Refinishing questions...
old radios
I'm doing my first refinishing job on a Zenith 5S127 tombstone and have
a few questions for you experts out there. So far I've repaired lost
veneer and reglued the loose stuff. I've stripped the entire cabinet,
used mineral spirits to de-activate the stripper and then applied a
50/50 mix of shellac and denatured alcohol as a sealer/filler. Finally
I've sanded the dried shellac coat with 220 sand paper. I know there
are many theories on finishing so there could be conflicting opinions
here, but I really need some advice on the next steps. Here are some
questions:
1.) After stripping, much of the original stain remains in the wood, but
now is very uneven from stripping/sanding. Q. To get the color
correct, should I use stain, or should I use spray toning lacquer (I
have Mohawk from AES) instead?? I'm afraid of getting it too dark. I
want it to look as original as possible.
2.) Many end-grain parts on this radio were originally black. Was this
simply layers of stain or lacquer, or was this actually black paint?
What is the recommended process to get these parts black again?
3.) Is there any way to get a dark ring from water damage out of the
veneer on the top? I've tried stripping and sanding, but it's still
deep into the wood.
Any other suggestions? I've got a local friend who's helping me with
advice, but I'm curious to hear other opinions. He's not refinished a
radio in many years and is unfamiliar with the toning lacquers available
now, so he suggested I go with stain. This is one of the most important
questions for me. I REALLY want this radio to turn out nice.
Thanks all you experts :)
Mark.
--
/*---------------------------*/
Mark Malin - Software Engineer
Cahn Instruments - 608.327.6782
m.m...@cahn.com
nes...@my-deja.com
m.m...@SPAMLESScahn.com wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm doing my first refinishing job on a Zenith 5S127 tombstone and
have
> a few questions for you experts out there. So far I've repaired lost
> veneer and reglued the loose stuff. I've stripped the entire cabinet,
> used mineral spirits to de-activate the stripper and then applied a
> 50/50 mix of shellac and denatured alcohol as a sealer/filler.
Finally
> I've sanded the dried shellac coat with 220 sand paper. I know there
> are many theories on finishing so there could be conflicting opinions
> here, but I really need some advice on the next steps. Here are some
> questions:
>
> 1.) After stripping, much of the original stain remains in the wood,
but
> now is very uneven from stripping/sanding. Q. To get the color
> correct, should I use stain, or should I use spray toning lacquer (I
> have Mohawk from AES) instead?? I'm afraid of getting it too dark. I
> want it to look as original as possible.
>
> 2.) Many end-grain parts on this radio were originally black. Was
this
> simply layers of stain or lacquer, or was this actually black paint?
> What is the recommended process to get these parts black again?
>
From all the ones I have done, this is a black or dark brown lacquer
paint usually done last.
> 3.) Is there any way to get a dark ring from water damage out of the
> veneer on the top? I've tried stripping and sanding, but it's still
> deep into the wood.
Bleaching is suppose to help here, but, again, all of mine have come
off with the finish, so I have no experience.
>
> Any other suggestions? I've got a local friend who's helping me with
> advice, but I'm curious to hear other opinions. He's not refinished a
> radio in many years and is unfamiliar with the toning lacquers
available
> now, so he suggested I go with stain.
I would suggest you use the toning lacquers since you can restrip if
you are not happy. Stain is not so easy to correct.
This is one of the most important
> questions for me. I REALLY want this radio to turn out nice.
>
Then get a not so important set to practice on! I did several junkers
before I tackled anything that was a keeper. The junkers turned out
amazingly well, so I had some confidence in tackling the good ones. I
often just do selective refinishing now (usually the water marked top)
to preserve the original as much as possible.
> Thanks all you experts :)
>
> Mark.
>
--
Neil S.
Vancouver, B.C.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
old radios
> this
> > simply layers of stain or lacquer, or was this actually black paint?
> > What is the recommended process to get these parts black again?
> >
> From all the ones I have done, this is a black or dark brown lacquer
> paint usually done last.
This is kind of a dumb question, but if done last, would you recommend
taping these areas off when applying the toning lacquer for the rest of the
radio, or just leaving them exposed since they'll get painted darker later?
> > questions for me. I REALLY want this radio to turn out nice.
> >
> Then get a not so important set to practice on! I did several junkers
> before I tackled anything that was a keeper. The junkers turned out
> amazingly well, so I had some confidence in tackling the good ones. I
> often just do selective refinishing now (usually the water marked top)
> to preserve the original as much as possible.
I have an old Spartan cabinet that I'm doing in parallel to experiment
with. I'm just going to toss the Spartan when I'm done because the cabinet
is in terrible condition, but I thought I can experiment with the techniques
before doing it on the Zenith.
I also only would do "selective" refinishing (I like original finishes), but
this cabinet was in such bad shape it was not possible to salvage the
finish. It looked like someone had slobbered shellac or something all over
the entire radio (dial glass included) and then left it in an attic to crack
and decompose for years. The knobs were so gunked up with melted finish
that you couldn't make out the "Z" in the middle of them. I ended up
stripping them and scrubbing with a toothbrush to get the Z to be seen.
It's entirely possible what whoever did the last "refinish job" had also
stained the cabinet. Mabye that's why when I stripped it, it still had such
a dark stain remaining.
Bill Meacham
>
> > > 2.) Many end-grain parts on this radio were originally black. Was
> > this
> > > simply layers of stain or lacquer, or was this actually black paint?
> > > What is the recommended process to get these parts black again?
> > >
> > From all the ones I have done, this is a black or dark brown lacquer
> > paint usually done last.
>
> This is kind of a dumb question, but if done last, would you recommend
> taping these areas off when applying the toning lacquer for the rest of the
> radio, or just leaving them exposed since they'll get painted darker later?
If you've decided to use spray toner all over, I would
recommend masking these areas if you're gonna use a brush to
paint them later...Brushing over the toned lacquer will make
a mess and you may find yourself using a product that
doesn't like being applied over the spray lacquer.
Also, see if you can find some of the lacquer-proof masking
tape...its usually green. The spray lacquer will easily
melt its way underneath the edges of plain ole masking tape
leaving a ugly, messy edge.
--
Bill Meacham
Vieques, PR
BH
of the set with the lighter tones I don't have to mask off the dark areas.
old radios wrote:
> > > 2.) Many end-grain parts on this radio were originally black. Was
> > this
> > > simply layers of stain or lacquer, or was this actually black paint?
> > > What is the recommended process to get these parts black again?
> > >
> > From all the ones I have done, this is a black or dark brown lacquer
> > paint usually done last.
>
> This is kind of a dumb question, but if done last, would you recommend
> taping these areas off when applying the toning lacquer for the rest of the
> radio, or just leaving them exposed since they'll get painted darker later?
***************************************************
* Bill Harris - Bill's Antique Radio Emporium *
* http://www.flash.net/~billhar *
* to email, remove the x in the id of the address *
***************************************************
Sylvain
old radios wrote:
>
> 3.) Is there any way to get a dark ring from water damage out of the
> veneer on the top? I've tried stripping and sanding, but it's still
> deep into the wood.
>
Yes there is. I use Behr wood cleaner and whitener used to
prepare wood patios.
I use a toothbrush to apply -be careful to plastic part or
finish if any- wait about
1 minutes then brush vigorously with the toothbrush, wait
another minute
then brush again. DON'T let the stuff dry.
Wash properly with water,
applied with the toothbrush again (don't want that veneer to
lift though) and let
dry for 2 days. Use a No 0000 steel wool to get the "white"
off, then finish...
If the stain is still there -but it shouldn't- do the whole
process again.
Works great, but as stated in another post, don't take my
word for it and practice
on a less valuable piece before. I've salvaged a badly
stained -read spotted- case
on my Stromberg 'cause the previous owner stripped (badly
done) it and left it
in a basement or something after.
As for the black "accent", I use black or burnt umber
artist's acrylic paint then lacquer or
toning lacquer over the whole case without masking. I guess
the best would be to use dark toning
lacquer for those area, but the result is the same except
for the work involved.
But again I don't pretend to be a "pro" in refinishing.
Hope it helps
Sylvain
made in Quebec
old radios
> As for the black "accent", I use black or burnt umber
> artist's acrylic paint then lacquer or
> toning lacquer over the whole case without masking. I guess
> the best would be to use dark toning
> lacquer for those area, but the result is the same except
> for the work involved.
So the acrylic won't be "lifted" by the lacquer going over it, then?? I
know it's important to be sure all different types of finish products
react properly with each other.
Thanks again,
Mark.
Phil Nelson
> In article <39858084...@cahn.com>,
> m.m...@SPAMLESScahn.com wrote:
> > 1.) After stripping, much of the original stain remains in the wood,
> but
> > now is very uneven from stripping/sanding. Q. To get the color
> > correct, should I use stain, or should I use spray toning lacquer (I
> > have Mohawk from AES) instead?? I'm afraid of getting it too dark. I
> > want it to look as original as possible.
> >
> I have not seen this with my stripper, so I have no comment.
This seems odd to me, too. Ordinarily, stripping will give you a quite even
appearance. Perhaps you didn't use enough stripper, or you sanded more in
some places than others. Keep in mind that some cabinets were made of
different types of wood, whose different grain and underlying color was
masked by the toning lacquer applied later. If you mean that different
pieces of the cabinet look different in color after stripping, that is
probably the reason.
> > 3.) Is there any way to get a dark ring from water damage out of the
> > veneer on the top? I've tried stripping and sanding, but it's still
> > deep into the wood.
> Bleaching is suppose to help here, but, again, all of mine have come
> off with the finish, so I have no experience.
I have used bleach to lighten a very dark cigarette burn that was left after
stripping and sanding. This lightened the dark area, although it also left
it somewhat more grey than brown in color. I used a wooden toothpick to
apply very small amounts of bleach, and worked slowly. Once the dark area
looked light enough, I finished the piece as usual. The lightened area
blended in well after I applied brown toning lacquer.
If you want to try this, I'd recommend re-stripping the top to remove your
coat of sealer.
> I would suggest you use the toning lacquers since you can restrip if
> you are not happy. Stain is not so easy to correct.
Toning lacquer is also MUCH faster. It dries in minutes. Oil-based stains
take more than a day to dry here in the Pacific NW.
Sylvain
Yes you must test reaction between 2 different products on a
scrap piece of wood -that's basic-
but I never had any problems with both products I'm using.
Sylvain
made in Quebec
P.S. I've had reaction between lacquer and "stain with
varnish" that resulted in a wrinkle finish.
Not a bad experience though because now I know how to
replicate an "old finish" ;-)
old radios
> > In article <39858084...@cahn.com>,
> > m.m...@SPAMLESScahn.com wrote:
> > > 1.) After stripping, much of the original stain remains in the wood,
> > but
> > > now is very uneven from stripping/sanding. Q. To get the color
> > > correct, should I use stain, or should I use spray toning lacquer (I
> > > have Mohawk from AES) instead?? I'm afraid of getting it too dark. I
> > > want it to look as original as possible.
> > >
> > I have not seen this with my stripper, so I have no comment.
>
> This seems odd to me, too. Ordinarily, stripping will give you a quite even
> appearance. Perhaps you didn't use enough stripper, or you sanded more in
> some places than others. Keep in mind that some cabinets were made of
> different types of wood, whose different grain and underlying color was
> masked by the toning lacquer applied later. If you mean that different
> pieces of the cabinet look different in color after stripping, that is
> probably the reason.
Maybe it was the sanding. I used 0000 steel wool doused in stripper after the
bulk of the finish had been removed to clean it off. It seemed like in some
patches the stain was uneven there (on single pieces of veneer). This being the
case, that there are patches on the veneer that are lighter, will the toning
lacquer even that out? I'll give this process a try on my test cabinet to be
sure, but unfortunately that one stripped really evenly!
Mark.
Eddie Brimer
>now is very uneven from stripping/sanding. Q. To get the color
>correct, should I use stain, or should I use spray toning lacquer (I
i would have stained it after stripping, before any other finish. to do the
darker areas such as the edge around a top ect. do it as they did it at the
factory originally. spray the dark toner where needed, then using a rag wet
with lacquer thinner, carefully wipe the toner from the areas that you dont
want it. no need to do all the masking etc. on most sets. if you need black,
then use black spray LACQUER. whether, clear, toned or a solid color, it is all
lacquer. they can be sprayed over each other. don't brush a coat over toner
though. it will make a mess. if you would like to see an example of the results
using this technique, go to my website, and look for the refinished truetone
under my collection. good luck.
Eddie Brimer
2480 S. Beersheba Rd.
Sharon SC, 29742
visit my web page "THIS OLD RADIO"
http://members.aol.com/EB062559/THISOLDRADIOINDEX.html
Gene Warner
>
>Hello,
>I'm doing my first refinishing job on a Zenith 5S127 tombstone and have
>veneer on the top? I've tried stripping and sanding, but it's still
>deep into the wood.
>>Mark.
>I've had a fair ammount of success using oxalic acid for getting out most of
the dark water ring type stains. If you try the commercial wood bleach
products you will need to most likely completely bleach the entire cabinet;
not a good idea! Oxalic acid, on the other hand, available in small quantities
at most welding suppliers when mixed to a paste with water and applied to the
stain with a cotton swab will get out most but not all of it.
Exposing the application to heat/sunlight seems to speed up and improve the
process.
Bruce Johnson's book The Weekend Refinisher is an excellent reference on all
aspects of woodwork restoration; I believe he also mentions the above removal
process.
Good Luck, Gene
Sylvain
Eddie Brimer wrote:
...<snip> and look for the refinished truetone
> under my collection. good luck.
>
The link doesn't work Eddie... all your other links are
/radios625/number.jpg this one is /tt106.
Sylvain
made in Quebec
P.S. How do you know the way they were doing it in those
time, do you have more info ?
Could be interesting to know the original process to
replicate the original finish.
Phil Nelson
news:3985AED8...@cahn.com...
> Maybe it was the sanding. I used 0000 steel wool doused in stripper after
the
> bulk of the finish had been removed to clean it off. It seemed like in
some
> patches the stain was uneven there (on single pieces of veneer). This
being the
> case, that there are patches on the veneer that are lighter, will the
toning
> lacquer even that out?
Sure, the toning lacquer will tend to even out the colors, but it depends on
how different the colors are to begin with. The more coats of toner you
apply, the darker everything gets. I guess you will have to decide as you
work what is the right compromise between concealing the varied colors and
making the cabinet too dark. Again, lacquer is a forgiving finish, so if you
don't like the results you can remove it any try again.
Eddie Brimer
>/radios625/number.jpg this one is /tt106.
I uploaded this from a different batch of pics. i don't know what the problem
is. i will look into it.
>P.S. How do you know the way they were doing it in those
>time, do you have more info ?
>Could be interesting to know the original process to
>replicate the original finish.
it's common knowledge, plus, they (furniture makers) still do it that way alot
of the time. can you imagine if they actually had to use masking tape and
paper? the cost would be enormous, plus it would be very labor intensive. the
factories always took the fastest and most economical way to give a presentable
finish.
see the below link for another example of this technique. the entire front
panel is one piece of veneer. i sprayed the outer darker area first. then,
using a rag dampened with lacquer over my fingers took off the toner that
didn't need to be there. you can use a rag over a putty knife to do exact work
or to get in corners.
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/EB062559/radios625/6.jpg
nes...@my-deja.com
m.m...@SPAMLESScahn.com wrote:
> > > 2.) Many end-grain parts on this radio were originally black. Was
> > this
> > > simply layers of stain or lacquer, or was this actually black
paint?
> > > What is the recommended process to get these parts black again?
> > >
> > From all the ones I have done, this is a black or dark brown lacquer
> > paint usually done last.
>
> This is kind of a dumb question, but if done last, would you recommend
> taping these areas off when applying the toning lacquer for the rest
of the
> radio, or just leaving them exposed since they'll get painted darker
later?
I just spray overall and then mask and spray the lacquer paint last.
That appears to be the way the factory did it as far as I can tell by
scraping through the original layers.
Indeed. I have not delt with any previously refinished cabinets, and
all the original finished ones have never been stained but have had
tinted lacquer for toning.
Hagstar
>
>
> This is kind of a dumb question, but if done last, would you recommend
> radio, or just leaving them exposed since they'll get painted darker later?
I find flat black spray paint, applied early on and then left exposed to
receive good coats of brown toning lacquer, makes a real appearing "edge
paint" treatment.
I highly recommend staining first to even out the color followed by
toning. Stain does seem to soak more into the lighter areas, whereas
toner will give too even a color coat if used alone. Stain alone will
look too flat, though.
John H.
Beach324
they absolutely needed it. I remove the original finish (I don't strip)
using the orange scented gel made for this purpose. It removes the finish
but leaves the original stain/toner intact. Next I wash down the cabinet
with pure turpentine to remove all traces of the orange gel. Then let the
cabinet dry for a day or so.
Next, if the cabinet needs a little stain I use a good quality stain and
wipe it on sparingly with a cotton cloth. Let it dry for a day or so.
Next, I brush on a very thin layer of amber shellac disolved in denatured
alcohol. This step I consider necessary to bring out the richness of the
wood grain throuh the layers of varnish that get applied last. I use a gel
varnish and wipe it on with a soft cotton cloth going with the wood grain.
After two coats I sand lightly with 00000 steel wool. Then two more coats
of varnish. Sand again with steel wool and then one final coat of varnish.
When the final coat has had a few days to cure I buff any shiny spots with
00000 steel wool VERY LIGHTLY just enough to remove the shine.
Finally, I polish using Brown Antique Paste wax.
That's they way I do it.
Larry
old radios <m.m...@cahn.com> wrote in message
news:39858084...@cahn.com...
> Hello,
> I'm doing my first refinishing job on a Zenith 5S127 tombstone and have
> a few questions for you experts out there. So far I've repaired lost
> veneer and reglued the loose stuff. I've stripped the entire cabinet,
> used mineral spirits to de-activate the stripper and then applied a
> 50/50 mix of shellac and denatured alcohol as a sealer/filler. Finally
> I've sanded the dried shellac coat with 220 sand paper. I know there
> are many theories on finishing so there could be conflicting opinions
> here, but I really need some advice on the next steps. Here are some
> questions:
>
> 1.) After stripping, much of the original stain remains in the wood, but
> now is very uneven from stripping/sanding. Q. To get the color
> correct, should I use stain, or should I use spray toning lacquer (I
> have Mohawk from AES) instead?? I'm afraid of getting it too dark. I
> want it to look as original as possible.
>
> 2.) Many end-grain parts on this radio were originally black. Was this
> simply layers of stain or lacquer, or was this actually black paint?
> What is the recommended process to get these parts black again?
>
> 3.) Is there any way to get a dark ring from water damage out of the
> veneer on the top? I've tried stripping and sanding, but it's still
> deep into the wood.
>
> Any other suggestions? I've got a local friend who's helping me with
> advice, but I'm curious to hear other opinions. He's not refinished a
> radio in many years and is unfamiliar with the toning lacquers available
> now, so he suggested I go with stain. This is one of the most important
> questions for me. I REALLY want this radio to turn out nice.
>
Hagstar
>
> I remove the original finish (I don't strip)
> using the orange scented gel made for this purpose. It removes the finish
> but leaves the original stain/toner intact.
Excuse me, but I use the orange gel called Citra-STRIP as well. If it
has duck as part of it's *name*, it's a duck. It's easier on the wood
than a boiling, saturated solution of lye, but it's still a stripper.
John H.
John H.