Can you "lighten" stain after it's on??
Old Radios
it, filled the grain and sanded it. I used a pre-stain treatment by
Min-wax which evens out the stain penetration to help make the color
even, but the sides have turned out too dark in my opinion. I want to
apply toning lacquer now, but am worried the radio is going to turn out
way too dark now. Is there anything I can do to lighten the stain
before I put on the toning lacquer, or am I stuck with this color??
Any advice is appreciated,
Mark.
.Bill
You could try a rag *very* wet with mineral spirits as a wash. If the
stain is well dry that might not be strong enough and the next try could
be lacquer thinner. You'll run the risk of messing up the grain filling
job, though.
Usually one of the other will do the trick. Allow plenty of drying time
afterwards before applying your toned lacquer.
-Bill
S-
> I'm working on this Zenith cabinet, refinishing it, and have stripped
> it, filled the grain and sanded it. I used a pre-stain treatment by
> Min-wax which evens out the stain penetration to help make the color
> even, but the sides have turned out too dark in my opinion.
Hopefully, that "Min-Wax pre-stain" is Shellac. If it is, use lacquer
thinner
(if your stain is oil based) or Methanol (if lacquer is water based) to
remove
the stain or lighten it.
I'm back to using Shellac everytime now, as I used to a while ago,
because of that and also because it creates a better "base" for the lacquer.
Syl
-40
Ken
darken again with stain.
William Sommerwerck
Old Radios
Unfortunately, it makes the stain go on dark. Very even, though, I must
say.
Mark.
Old Radios
William Sommerwerck
> "Stripper"?
Yup. It's a solvent, and it dissolves stain. Not "forcefully" or "powerfully,"
but it attacks it.
Engineer
news:cctrt9$80j$1...@news.doit.wisc.edu...
I refinished a Stewart Warner cabinet recently that had walnut sides
(but cheap packing case top and front - so I just painted that.)
I wanted an oil finish on the sides for which I used a 50/50 mix of
turpentine and boiled linseed oil (which I also use very successfully
on gunstocks and furniture.) However, I have two bottles of this
mix - one with about 10% mineral based rosewood stain and one without.
After all the sanding and steel woolling (down to 0000), I used the
wrong mix on the radio (the one with the stain) and it came out too
dark. Aaaargh! The solution was to rub it with a rag soaked in pure
turpentine - after a short while it came back to just the right
colour. Then I finished it with the straight 50/50 mix. Hope this
helps.
Cheers,
Roger
S-
> Yah. I used to use Shellac but thought I'd try this stuff.
> Unfortunately, it makes the stain go on dark. Very even, though, I must
> say.
> Mark.
Always try a new product on something else...And I'm not being smart here...
I would be tempted to think from what you say that this product actually
absorbs more stain than wood or shellac, thus leaving what looks
like a "darker" finish. If that is the case (this would explain the "even
coverage"
of the stain maybe by saturating the pre-stain coat...) maybe
using either a lighter shade of stains or "cutting" the stains ?
Syl
robert
Turpentine and boiled linseed oil either by itself or together
warrants a strong warning of care in use or storage, especially the
used rag storage. They love to spontaneously combust!! Written from
experience, believe it!!
John Goller, k9uwa
radio...@msn.com says...
>
>
>Turpentine and boiled linseed oil
PERSONAL OPINION... anyone that uses "STAIN" on any radio ... should be
Turpentined and boiled in linseed oil.....
I defy anyone to show me any documentation from any radio manufacturer of the
mid 30's and later that used any "STAIN" on the finishing of their radios!
Therefore.... why in hell would anyone want to use anything but a replacement
of the original stuff that the manufacturer used to begin with?...
Same goes for anyone that "Oils" a radio... they didn't do that either!
John k9uwa
S-
> I defy anyone to show me any documentation from any radio manufacturer of
the
> mid 30's and later that used any "STAIN" on the finishing of their radios!
I defy you to prove they NEVER used stain...[g]
Syl
-44
John Goller, k9uwa
>
>
>I defy you to prove they NEVER used stain...[g]
>
>Syl
>-44
>
>
cabinets that we have... more correctly Jean does that part.. not me..
anyway.. 1200 wooden radio cabinets in the last 15 years ... none of
them have ever gone out of here with any stain on them.. and they look
as close to original new as we can make them... all lacquers and toner
lacquers .... nothing else is used.
John k9uwa
Old Radios
wood projects. I think you're right about it absorbing the stain,
though. Incidentally, some mineral spirits did the trick :)
Regarding it evening out the stain, my last 5-s-127 turned out beautiful
with shellac, but the stain was kind of blotchy. I don't have that
radio anymore :( but I remember how frustrated I got trying to even it
out with toning lacuqer. I considered not doing any stain on this one,
but am glad I used it. The coloration is very even.
Thanks for the advice, though.
Mark.
Old Radios
I belive you're correct in that they didn't stain them. I met a guy
who's been refinishing them for the past 25 years, though, and follow
his procedure. It's turned out great (see some of my restorations at
"personalpages.tds.net/~jonarthr" When I strip the ones that need
refinishing, what happens is the old toning lacquer breaks down with the
stripper and ends up soaking into the grain. Then it leaves an uneven
blotchy coloration. I like to even it out with stain before toner.
Just my personal preference.
Mark.
John Goller, k9uwa
>
>
>Mark.
>
nice radios... I'll go put my nose in the corner with Jeff or whoever else
is there this week... I did manage to buy one of those Airline MovieDial
table radios in Lansing... its a battery version but I do have an AC
chassis here someplace for it!...
Sorry
John k9uwa
S-
> Well Syl ... my only answer to this is that after some 1200+ radio
> cabinets that we have... more correctly Jean does that part.. not me..
> anyway.. 1200 wooden radio cabinets in the last 15 years ... none of
> them have ever gone out of here with any stain on them.. and they look
> as close to original new as we can make them... all lacquers and toner
> lacquers .... nothing else is used.
>
> John k9uwa
I've read somewhere that high quality radio cabinets did have
stain to enhance the wood grain. Still have to confirm this,
actively looking for a valid source.
It would make sense for companies not to use stain.
It adds cost and precious time to deliver a finished product.
The thoughest part in cabinet restoration, when using only
toning lacquer is to match panels where they used really
mismatched wood color and grain without using a too
dark finish that it actually makes the grain disappear.
And the fact that no one knows what an original finish
really looked like when new. We all have to compose
with references (read well preserved original finish) that
are aged and most often than not, darken with age...
A great cabinet restoration is one that looks old but
well preserved. Which in a sense is wrong...Catch 22...;o)
Syl
Hagstar
>
>
>
> I defy anyone to show me any documentation from any radio manufacturer of the
> mid 30's and later that used any "STAIN"
IIRC EH Scott did, Zenith I think did too. I try to avoid stain on radio
cabinets, true. But toner was invented for use on cheaper furniture to
cover mismatched wood and speed production lines. A few quality cabinets
may have been stained as they were all matched hardwood and didn't need
it. The "linseed oil" fellow thought the Whitewood trim was "packing
crate wood", and stain doesn't color that hardly at all. SO, stain is a
poor choice on most old radios, but on ones with no Whitewood trim and
ones with water stains I do use Minwax without guilt. Quality stain (a
formulation more than fifty years old) does make nice wood look better
than toner. BUT most radio cabinets aren't all nice wood. THAT'S the
most important reason to use toner.
John H.
PS- Of course, I'm a Demoncrat and fiscal conservative i.e. a Hater of
Freedom, so it's no wonder, is it ?
S-
> Incidentally, some mineral spirits did the trick :)
Great !
Easy fix. Not always the case heh?
> Regarding it evening out the stain, my last 5-s-127 turned out beautiful
> with shellac, but the stain was kind of blotchy. I don't have that
> radio anymore :( but I remember how frustrated I got trying to even it
> out with toning lacuqer. I considered not doing any stain on this one,
> but am glad I used it. The coloration is very even.
Ok...Now you owe us some pictures !!!! 8o)
Syl
-46
Hagstar
>
> When I strip the ones that need
> refinishing, what happens is the old toning lacquer breaks down with the
> stripper and ends up soaking into the grain. Then it leaves an uneven
> blotchy coloration. I like to even it out with stain before toner.
Amen, brother, amen- this is one possible reason stain might be useful.
John H.
Hagstar
>
>
>
> A great cabinet restoration is one that looks old but
> well preserved.
Occasionally I will use satin lacquer for all of the coats on the radio,
instead of the two or so one normally uses just at the end.
Of course the satin lacquer comes out all hazing looking in such
thickness which would normally be terrible. But if you then rub out the
piece with rottenstone to a gloss, it looks like an old finish gone
cloudy with age that's been well cared for over the years.
John H.
Stewart Schooley
got this reply;
To your question, once a stain has cured (dried) attempting to lighter
it by applying solvent, whether mineral spirits/paint thinner (the same
thing), turpentine, or MEK (Methyl Ethyl Keytone, a lacquer thinner)
will have no effect. The binder used in most stains is a "reactive
finish" and is therefore not affected by the solvent used before it was
cured. If the stain is too dark it must be removed; you cannot "stain" a
dark color "lighter".
Stewart
Bill
> FWIW, I posted your question on the Wood Magazine Refinishing Forum and
> got this reply;
>
>
> To your question, once a stain has cured (dried) attempting to lighter
> it by applying solvent, whether mineral spirits/paint thinner (the same
> thing), turpentine, or MEK (Methyl Ethyl Keytone, a lacquer thinner)
> will have no effect. The binder used in most stains is a "reactive
> finish" and is therefore not affected by the solvent used before it was
> cured. If the stain is too dark it must be removed; you cannot "stain" a
> dark color "lighter".
>
> Stewart
Thats an interesting example of terminology at work. Most of us
less-than-professional wood hackers would be content removing some of
the stain to give a lightening effect as opposed to lightening the stain
color itself.
-Bill
William Sommerwerck
stain coming off on the rag. There's a practical limit to how much you can
remove, of course, but at least some of the stain comes off.
Old Radios
Old Radios
Thanks for the compliments. The movie dial was something else. What a
crazy idea! Marvel of engineering, too.
Mark.
S-
> can I wait until it's done?? I still can't get to the binaries site :(
Of course...;o)
Heh, got a question about the Philco 37-610.
In your restoration page, you state that you preserved the photofinish
by wet sanding the original lacquer finish (great results btw). My question
is; were you able to preserve much of the "toning" or did wet sanding
took off most of it?
I think it looks great and want to know if the "original" color was
preserved
during the process.
Syl
Bill
>
> Heh, got a question about the Philco 37-610.
>
> In your restoration page, you state that you preserved the photofinish
> by wet sanding the original lacquer finish (great results btw). My question
> is; were you able to preserve much of the "toning" or did wet sanding
> took off most of it?
Syl,
I had a 37-60 that someone had applied 'something' over the photofinish.
It really wasn't to difficult to rub off the new junk to get back to
the original.
I don't think they used any toning on top of the photofinish...did they?
-Bill M
Old Radios
> by wet sanding the original lacquer finish (great results btw). My question
> is; were you able to preserve much of the "toning" or did wet sanding
> took off most of it?
>
> I think it looks great and want to know if the "original" color was
> preserved
> during the process.
It was preserved. It sounds crazy, but what I did was try to sand
through only the clear lacquer. When I was done, the color seemed
pretty much like the original. It may have turned out a bit too shiny,
but I could have "roughed" it up a bit to make it less shiny looking.
It was a pretty scary process because I had to stop before I hit the
photograph! I used lots of water and very fine paper.
Mark.
S-
> Syl,
> I had a 37-60 that someone had applied 'something' over the photofinish.
> It really wasn't to difficult to rub off the new junk to get back to
> the original.
> I don't think they used any toning on top of the photofinish...did they?
>
> -Bill M
Oh, that makes sense...I'm kinda slow...
Mark, thanks for sharing. I have a nice 10s569 (I think it's the right model
No)
Zenith console to restore. The otiginal finish is "alligatorized", but I
want to
preserve the original finish as the whole front of the radio is photofinish.
It's
painted BTW, not paper. I think I'll give a shot to your technique, sounds
promising. I _really_ like the look of your Philco. I don't find it too
"shiny".
A friend of mine has a perfect original finish on a console and I brought
my GT-88 to shine his radio (well, show him what can be done...) and
it came back shining like a mirror! SO I know for a fact that old finishes
_were_ "piano lacquer" finish.
Syl
John Goller, k9uwa
>
>
>I have a nice 10s569 (I think it's the right model No)
>Zenith console to restore. The otiginal finish is "alligatorized", but I
>want to preserve the original finish as the whole front of the radio is
>photofinish.
>
Syl ... there is a product that will do what you need ... remove the
alligatoring ... It is a Behlens product..
http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/behqualarenu.htm
Qualarenu #1
A modern method of renovating an old cracked, or alligatored finish. Works
equally well on old varnish, lacquer, or shellac finishes. May be brushed,
sprayed, or padded on the old surface. Eliminates the need for restaining and
refilling with paste wood fillers. Made ready for use on most surfaces. At
times it may be necessary to add Special Solvent 710 to assist in the
amalgamation. Will not work on polyurethane, epoxy or polyester finishes.
Will not eliminate veneer checks or actual damage to the wood.
Description
Qualarenu #1, pint $16.99
works well .... sometimes on bad cases you have to treat the finish up to
three times.. never had one that was any worse than that.
John k9uwa
S-
> Syl ... there is a product that will do what you need ... remove the
> alligatoring ... It is a Behlens product..
>
> http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/behqualarenu.htm
>
> Qualarenu #1
OoOoh!
Many thanks for the tip John.
I hope to find that product around here. Sounds promising.
And anything that saves me time and gives results
is welcome.
Syl
John Goller, k9uwa
>
>
Behlens is now owned my Mohawk ... so maybe your local Hobby Shop?..
Wood working stores etc...
John k9uwa
Old Radios
or whatever) if you just use mineral spirits and #0000 steel wool (or
even a rag) you can bring it back to life. Another idea is to try this
Briwax using #0000 steel wool. I did that on my McMurdo Silver
Materpiece and I think the results were quite nice! Especially on areas
that were scaly. That said, let me qualify amazing (lest I start a
thread of flames again...). On a radio that had a really rough, dried
out finish, which I did NOT(!!) want to mess with the finish (cause it's
such an expensive piece), for a non-intrusive, non-destructive method,
the before and after was quite amazing. Perfectly revitalized the
finish? No. But enough so at a couple feet back it looked like a
million bucks.
Just my 2c