Chemical Storage

[Dean]

Here you go Ry!

http://readinghackspace.org.uk/wiki/Chemical_Storage

[Andy Hayward]

On 3 May 2012 21:36, Dean <dean....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here you go Ry!
>
> http://readinghackspace.org.uk/wiki/Chemical_Storage

Sigh.

I've got spare chipboard here; if someone can measure up the shelf
size I'll bring a new shelf or two down next week.

-- Andy

[Dean]

I think Paul's already bought one, I'm sure a second wouldn't hurt though.

[Ryan .]

HEHEHEH

i'm just glad no one was hurt... that seems like it could be pretty
nasty to get on your skin.

Thanks for sorting that paul, I'm out of town 'til monday-tuesdayish,
but I'll see it then :)

[Alex]

Ouch! (at least nothing other than shelves were harmed here).

A couple of questions:

1. what on earth was in the containers to go through a shelf like that?

2. can I nick at least one of the pics to put on the yoof/ravers site I help run as a cautionary warning as there is a contingent of folk there who are increasingly becoming interested in stuff like hackspaces and the like (I can keep quiet about exactly where it came from to protect the guilty if you so wish).

Alex

---

From: Andy Hayward <a...@buteo.org>
To: reading-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 3 May 2012, 21:43
Subject: Re: [RDG-Hack] Chemical Storage

[Ed Pinkney]

The bottle was labelled as 0.3 Molar HCl

[cynar blackmane]

The container contains HCl for PCB etching. It was, originally tripple bagged and tucked out the way. Unfortunately it got unpacked onto the normal shelves. I'm guessing someone fiddled with it, to cause it to leak, but that's only a guess.

Suffice to say, I'll have a proper chemical cupboard set up with proper tracking and precedure early next week.

I've no issue taking most of the blame, I had noted the potential issue, but hadn't gotten around to sorting it properly.

Paul

[Stuart Livings]

On 5/5/2012 12:28 AM, cynar blackmane wrote:
>
> The container contains HCl for PCB etching. It was, originally tripple
> bagged and tucked out the way. Unfortunately it got unpacked onto the
> normal shelves. I'm guessing someone fiddled with it, to cause it to
> leak, but that's only a guess.
>

I like using glass containers for HCl, they're strong and don't tend to
degrade or go weak and brittle like plastic containers. Obviously you
need to make sure they don't get dropped :)

Stuart

[cynar blackmane]

The container it's in is the original one it came in, so it should still be good.

Either way, hopefully I should have it all set up on Monday.

[cynar blackmane]

Just thought I would give people a quick update on what I'm setting up at the hackspace to resolve this. If anyone has any additional ideas/feedback, let me know.

I've already brought a metal cabinet for use as a chemical cupboard. I've also got a large plastic box, that should fit, for anytihng that might attack the metal. This should keep all spills contained with little/no damage. I'm also going to mark out areas in the cabinet for different sorts of chemicals. This should, hopefully, keep anything that might interact with each other apart.

Finally, I'm going to get up a sign in/ sing out sheet on the door. If you want anything from the cupboard, you need to sign it out and back in. That way, in the case of leaks, damage or improper storage, we know who to chat to about it.

It might seem a little OTT if your just after the cleaning supplies, but it keeps us covered when it comes to the more dangerous stuff. Particularly keeping it contained and where it cant injure someone.

Location wise, I believe the downstairs toilet is vented, if so, I'm planning on putting the cabinet in their. This will contain and vent any chemical smells or leaks safely. It will also limit how much smell gets into the hackspace proper. If anyone has and objections to this, or better ideas for locations, let me know.

I'm planning on picking up the cabinet tomorrow and running it over to the hackspace, hopefully I can get the whole lot set up in 1 hit. If anyone feels up for it, a proper chemical handling checklist on the wiki would also be useful, as well as a laminated copy on the cupboard door itself.

Paul

[Richard Ibbotson]

It's great to see a small accident result in lively debate and quick resolution.

 

I am strongly in favour of being able to store and use chemicals in the hackspace. It would even be good to have an etch tank already set up with pump, heater etc. Maybe we can attract some biohackers!

 

The cabinet, plastic trays, and proper bottles already described, seem to meet the standards for containment, and together with lables and safety information will meet the needs. Not sure about the signing in/out though.

 

I would vote against the downstairs toilet for location. It would be good to keep both the disabled loo and the kitchen completely free of all hack stuff. This will help to keep them clean and safe. I fear folk may mix and use chemicals in there too. How big is the cabinet ( thinking: wheelchairs if downstairs, and getting it upstairs)

 

Maybe one of the upstairs toilets is better, I assume they have ventilation too.

 

Do you want a hand tomorrow?

[Stuart Ward]

>
> Finally, I'm going to get up a sign in/ sing out sheet on the door. If you

sing a song of sixpence for some silver nitrate perhaps?

Stuart

[cynar blackmane]

Fair point on usage of the downstairs loo. I'll check if the upstairs is ventilated. My only worry if how far you have to go to get outside.

The cabinet is 45x90x180cm (dxwxh). So a good size, but not an unreasonable footprint.

As for the signing in and out. It's more to remind people that they are working with potentially dangerous chemicals and they have just taken responsibility for them. Maybe limit it to only a couple of shelves?

As for arrival times, I've no idea right now, I'll post here when I'm heading down though. If you want to come help your more than welcome. :)

Paul

[Alex]

cheers - did think it was something like that (shows how out of touch I've become as I was still using FeCl last time I was etching PCBs, probably high school now!)

Are you lot OK for me to borrow a couple of pics? not sure which one of you is the dude looking sllightly perturbed but if you don't mind that pic is good for the comedy value. its all in the interests of getting the younger lot interested in real hardware again without getting hurt..

Alex

---

From: Ed Pinkney <yen...@gmail.com>
To: reading-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 5 May 2012, 0:20

Subject: Re: [RDG-Hack] Chemical Storage

[Ryan]

It's me in the pic, what do you want to use it for again? :)

On May 5, 9:02 pm, Alex <alex...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> cheers - did think it was something like that (shows how out of touch I've become as I was still using FeCl last time I was etching PCBs, probably high school now!)
>
> Are you lot OK for me to borrow a couple of pics? not sure which one of you is the dude looking sllightly perturbed but if you don't mind that pic is good for the comedy value. its all in the interests of getting the younger lot interested in real hardware again without getting hurt..
>
> Alex
>
> ________________________________

>  From: Ed Pinkney <yenk...@gmail.com>

[Robert Thomas]

Do you have someone who has COSHH training? If not, I can take a look about. I'm on a tight deadline though, as I am off on holiday next w/e.

Rob.

[cynar blackmane]

Just to let people know, I couldn't pick up the cabinet today, evidently there is no one their till Wednesday. Nice of them to mention this BEFORE the auction!

[Matt Beddow]

I seem to have missed all the messages about this chemical storage issue you’re having so whats it all about?

Im about to graduate with a degree in chemical engineering and a major part of that is to do with plant and chemical safety so can probably answer 99% of questions you may have about storage etc.

Matt

 

From: reading-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:reading-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of cynar blackmane
Sent: 07 May 2012 17:55
To: reading-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RDG-Hack] Chemical Storage

 

Just to let people know, I couldn't pick up the cabinet today, evidently there is no one their till Wednesday. Nice of them to mention this BEFORE the auction!

[cynar blackmane]

We had a leak of Concentrated HCl at the space. The damage was limited, but it reminded us that we are working with hazardous equipment and materials. Since it was me who brought the HCL to the space (for PCB etching), and it was only luck that the situation was not a lot more serious, I thought it only fair I sort out storing them safely.

We need a formal system for dealing with hazardous materials. My opinion is that we make it a lot more strict than it needs to be, so even if it slackens off, things still remain safe.

Paul

[Matt Beddow]

Fair enough. Not a huge amount you can do about preventing leaking containers, other than keeping them somewhere, that in the event of a spillage, minimises the hazard.
The most common mistake ive seen, and thus my biggest warning, is to be careful of what you store in the same cupboard, namely, do NOT keep oxidising agents and flammable substances in the same place.

It might seem obvious, but the number of people that see the hazard labels both have flames on them and so think they can be kept together and then are surprised when they find their lab/house/factory etc burn out.

 

Just please make sure that you have a folder with the COSHH sheets for every chemical somewhere in the space that everyone has access to, along with any safety equipment and spillage clear up equipment suggested readily available and check that things are safe to be stored together.

 

As for sign in/out sheets, they are not strictly necessary but could be a good way of ensuring that things go back in the correct place and as a way of tracking the quantities available on site. I don’t suppose you have access to any chemicals that legally require records to be kept

[cynar blackmane]

The sign in/out idea was mostly to remind people that it's not vinegar and baking soda they are playing with.

COSHH sheets are a good point. A folder on the inside of the door might be the best place along with spare gloves etc on the top of the cabinet.

Storage wise. I was thinking plastic boxes, it keeps things separate, and it's easy to label the outside. If something goes back in the wrong place, check the signing sheet and have a word with the last user. Do you think this should be sufficient? I know were are currently not storing much in the way of dangerous stuff, but that could change in the future (without us really noticing), so it's better to plan ahead now.

[Matt Beddow]

Fair enough, Im not sure about putting the coshh sheets inside the cupboard, especially if its going to be a locked cupboard, these need to be accessible fairly rapidly in case of an incident.

Plastic trays are a nice idea for keeping things separate but glass would be better as it is more inert but practicality and cost will probably force your hand here a little (youre not a massive company with an endless budget after all)

Im not sure if ventilation has been mentioned already but any cupboard should have some sort of ventilation. It doesn’t need to be a fan or anything, just an opening at the top and bottom to prevent any vapour build up, also the room it is stored in may need some sort of ventilation, depending on the size and what you’re storing. Im guessing for PCB etching solutions and household cleaning products, plastic trays and a vented box will suffice.
Its when you start ordering specialist things, stuff not readily available over the counter and/or flammable/explosive materials that you need to start being serious about storage

[Richard Ibbotson]

The original HCL appears to be in a HDPE bottle and is still fully intact as far as I can see.

I understand the leakage was from the PET bottle containing etchant (primarily 3M HCL).

It appears PET is not a suitable container for strong HCL and the container show signs of crazing at the moulding stress lines at the base. It appears the leak from the bottle was slow.

I was amazed with the ability of the MDF shelf to absorb the leak and sacrifice itself with almost no damage elsewhere.

 

There is a lot of potentially dangerous stuff in the space besides chemicals. I hope we can continue to rely on the common sense of members, good communication, and best practice(external and learnt) to maintain a safe space without having to compromise our freedom to experiment.

 

I guess times have changed since I did my Chemistry degree 40 years ago. Then, if you had enough functioning organs remaining to complete the finals, you had passed the safety course.

Paul

 

[Stuart Livings]

On 5/7/2012 7:01 PM, cynar blackmane wrote:
> Storage wise. I was thinking plastic boxes, it keeps things separate,
> and it's easy to label the outside. If something goes back in the
> wrong place, check the signing sheet and have a word with the last
> user. Do you think this should be sufficient? I know were are
> currently not storing much in the way of dangerous stuff, but that
> could change in the future (without us really noticing), so it's
> better to plan ahead now.

Pyrex and ceramic cooking dishes are not expensive from places like the
dreaded Tesco. For the truly NastyStuff[tm] we could insist on one
container per dish and then if anything appears in the dish we replace
the container the NastyStuff[tm] is being contained in and clean the
dish to catch it next time.

Stuart

[cynar blackmane]

The picture is of Ryan. I've no issue with it being used. Check with Ryan though, I'm sure it will be fine, but just make sure he's happy with it.

I'm also going to do a full write up of the incident for the wiki, along with the new established procedures. That way people know, not only the what, but the why as well.

[Ryan .]

You guys rock :)

[Andy Hayward]

24 replies, and not a single reference to xenomorphs?

:)

[cynar blackmane]

Never heard of them.

[Matt Beddow]

Theyre crystals that didn’t for properly right?

 

From: reading-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:reading-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of cynar blackmane
Sent: 08 May 2012 10:27
To: reading-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RDG-Hack] Chemical Storage

 

Never heard of them.

[Richard Ibbotson]

That's a problem with Xenomorphs, you don't usually hear them coming!

 

On the Xenomorph topic, maybe we should paraphrase" Alien" for a title for Ryan's Photo.

"In the Hackspace no one can hear you scream"

 

From: reading-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:reading-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of cynar blackmane

Sent: 08 May 2012 10:27
To: reading-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [RDG-Hack] Chemical Storage

 

Never heard of them.

[Robert Thomas]

And I thought it was all to do with the throw-away comment about biohacking. Alien is so old school. Get with the e coli bug!

;)

Rob

btw, I agree that oxidisers and organics should not be in the same cabinet.

What is the current list of chemicals? I'm guessing:

HCL

H2O2

various solvents

possibly bleach

H2O2 and bleach should live alone. The others, if sequestered in plastic tubs, should be ok in the cupboard.

Rob.

p.s. I am on my "high horse" due to being fire officer and safety officer for a whole research floor at the ETHZ (Zurich) Chem labs for 3 years.

[Alex]

I help run a youth lifestyle website called Party Vibe (and have done so for about the last 10 years). it mostly revolves around the electronic dance music scene, and in recent years there have been a greater number of young people joining who have an interest in things like hackspaces, electronics etc.

it is at www.partyvibe.com

The site is high profile and some aspects of it are controversial (for instance taking a non-prohibitionist view on non problematic drugs use) - at one point we were being monitored by both domestic and foreign law enforcement agencies across the world though it no longer openly supports or advocates blatantly illegal activity and (rather bizzarely) even gets through in countries with strong religious regimes and conservative governments. In view of this I accept if Ryan may not want to be associated with it but it is an amusing picture as well as a valuable lesson.

Alex.

---

From: Ryan <ry.w...@gmail.com>
To: Reading Hackspace <reading-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 6 May 2012, 11:49
Subject: [RDG-Hack] Re: Chemical Storage

[Ryan .]

Yeah man, that's no problem (i'm not so distant from that sort of
thing myself, and as for my stance on drug prohibition, see me after
class lol)

[Richard Ibbotson]

Chemical cupboard is in the Gents Toilet.

I made a shelf, but it needs some metal brackets hacking to hold it up. Then chemicals can be stored.

Building and removal activities in Toilet can work around it.

On Sunday, May 6, 2012 9:40:01 AM UTC+1, cynar wrote: