique", radios certainly included.
--
*****************************************************************
* Bill Harris *
* Bill's Antique Radio Emporium - http://www.flash.net/~billhar *
* To e-mail, remove the second 'r' from my address. This was *
* added to discourage junk e-mail. *
*****************************************************************
Don Wall
Collect whatever interests you; if 5-tube plastic table radios are your
bag, fine, collect all you can. If you like large consoles, cool, we all
have our preferences, and none of us should be looking down noses at
anyone. After all, folks, some of your most prized radios are really
nothing more than old junk to someone other than a collector. And
there's nothing wrong with making a bar out of an old radio or phono
cabinet, if that's what you want to do. Granted, it's fun to collect old
radios, but we're not talking about the course of world history being
radically changed because some folks want to scrap old radios and use the
cabinets for stereo systems, or whatever. Sometimes it seems that the
newbies are the best collectors, since the ones who have been collecting
for some time tend to take themselves far too seriously. Collecting is
supposed to be fun, not something which has to be approached with the
attitude of a museum curator or an investment banker.
Don Wall
Don Wall
Vince Rhea wrote:
>
> Under that philosphy, the extinction of a species is just the natural order
> of things and nothing to worry about! Sorry, but turning a radio into a bar
> is still a terrible thing to do if it requires hacking and whacking on a
> piece of history or art..
Sorry, Vince, that just doesn't make sense. I might grant you history by
a long stretch, but art? No way! Radios were not created as art, but as
functional devices for reproducting sound, the 'artistic' aspect of the
design merely to make it more acceptable in the living room. The Mona
Lisa, on the other hand, was created as art, for art's sake. You can
admire these old sets all you want (and I do, as well), but the reality
is that they are just old outmoded devices saved from the scrap heap only
because someone took a fancy to them, for no logical reason. I restate
my position that we should enjoy our hobby, (and let others do the same,
even if theirs is creating new furniture items out of old radio
cabinets), and try to avoid thinking of ourselves as crusaders in a noble
cause, saving this 'valuable' history for future generations. There are
collectors of virtually everything, as a glance at the Schiffer
collector's book catalog or a stroll through an antique store will
attest, and surely you have looked at some odd item or other and said to
yourself "why would anyone want to collect something as dumb as that?"
If you like to think of 'hacking up' an old radio cabinet (many
woodworking craftsmen would differ with your choice of terms), as
sacrilege, by all means do so, but don't expect everyone else to share
your opinion, and try to avoid taking a holier-than-thou attitude and
preaching to others about their wanton destruction of history. I'm
playing devil's advocate a bit, here, because I don't like to see those
old cabinets recycled into something else, either, but it's none of my
business if the owner wants to turn it into a video tape cabinet with
neon lights in it. Unfortunately, we sometimes think of ourselves as the
custodians of history so long that we begin to believe it, forgetting
that no one has appointed us to the job!
Don Wall
Dave Gonshor
I don't think it's really a hollier-than-thou attitude. It's just an
expression of the sinking feeling we get when we see a radio gutted,
usually amateurishly, to make a bookcase, a bar or whatever. I can't
imagine anyone who really appreciates these old radios not feeling sick
when they see a hack job. And they are almost always hack jobs.
Are old radios art? You bet your sweet bippy they are!!!! Many fine
artists and designers created the vast array of pleasing images set
forth in old radios. One only has to breeze through one of the many
books which display radios strictly for their artistic qualities. That
is only but one facet of this hobby; appreciating the wonderfully
artistic qualities of many of these old sets. Another aspect is
preservation, which usually is not really important from a historical
perspective. Preservation is a personal gratification - one reason why
many of us get a great deal of satisfaction in restoration. For someone
who has committed a hack job, I can only feel sorry that they could not
see the whole picture of what makes a radio a thing of beauty.
Sentimentally, Dave
John
Don Wall wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, Vince, that just doesn't make sense. I might grant you history by
> a long stretch, but art? No way! Radios were not created as art, but as
> functional devices for reproducting sound, the 'artistic' aspect of the
> design merely to make it more acceptable in the living room. The Mona
> Lisa, on the other hand, was created as art, for art's sake.
A lot of art was created purely as an income producing product. All
paintings are obsolete- after all, they would've used a camera if they
had one. The art involved in industrial design in American products (of
the age when we still made products) was really a wasted investment by
the manufacturer that was a free aesthectic gift to the public. A radio
co. making beautiful products today would be taken over by corporate
raiders whose first action would be to fire the design dept. (also
research) to "cut fat". Modern products are so hard edged, masculine and
boring looking as a whole. The idea of restoring early VCR's doesn't
appeal at all.
The whole appeal of this hobby to me is having a bit of this history
near me, and to preserve a piece that's teetering on the edge of the
trash can.
> and try to avoid thinking of ourselves as crusaders in a noble
> cause, saving this 'valuable' history for future generations.
I find this quinessentially American. I suppose 'valuable" history is
what- military artifacts ? It seems to me you're saying historical value
doesn't rest in anything so pedestrian as a radio. You appear to be
saying REAL art, and REAL history is made and preserved by REAL artists
and historians who have degrees and studios and are recognized experts.
Van Gough died penniless, Mozart buried in a common grave. Their work
was only really appreciated many, many years after their death. Whose to
say the work of great and small industrial designers won't one day be as
easily praised and respected as you have dismissed them. I predicit
future generations will have a great interest, greater than ours, in the
history of the technologies that have come to dominate almost every
aspect of our lives.
I personally am disturbed by some the comments that have been made since
I started this thread. I'm amazed that people collect something like
this and believe it's really totally trivial. So many people I know are
always ripping out functional kitchens and dumping early Pentiums for
300 mgz models. But they get home at 9 pm from the job they need to pay
for the kitchen, so they only use the microwave. And the kids get MUCH
better action on their new DOOM III software. Never have so many done so
little with so much. I feel this collecting is a small brake on that
attitude and that process. I love the sound of some of my radios and
wonder what I really have over it from the many audio upgrades I've made
(besides maybe stereo).
That's America- always bigger, better, faster. And we're all so much
happier and satisified now, aren't we ?
John Hagman