Picolario with 2.4Ghz radios?

[John Hayes]

Just a quick question th the group or perhaps open up discussion.
 
Two of us up here in NH have both experienced loss of control when the Picolario is turned on and broadcasting. In my case about 5 seconds spiraling out of control which has happened twice with the Pic connected, No Pic, no problem. Has anyone else experienced a similar occurance and do you have any suggestions for avoiding the conflict, One system is Airtronics and the other JR/Spectrum. Both of us are experienced pilots.

John Hayes
I_S...@msn.com
If it goes up, it will come down!

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[TJB]

David Beech has my ham pic to try.  What frequency are the ones causing the problems?  I can see them possibly jamming certain resonant frequencies.

[Gord...@aol.com]

Okay guys, I am not a radio guy, but do have a few minutes of flying around the world with different systems.

 

Lets start with 2.4 systems have little antennas, so they are close to everything naughty in the model. I believe I have proved that a servo with a funky motor (commutator is burned or has arc'd between the plates) can cause radio problems from the noise, I know for sure it drives Pic's nuts...(the noise that happens when you move a surface and its picked up by the Pic.)

 

And there is the assumption that 2.4 is reliable.  I spent a lot of money on models trying to prove that to date.  In exchange for not having to claim a frequency, we have traded simplicity of installation.

 

But having said all that useless info, lets move on to the "Hey how about providing some real information" part of the story.  John said one of the systems was a Spectrum....what were the Flight Log numbers?...as in "Holds".  Then we'll have something to point to that is more than just it spiraled for 5 seconds....a hold that is extremely unlikely with any brand 2.4 system, 2.4 was partly made possible because of the recovery time of the chips now days.

 

The biggest hole in the story is that it was momentary, if the supposed jamming was constant while the Pic was transmitting, okay then we also have something.

The Spectrum's Flight Log, all of about $25 lets the pilot know for certain that it was or was not a loss of signal...Fades and Holds.  40 fades equals one hold...the hold only lasts for a few moments, I know I ran tests with a system set up to get up to 10 holds per 10min flight...so I know what they feel like...and I read them on the Flight Log.  The short coming of all other brands is that there is no data check, no tattle tale.  Now they might not need one if they just all work but its pretty clear that all the systems have crashed planes because of installs...not a thing that can be taken for granted.  Again the Flight Log helps because you can read your install reliability to about my guess 90% reliability.

So John here's the questions that need answering...(and yes I have run the pic in three separate kinds of airframes (Ava, Sharon, Constellation) and didn't show any Holds because of it.  This is the American version, not the earlier German Freq version.)

 

1 What did the Flight Log say

2 How do you explain that the supposed interference is selective?

3 German Freq or USA freq

4 You do realize that the 'hit' may have nothing to do with the Pic being in the model....Holds happen to 2.4.

 

Interesting thread....but very important to diagnose with data and information.  Just because the pic is in the models doesn't equal that pics bother 2.4s stuff. 

Gordy

[John Hayes]

Yes, David is the other flyer. I will have to check the frequency, I know I am tuned to Ch 14 on the FRS frequency, not sure but I think David is on ch 8. I was speculating that perhaps wrapping the Pic with Aluminum foil and allowing just the antenna out. Not sure if there is any stray RF from the board. Any thoughts? 

[John Hayes]

Ok,
 
Good discussion, I will try to answer what I can. About my installation, I have the Airtronics 8 ch 2.4 which has been solid since July, no issues with range. I installed the radio with one antenna going straight forward in a Escape fuselage to within 2" of the front radio compartment. The second antenna is pointing straight down at the front of the ballast tube where the retaing screw would secure the ballast. This Escape fuse is not normal, it has been modified so a wing can be bolted on (Aegea wing) top. The Picolario has been installed at the rear of the wing with the antenna going down the tail boom.
 
I set the Picolario up on a switch so it can be turned on or off from the radio. At the times I had interference I had it turned on, requesting battery voltage and altitude.
 
So,
1. David will have to answer the flight log since he has the Spectrum system.
2. This was the first time I installed the Pic in my 2.4 SD-10G Airtronics system, previously it was used on 72 with my Stylus. The problem comes and goes with the flick of a switch requesting the Pic information.
3. Will have to check on the frequency, I bought it a few years ago from Picolario USA.
4. So far I haven't experienced this problem without the picolario installed.

 
 

John Hayes
I_S...@msn.com
If it goes up, it will come down!


 

---

From: Gord...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:17:08 -0400

Subject: [RCSE] Re: Picolario with 2.4Ghz radios?

To: rc...@googlegroups.com

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.<BR

[Gord...@aol.com]

Good stuff John and I want to take back a statement about 2.4, to my knowledge there hasn't been a crash with a Airtronics 2.4 system, but then to be fair its extremely new to soaring compared to the Spectrum systems...in soaring.

One thing that gets my interest is that you have the antenna inside a carbon/kevlar matrix fuselage.  At least I believe that the Escape uses that kind of material.  The whiskers are supposed to be outside the fuse, that's the 31mm that is actually antenna. Even if it's a 2.4 friendly fuse, you still have wings, and servos and wiring that isn't 2.4 friendly...so a good idea to get those whiskers in the line of sight of the TX antenna.

 

The Pic may be blocking the signal, not the pic's transmission.

Gordy

[Hilaunch]

I have contributed a number of models to the research of 2.4 systems in model aircraft. I have also carried the Picolario in nearly all the models from HL to the SBXC. Holds are a known risk with any 2.4 system and the JR logger device helps with identifying them without sacrificing the model. Over the hundreds of flights during the last 2.5 years, I have never had a failure that could be attributed to the Picolario. That said, the Pic is a "lump" of metal that could block the signal under certain geometries. For the Pic to transmitt a harmonic freq that would interfere with the 2.4 signal seems highly unlikely. 

In the most extreme case the SBXC has been at 3000+ feet and a half mile away with the Pic transmitting continuously with no control problems. 

IMHO adding a piece of aluminum would only increase the size of the "lump" of metal that has the potential to block the 2.4 signal. 

Of course your milage may vary but antenna location is critical. 

Don Richmond
Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 12, 2009, at 4:07 PM, John Hayes <i_s...@msn.com> wrote:

Just a quick question th the group or perhaps open up discussion.
 
Two of us up here in NH have both experienced loss of control when the Picolario is turned on and broadcasting. In my case about 5 seconds spiraling out of control which has happened twice with the Pic connected, No Pic, no problem. Has anyone else experienced a similar occurance and do you have any suggestions for avoiding the conflict, One system is Airtronics and the other JR/Spectrum. Both of us are experienced pilots.

John Hayes

---

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.

=

[David Whitaker]

I have used a picolario for several years.  This year I switched to 2.4.  I have always used Airtronics.  I purchased an RD8000 2.4 since the 10 channel was not out yet.  I put the receiver in an Olympic II sailplane.  The first range check that I performed, I could only get five feet.  After much diagnosis, I pulled the pic out of the plane.  The range was now fine.  I checked this many times.  I inquired about this to many people.  I contacted Global service, Barry Kennedy, and Cody Remmington.  None knew of the problem.

After a time, I purchased an Airtronics 10 channel.  I tried the picolario with that receiver and everything has worked fine.  I have flown to 2000 feet with this set up.  I have concluded that the 8 Channel (which is FHSS-1) has different circuitry than the 10 channel (which is FHSS-3).  I don't know what the difference is but the pic works fine with FHSS-3 but not FHSS-1.  I only have Airtronics radios so I don't have any experience with other brands.

I have a friend that bought a 7 Channel Airtronics receiver, and the pic did not work with that receiver.  That receiver is FHSS-1.  This is my experience.  Hope it sheds a little light.

Dave Whitaker

[David Whitaker]

I guess I really meant to say that the 8 channel receiver would not work with the picolario.  The 10 channel receiver does work with the picolario.

Dave Whitaker

[David Whitaker]

The picolario that I am using I guess is the American version.  It uses the FSR walky talky frequencies. 

[Gord...@aol.com]

 

 

Okay just wondering, why didn't you guys call the suppliers and ask, instead of going for guesses? :
Gordy

[John Hayes]

Not really going for guesses, just looking to see if any of the fellow soaring pilots have had this issue and what they may have done to get around it. Yes I will talk to the suppliers, but first I need to gather more info on my side. I will do more "safe" testing in low power transmitting mode to find a best situation for the Rx antennas and Picolario. 

 

John

From: Gord...@aol.com

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 11:42 PM

To: RC...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [RCSE] Re: Picolario with 2.4Ghz radios?

[TJB]

Is your pic ham or FRS?

----- Original Message -----

From: Hilaunch

To: rc...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 10:07 PM

Subject: [RCSE] Re: Picolario with 2.4Ghz radios?

[John Hayes]

It is FRS

[Jim Gmail]

Because they've gotten used to the fact that calling tech support is generally a waste of time. Users of a product invariably know more about it than the suppliers, and forums like this where users are discussing is always the best place to find answers.

Take it from someone with 20 years in the software business... ;-)

Sent from my iPhone

[Jim Gmail]

I should add that you will get useful answers to support questions if you can get through to an engineer who worked on the product. But that is rarely the case.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 12, 2009, at 20:42, Gord...@aol.com wrote:

[Tom Kallevang]

I have used both Euro and USA FRS Pics in a range of models from a 2M Rogue, Soprano, AvA, Icon, Astro-Jeff, Challenger and 6.6 Meter Scale Nimbus without any adverse effects.   The Pic was tuned to Ch10.  I don't recall which Euro-channel I used at the different times.   I have solid 2.4 installs in each aircraft first, then the Pic was added where the antenna was as far as possible from any of the 2.4 whiskers and range checked with and without the Pic transmitting AND announcing (interrogating).   There was no effect to the range tests by the Pic.  I used the logger in the range checks as well.   When you have a problem, does the receiver take longer than normal to synch up if the Pic is already turned on?  It's possible the receiver is seeing the Pic transmission as noise and will take longer to connect ... similar to trying to connect in an enclosed space like a van or on a metal picnic bench.   I'm no engineer, just careful.    I would expect in an XC ship, you can get a lot of separation between primary and satellite receivers (if you use JR) and the Picolario transmitter.  Not so easy in a Pike.  You can only fit so much in some of these designs, if it's ultimately a "swamping" issue you may have to give up the Pic and rely on your eyes :)    YMMV.   tk

[Jack Strother]

Use my eyes ???
what bladerdash and skulldougery!


Jack Strother
Granger, IN
Lsf Level V
CSS Gold

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Kallevang <tka...@yahoo.com>
To: rc...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 03:23:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [RCSE] Re: Picolario with 2.4Ghz radios?

[AJ Bhatta]

That's it flung what you brung and use those peepers. Except don't use both hands to fling it!! LOL
AJ

--- On Wed, 10/14/09, Jack Strother <strot...@comcast.net> wrote:

[David Whitaker]

TK,

Have you used the Airtronics 2.4 radios.  The RDS8000 8 channel receiver and/or the SD10-G 10 channel receiver?

Dave W

[rm...@embarqmail.com]

He hasn't Dave, all JR 2.4.

Marc

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

---

From: David Whitaker <dwhi...@bex.net>

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 12:25:03 -0400

To: <rc...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [RCSE] Re: Picolario with 2.4Ghz radios?

[Bob Mosher (Thermal Raider)]

I know that voltage is a big factor in 2.4. If you are running on a 4
call you can drop below voltage under load and go into lock out. I
learned this the hard way. I now only use 5 cel batterys and have not
had any problem. This is on spectrum or JR. Just something to check
out.

[Bob Mosher (Thermal Raider)]

Sorry guys I forgot to put my name to my last post.

Bob Mosher
SVSS


On Oct 14, 9:43 am, "Bob Mosher (Thermal Raider)"

[Chuck Anderson]

My thoughts too. But it's not only 2.4 but also any other receiver
using computer technology. I don't know how many of the recent 72
receivers use computer technology but some do and will reboot if the
voltage drops too low.

Chuck Anderson

[dbeach]

On Oct 12, 10:07 pm, Hilaunch <hilau...@aol.com> wrote:
> ... For the Pic to transmit a  

> harmonic freq that would interfere with the 2.4 signal seems highly  
> unlikely.
>

Don - I agree with that notion but I'm convinced that there is
something going on here. Without access to an RF lab and lots of test
equipment all I can do is relay my 'real world' observations.

Most recently, I was flying the XCBD (nice plane by the way) with a
JR9000 reciever and Renschler Picolario on FRS channel 08 (462.6625
Mhz). About the time the pic said "1100 ft" and was happily beeping I
got that sickening "I don't have it" feeling. Moments later I
regained control, brought the plane in closer and all was well. The
on board data logger confirmed my feeling with a reported "24 holds" -
not good. The group at the field did some low power range testing on
the ground and observed a correlation between lost frames and
proximity of the pic to the remote receiver.

I tried today to recreate the field results in a more reproducible
manner in my basement. The results were generally inconclusive but I
was able to induce holds with the pic transmitting. The most
interesting test result came when I used a slider on the transmitter
to activate the pic. The pic started transmitting and receiver went
into a hold state (confirmed by the data logger and lack of lights on
the receivers). I then went back to the transmitter and slid the
slider to off. To my surprise the pic continued transmitting. Why?
It would not stop transmitting until the receiver came off hold. Sure
enough, I moved the pic away from the reciever, the lights came back
on, and the pic got silent. That certainly got my attention.

Word to the wise - "Make sure your failsafe settings include shutting
off the pic". With that setup you can be sure that if you get an
unexpected silence and/or version announcement, you probably
experienced a hold.

My hope is to better evaluation the situation without putting a plane
at risk. More to come ...

David

[Tom Kallevang]

Sorry, no, just the JR 12X and 9303 with 7, 9 and 12 channel rxs. tk --- On Wed, 10/14/09, David Whitaker <dwhi...@bex.net> wrote:

From: David Whitaker <dwhi...@bex.net> Subject: [RCSE] Re: Picolario with 2.4Ghz radios?

[Foxsoar]

Airtronics 2.4ghz. Rx do not quit until 2.4 volts or so. So voltage
should not be a issue. This I have somewhat tested in a HLG running a
single Li-po. All the serov's quit first

I tried a test earlier this year when I was testing the 2.4 module for
the Stylus and using a 8 channel Rx. The plane range checked fine to
start with. I then turned on the Pic and tried to turn on the RX. It
would not boot up. Thought maybe I did something wrong. So turned both
off. Turn on Rx and it worked, then turned on the Pic and everything
worked. Third time I turned Pic on first and then Rx and everything
worked. I did not have the Pic installed, but just laying on top of
the plane. I was going to get back to it, but just never had the
time. I was going to fly the pic last weekend at a aerotow, but forgot
and the weather was good enough you did not need a pic, so just
enjoyed. I want to use it next year, so maybe some testing over the
winter. Interesting conversation

Mike Fox

On Oct 15, 10:43 am, Tom Kallevang <tkal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sorry, no, just the JR 12X and 9303 with 7, 9 and 12 channel rxs.
> tk

> --- On Wed, 10/14/09, David Whitaker <dwhita...@bex.net> wrote:

[David Whitaker]

The following is a repost regarding Airtronic radios and the picolario.

The picolario that I am using I guess is the American version.  It uses the FSR walky talky frequencies. 

Dave Whitaker

David Whitaker wrote: I guess I really meant to say that the 8 channel receiver would not work with the picolario.  The 10 channel receiver does work with the picolario.

Dave Whitaker

David Whitaker wrote: I have used a picolario for several years.  This year I switched to 2.4.  I have always used Airtronics.  I purchased an RD8000 2.4 since the 10 channel was not out yet.  I put the receiver in an Olympic II sailplane.  The first range check that I performed, I could only get five feet.  After much diagnosis, I pulled the pic out of the plane.  The range was now fine.  I checked this many times.  I inquired about this to many people.  I contacted Global service, Barry Kennedy, and Cody Remmington.  None knew of the problem.

After a time, I purchased an Airtronics 10 channel.  I tried the picolario with that receiver and everything has worked fine.  I have flown to 2000 feet with this set up.  I have concluded that the 8 Channel (which is FHSS-1) has different circuitry than the 10 channel (which is FHSS-3).  I don't know what the difference is but the pic works fine with FHSS-3 but not FHSS-1.  I only have Airtronics radios so I don't have any experience with other brands.

I have a friend that bought a 7 Channel Airtronics receiver, and the pic did not work with that receiver.  That receiver is FHSS-1.  This is my experience.  Hope it sheds a little light.

Dave Whitaker