RealmWare 3D Solutions and the Future of RealmForge

[Dan Moorehead]

I want to take this chance to address shed some light of some of the exciting news for the  RealmForge team in reaching our goals of providing an easy to use solution for creating 3D games and simulations for .NET. As you may have noticed there have been no commits to RealmForge of late, also there have been some offline discussions a some ties to Suva Interactive.  I had described earlier our efforts in the ground-up redesign and development of our 3D solution, however I apologize that I was not able to elaborate further on the nature of this.  Our plans had not been solidified and we are still in a sensitive stage of negotiations, which has been drawn out longer the expected.

Several of the core members of the RealmForge development team - Najak (Brian Knox), (najak), Dannomite (Dan Maltes), and myself (Dan Moorehead) have been working together offline in establishing RealmWare 3D Solutions and designing a suite of visual development tools for RAGE/RF2 engine. Recently we have also entered into negotiations for a partnership with Suva Interactive to develop these tools for their Suva3D game engine for .NET.

We have begun development of a prototype of the framework that will be integrated into Suva3D for our Visual3D Architect .NET authoring environment for the rapid prototyping and component-based construction of 3D games, simulations, and architectural visualizations. What excites me most about this development is that it allows me to learn from my mistakes and draw from the experience of Dannomite and Najak to design a much more useful and manageable platform and toolset. By partnering with Suva Interactive, we are now able to concentrate on the visual tools of the Visual3D .NET platform and have the resources to make more rapid progress then we had with RealmForge.

Our plans for providing the community with a free 3D development solution for .NET have not changed, instead our method for reaching those goals has changed with this exciting opportunity to gain the resources and traction necessary to meet them. Like Suva3D, Visual3D Architect .NET will be freely available for non-profit use.  The pricing of the corporate full-source editions enables us to provide a powerful development solution for free use by anyone interested in getting into game development: whether students or projects like Might and Magic Tribute.

One of our chief goals is in establishing this toolset at universities and high schools for learning through game creation. This initiative has been progressing quite well with interest by University of Illinois and the Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy in establishing courses based around them. We have encountered much interest by others - ranging from educational consultants for Canada to elementary teachers - and much of my work of late has gone into writing various grant and course proposals and curriculum design.

As our focus has shifted to developing our tools for Suva3D, I officially retire from the responsibilities Leedgitar (Chris McGuirk) provided me for the management of Axiom. I attracted developers and reestablished communication concerning Axiom to keep the project afloat when Leedgitar left and now Borrillis (Michael Cummings) has already taken over the project management responsibilities and has done an excellent job with them.  We are interested in seeing Axiom succeed as is Suva Interactive, as any demonstration of the feasibility of .NET for the development of games and other real-time 3D applications is beneficial to us all. We would love to provide support for it with Visual3D Architect .NET in the future and are interested in remaining involved and assisting with the creation of 3D games for .NET.

--
Dan Moorehead
Sophomore in Business Administration: Entrepreneurship
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Visual3D Project Manager   (www.RealmWare3D.com )

Resume   (www.RealmWare3D.com/Resume.pdf)
Business Card   (www.RealmWare3D.com/BusinessCard.jpg )

[Terry L. Triplett]

In the immortal words of Spongebob Squarepants: "Well, good luck with
that".*

* in response to Plankton: "I'm busy planning to rule the world!"

[Serge Lobko-Lobanovsky aka arilou]

So RF in the form people know it can be considered dead? It's worth
mentioning that on the site, isn't it?

But guys, I do understand you. Nothing personal.

--
Best regards,
Serge mailto:serge.lo...@gmail.com

[Dan Moorehead]

I will be replacing www.RealmForge.com with www.RealmWare3D.com once the partnership is official.

--
Dan Moorehead
_____________________________________________

Sophomore in Business Administration: Entrepreneurship
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Project Manager and Software Architect
RealmForge GDK (http://realmforge.com)

Resume (http://realmware3d.com/Resume.pdf )
Business Card (http://realmware3d.com/BusinessCard.jpg)

[Serge Lobko-Lobanovsky aka arilou]

Dan,

Can you put some more effort into describing on what exactly will become with RF now ? Thanks!

 Serge                            mailto:serge.lo...@gmail.com

[Dan Moorehead]

Certainly.  We are no longer continuing the development of RealmForge as Suva3D will provide the game engine layer required for our Visual3D tools. Our concentration will therefore remain on the design and development tools instead of engine (though we will assist in Suva3D's development as well). RealmForge will therefore no longer be developed, but we are providing our tools and platform for free for non-profit usage to allow many who have taken an interest in RealmForge to be able to migrate to this platform and toolset, which will go far beyond what was available with RealmForge. Axiom remains unaffected, but RealmForge will close its doors for development.

[Terry L. Triplett]

I presume the current codebase and project assets will remain available
and free to use as per the OSS licensing? It would also be nice to
provide a path for adoption of the current project should interest exist
in continuing development?

Dan Moorehead wrote:

> Certainly. We are no longer continuing the development of RealmForge
> as Suva3D will provide the game engine layer required for our Visual3D
> tools. Our concentration will therefore remain on the design and
> development tools instead of engine (though we will assist in Suva3D's
> development as well). RealmForge will therefore no longer be
> developed, but we are providing our tools and platform for free for
> non-profit usage to allow many who have taken an interest in
> RealmForge to be able to migrate to this platform and toolset, which
> will go far beyond what was available with RealmForge. Axiom remains
> unaffected, but RealmForge will close its doors for development.
>

> On 2/16/06, *Serge Lobko-Lobanovsky aka arilou*

> <serge.lo...@gmail.com <mailto:serge.lo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Dan,
>
>
> Can you put some more effort into describing on what exactly will
> become with RF now ? Thanks!
>
>
> Thursday, February 16, 2006, 12:16:57 PM, you wrote:
>
>
>>
>
>
>
> I will be replacing www.RealmForge.com

> <http://www.RealmForge.com> with www.RealmWare3D.com
> <http://www.RealmWare3D.com> once the partnership is official.

>
>
>
> On 2/16/06, Serge Lobko-Lobanovsky aka
> arilou <serge.lo...@gmail.com

[Dan Moorehead]

I don't see any reason to take down the existing the codebase.

[Arakon]

Dan Moorehead wrote:
> Certainly. We are no longer continuing the development of RealmForge as
> Suva3D will provide the game engine layer required for our Visual3D tools.

I've been a casual user for a while, and have been waiting for
RealmForge to stablize
before putting too much time into it. I find this a little
dissapointing from that
perspective. I am happy for the team though - this is an exciting
opportunity for
everyone.

> Our concentration will therefore remain on the design and development tools
> instead of engine (though we will assist in Suva3D's development as well).
> RealmForge will therefore no longer be developed, but we are providing our
> tools and platform for free for non-profit usage to allow many who have
> taken an interest in RealmForge to be able to migrate to this platform and
> toolset, which will go far beyond what was available with RealmForge. Axiom
> remains unaffected, but RealmForge will close its doors for development.

So will the new design tools still support Axiom as a backend? I
imagine the tools
will no longer be open sourced in anyway, unless you are planning on
going dual license.
In the last releases the design tools had a huge amount of potential.

I'm sure the new product will be great, especially with the educational
angle. I've seen this
happen to other projects in the past though, and typically it is bad
for the existing community.
Don't get me wrong - I'm still glad for everyone involved in this, but
typically I've seen things
excel for the first few months before community support is dropped
completely, or limited
to a old / unsupported version.

I'm glad the currently release is still available, and under an OS
license.. atleast it can
be taken by the community if there is enough ambition. And I'm glad of
all of the work that's
been provided for free. I don't want to sound ungreatful at all - the
team all did great work.
Will there be a final snapshot of the current state? Even if it's not
completely finished?
It'd be nice not to lose all that was already there ..

Thanks, and good luck.

[Serge Lobko-Lobanovsky aka arilou]

Hello Dan,

How about the name, RealmForge ?

[Dan Moorehead]

The name RealmForge and its logo are not being used for the new product, the tools are Visual3D Architect .NET and the game engine is Suva3D.

[Serge Lobko-Lobanovsky aka arilou]

Hello Dan,

But do you want to continue keeping ownership of a kind of well-known brand which RealmForge is, 

or are you willing to give the whole project to the hands of sombody who will continue leading and mantaining it, as you've been doing?

[DapperDanH]

This is great news for the RF team. I look forward to your end
product. Suva has a fantastic engine. I also believe Axiom will
ultimately benefit from this as well.

Congratulations!!!

Dapper Dan

[Terry L. Triplett]

I was thinking of the name and such too. Should "RealmForge will close
its doors for development" be interpreted as "Current project
leaders/key developers will no longer be leading/developing the project"
or "RealmForge as an entity will cease to exist and continued
development of the current codebase must continue under a different
name/identity/location"? The former would be less confusing and
disruptive, certainly.

It might be helpful to grant a few folks admin status on the current
tigris and sourceforge sites so transitioning is easier. Then there's
the issue of the current domain name - if use of the RealmForge name is
ok, it would be a shame if the domain lapsed as with Axiom.

Note: I'm happy for your new opportunity - just trying to do the right
thing for current developers/users who have an interest in the current
incarnation of RF.

Dan Moorehead wrote:

> I don't see any reason to take down the existing the codebase.
>

> On 2/16/06, *Terry L. Triplett* <te...@triplett.org

> <mailto:te...@triplett.org> > wrote:
>
>
> I presume the current codebase and project assets will remain
> available
> and free to use as per the OSS licensing? It would also be nice to
> provide a path for adoption of the current project should interest
> exist
> in continuing development?
>
> Dan Moorehead wrote:
>
> > Certainly. We are no longer continuing the development of
> RealmForge
> > as Suva3D will provide the game engine layer required for our
> Visual3D
> > tools. Our concentration will therefore remain on the design and
> > development tools instead of engine (though we will assist in
> Suva3D's
> > development as well). RealmForge will therefore no longer be
> > developed, but we are providing our tools and platform for free for
> > non-profit usage to allow many who have taken an interest in
> > RealmForge to be able to migrate to this platform and toolset,
> which
> > will go far beyond what was available with RealmForge. Axiom remains
> > unaffected, but RealmForge will close its doors for development.
> >
> > On 2/16/06, *Serge Lobko-Lobanovsky aka arilou*
> > < serge.lo...@gmail.com <mailto:serge.lo...@gmail.com>

> <mailto:serge.lo...@gmail.com

> <mailto:serge.lo...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> >
> > Can you put some more effort into describing on what exactly
> will
> > become with RF now ? Thanks!
> >
> >
> > Thursday, February 16, 2006, 12:16:57 PM, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > I will be replacing www.RealmForge.com
> <http://www.RealmForge.com>
> > <http://www.RealmForge.com> with www.RealmWare3D.com
> <http://www.RealmWare3D.com>
> > < http://www.RealmWare3D.com> once the partnership is official.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/16/06, Serge Lobko-Lobanovsky aka
> > arilou <serge.lo...@gmail.com
> <mailto:serge.lo...@gmail.com>

> > <mailto:serge.lo...@gmail.com

> RealmForge GDK ( <http://realmware3d.com/Resume.pdf>http://realmforge.com)

[dannomite]

Thanks Dapper.  You seemed to have sniffed this out before others.  Give us your sources!!  haha, just kidding.  What tipped you off?  We obviously didn't want to be premature about any involvement with Suva.  We were very much in the evaluation stage for a while.  If all goes well, Suva3D will be a very solid commercial rendering and game/simulation engine.  We aim to help each other out, us with insight into the game and learning genres, including the integration and use of visual tools, and them with solid business prospects, contacts and 3D engine expertise.

 

Funny thing is the whole thing started out with xeonx calling them to blast them for dissing axiom and realmforge in their sales material.  Then it just blossomed into maybe we can help each other out.  We hope it becomes official soon.

 

*Obviously we cannot talk about any technical or contractual specifics, so please don't ask, thanks.

 

-dannomite

 

[Dan Moorehead]

I must say, that call to Suva was the most productive complaint/angry call I have every made =)

What was of value in RealmForge was its design and the foundation for the runtime visual design tools (the In-Game Editor).  This design has evolved into the Integrated Visual Design Environment (iVDE) for Visual3D. With Suva we are taking the best elements of RealmForge and RAGE's design and improving upon them in both functionality and simplicity.  I don't intend to take down the source, however RealmForge.com site will be redirecting to RealmWare3D.com as it is the next evolution of these tools, far superior to what is currently there. I would like for others to continue on with the use of Visual3D instead of having to maintain the first draft of this design, especially considering its size of over 100,000 lines. Suva Interactive has already made the decision to provide a free Community edition of their engine and we are doing the same with Visual3D.  Even after winning Suva won the Microsoft Connected Systems Developer competition and acquired big clients through referrals by Microsoft, they have not changed this commitment to provide free licenses.

 I don't see the reason to continue with an inferior product when so many improvements are being made and full-time work is being dedicated to the next evolution of them. I had written the vast majority of the code in RealmForge and will build upon my experience - failures and design successes alike - in Visual3D. It was difficult to obtain enough traction with open-source and know we have the opportunity to build better tools sooner. We have been considering providing support for Axiom later on as well, however or focus is on getting a usable product out before providing alternatives rendering choices. All three of us have loved our work in the open-source world and providing something that the community finds useful and would love to continue - in a far more organized and well-planned fashion - to assist with community editions of Visual3D.  Also, a significant portion of the tools an framework will exist as an open-source entity in the form of Najak's impressive Lu4net application framework and utilities library. We all share the common goal for demonstrating the effectiveness of .NET for developing games and other real-time 3D applications and I would love to move forward with the current developers interested in our earlier work and collaborate again with Axiom later on in the game.

We are even providing free commercial licenses to certain developers and projects hat have invested a lot of time into RealmForge so that we can continue this working relationship. I would love to see a wide adoption base of free users of the tools and have even convinced Suva Interactive to provide drastically reduced licenses for educational use of their award-winning platform. Our goal has been from the start to develop powerful and easy to use tools for rapidly creating games and simulations, this great opportunity to achieve that instead of facing the pitfalls of interest that open-source projects often encounter does not change these goals of ours. Also, what excites me the most is the chance to potentially work full-time with dannomite and najak: great guys with incredible talent!

--
Dan Moorehead
_____________________________________________

Sophomore in Business Administration: Entrepreneurship
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Project Manager and Software Architect
RealmForge GDK (http://realmforge.com)

[dannomite]

>Also, what excites me the most is the chance to potentially work full-time with dannomite and najak: great guys with incredible talent!

Crap, I hate it when I'm singled out, but thanks anyway.  There are plenty of talented devlopers in this gorup doing a great job with axiom and I take my hat off to you guys for keeping a special project moving forward and making it even better.  Especailly hats off to Borillis.  Outstanding.  Part of me wishes I could still participate. :-(

 

-dannomite
 

RealmForge GDK ( http://realmforge.com)

Resume (http://realmware3d.com/Resume.pdf )

[najak]

I've even got Xeonx doing my Lu4Net marketing for me now. With him
involved, it'll end up featured on the front page of some .NET software
development magazine.

I truly enjoy the LGPL environment, and have become accustomed to the
warmth and friendship of the open source community. It has been a
difficult transition to move towards a more commercialized approach. I
can't speak about the details of our contractual arrangements, but I
will say that I have the interests of the public, indies, and students
in mind for the platform to which I will contribute my efforts.

[Michael Cummings]

Congratulations to the three of you, and the best of luck with this venture.

Very bummed to see three resources being lost to these projects, however

it sounds like your on a roll.

 

Borrillis

 

[Dan Moorehead]

Thanks for your support everyone (and thanks for you incredible funny Spongebob encouragement Terry ;)  We may not be lost for ever, just taking a different route for development at the moment.  I would love nothing better then to work with Axiom again in the near future. We have found a way of moving forward with our learning through game creation initiative and will just be running with that for a while, however I think it will be greatly beneficial to Axiom as well as the bright young kids that want to get excited about art and CS. With such a pool of talent in Axiom, CEGUI# and all other related .NET gamedev projects, I am quite confident about your imminent success.

--
Dan Moorehead
_____________________________________________
Sophomore in Business Administration: Entrepreneurship
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Project Manager and Software Architect

RealmForge GDK (http://realmforge.com)

[Terry L. Triplett]

Dan Moorehead wrote:

> (and thanks for you incredible funny Spongebob encouragement Terry ;)

Funniest cartoon on TV when at the top of their game.

I just popped over to the RealmForge forums to see how folks were taking
the news. Seems they don't know yet. I wonder if the community at
large would be interested in your news? :-)

[Dan Moorehead]

I will inform them over the forums, the new website, and the RealmForge news releases from SF.net as soon as the news is official and the contract is signed.

On 2/17/06, Terry L. Triplett <te...@triplett.org> wrote:

Dan Moorehead wrote:

> (and thanks for you incredible funny Spongebob encouragement Terry ;)

Funniest cartoon on TV when at the top of their game.

I just popped over to the RealmForge forums to see how folks were taking

--
Dan Moorehead
_____________________________________________
Sophomore in Business Administration: Entrepreneurship
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign

Project Manager and Software Architect

Visual3D Architect .NET (www.RealmWare3D.com)

[Serinox]

Will axiom still be developed, and will it remain free? other than that
good luck with this venture and have fun doing it.

[Dan Moorehead]

Absolutely, Axiom is open-source 3D engine that is used by RealmForge, but not a part of it just as RealmForge was never solely dependent upon Axiom.  It is alive and thriving, thanks to Borrillis, Terry, Arilou, Dan, Don and all the other developers working on it. Btw, who are all the active developers at this point?

[arilou]

I believe it is Borrillis, me (arilou) and Terry. Although I am a bit
busy with everyday stuff at the moment

[DapperDanH]

DapperDan is still active as well. No commits lately but....anytime
now.

DapperDan

[Dan Moorehead]

Is there any interest (from someone without affiliations to a commercial toolset) in maintaining RealmForge on Tigris SVN and providing support to those having trouble using this LPGL library?  It is fairly early in development, at an alpha stage, so I would not expect so, but I intend to leave the source code on Tigris for archival purposes and maintain rights to the name RealmForge, for potential use as RealmForge2 in the Visual3D plugin for Axiom we are developing alongside Suva3D support.  Therefore, there will be a high-level game engine and toolset available for Axiom developers even though I am not continuing RF development, it was a fairly complex design and I am glad to be able to simplify my design in Visual3D.  It is important to point out that I am not in any way taking source code from RealmForge.  Though I had written at least 90% of its source code, I am not even using it as a reference for Visual3D, just acting on my vision for what I intended for RealmForge to become in terms of a toolset, and engine-independent framework and my design is far more refined then it had been when I started RF, and now is the collaborative effort of both dannomite and najak as well.  I am glad to have this chance to learn from my mistakes, collaborate, and push forward with a focus on getting usable tools out early and taking a more reliable test-driven approach.  The V3D prototype is progressing very well, and surprisingly quickly.  I look forward to being able to still collaborate with the Axiom, CEGUI communities including JWace, Rob, Arilou, Terry, Dan, and Borrillis since we are going to continue developing tools for Axiom and working with the Might and Magic Tribute team.

[Terry L. Triplett]

Well it's too late now, but I would have asked in the RF Forums and
posted an announcement on the RF site where the actual community is
before pulling the plug, rather than on this somewhat obscure mailing
list. Not the best way to maintain community good-will. But hey -
live and learn.