Now: IT Band Was: Goals for 2010
cyclotourist
On Jan 1, 4:29 pm, cyclotourist <cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So anybody got a list up and running???david,
>
> I'm hoping to get over my IT band pain in my left leg which limits my
> mileage. Went to sports medicine on Thurs and they have me on a stretching
> & strengthening regimen so will see how that works. They recommended a bike
> fit, but I'm kinda' relucatant to do that as they all are into the
> racey-bars 10cm below the saddle thing... any recommendations for SoCal fit
> specialists?
i struggled with IT band issues earlier this year, and it was only
after i figured out my saddle
was too HIGH that it started clearing up. the IT band stretches have
helped too.
i went to see a doc about it, and he put me on anti-inflammatory meds
for 2 months and had me back off on the hills until i was better.
that said, my saddle being too high was the culprit.
good luck getting that pain to go away!
-kim
--
Hi Kim, thanks for the feedback. Right now it's anti-inflammatory, stretching, dropping saddle and kicking the heel in on SPD per Dr.
Other advice has been to go wider Q with cranks, and orthotic inserts.
Will see how the first four work out as they are all free!!! FWIW I don't have problems on hilly rides, but spinning on the flats. Prob. developed when riding fixed gear/no foot retention, but now manifests with any combo of gears or footwear if there are enough miles involved.
--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym." ~Bill Nye, scientist guy
cyclotourist
THANKS!
Local chiropractor/bike fit: http://www.bodyfix.net/
Orthotics: http://www.aline.com/sports/aline-cycle
Not so local bike fit: http://bch.org/sportsmedicine/bio-andy-pruitt.aspx
Other (foam rolling): http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/flexibilityandstretching/ss/FoamRoller_5.htm
Also the basics of stretching, lowering the saddle and widening the Q were reiterated.
Will report back! :-)
tarik saleh
please report back! My recent knee glitch culminated in me going to
the doctor finally after years of little troubles. What I assumed was
4 years of ignorance of a tear/lack of cartilidge/and or arthritis in
my knee due to lots and lots and lots of running when I was younger
turned out to merely be some bursitus under my IT band. This was post
x-ray and MRI by a really good somewhat local orthopedist. Based on my
symptoms and my brothers diagnosis of no padding left in his knee (he
has the same running history and similar wonky biomechanics as me, 4
years of Div3 intercollegiate XC and indoor/outdoor track, 70 mile
weeks for half the year) I was pretty sure I was going to get the "you
need surgery" or the "no more running" diagnosis. Instead, I got the
"no restrictions unless it hurts alot, and stretch" diagnosis. Which
was like second Christmas. I have tried the foam roller, it hurts me
too much to use, I think that is because my IT band is so tight. So I
will just try stretching and easing into it and see.... It does not
really ever give me trouble riding. Only if my saddle is too low. But
it does give me some post running pain and weak/buckling feeling
sometimes. Anyhow, let me know, I will see. The doc also advised that
he has seen cortisteroid shots clear this up permanently, but I am
going to save that for when I really need it!
Later
Tarik
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Tarik Saleh
tas at tariksaleh dot com
in los alamos, po box 208, 87544
http://tariksaleh.com
all sorts of bikes blog: http://tsaleh.blogspot.com
cyclotourist
My Doc said cortisone would be a temp fix. There are cortisone patches that you can use also. He explained that it doesn't prevent further injury though, just kinda' masks the pain at the moment.
Long/short: hope you get some relief. You're also closer to Boulder, so maybe a trip up to Pruitt could be beneficial.
Frederick, Steve
cyclotourist
THANKS!
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PATRICK MOORE
Sometimes, as yesterday, climbs coincide with loads and headwinds.
I know that pushing the 75" gear seated for the 7 miles of gradual climbing from the RG valley to Juan Tabo would result in left knee twinges the next day, especially if cold; 69" and 66" gears not a problem. And standing does not seem to cause problems, whence my desire to develop my standing ability. And here's the question: does anyone have any medical information, as opposed to speculation, about standing and pedalling? Is this any worse for your knees than a stair stepper?
Thanks.
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumesp...@gmail.com
(505) 227-0523
PATRICK MOORE
PATRICK MOORE
Steve Palincsar
> Two more essential comments: one, no I don't want to use multiple
> gears and, two, I **love** fixed gear climbing, really! Certainly
> better than slogging angrily on the flats or spinning vainly and
> despairingly downhill.
Those, I take it, are the three choices riding fixed offers you?
PATRICK MOORE
Steve Palincsar
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
> wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-01-04 at 10:43 -0700, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> > Two more essential comments: one, no I don't want to use
> multiple
> > gears and, two, I **love** fixed gear climbing, really!
> Certainly
> > better than slogging angrily on the flats or spinning vainly
> and
> > despairingly downhill.
>
>
> Those, I take it, are the three choices riding fixed offers
> you?
>
> No, there's slogging angrily uphill and spinning despairingly on the
> flats and standing on downhills.
I didn't think standing on downhills was possible on fixed gears.
Funny there's no "happy" choice. I guess "fixed" is a recipe for
sadness and misery. At least, when confronted with a steep enough hill
you get to shift into your "twenty four inch" gear [i.e., "two feet"].
james black
>> On Mon, 2010-01-04 at 10:43 -0700, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>> > Two more essential comments: one, no I don't want to use multiple
>> > gears and, two, I **love** fixed gear climbing, really! Certainly
>> > better than slogging angrily on the flats or spinning vainly and
>> > despairingly downhill.
>> Those, I take it, are the three choices riding fixed offers you?
> No, there's slogging angrily uphill and spinning despairingly on the flats
> and standing on downhills.
You're making an excellent case for the profound, slogging-based
pleasures of the fixed gear.
James Black
cyclotourist
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Anne Paulson
I have a foam roller and have used it a time or two on my IT band.
It's excruciating painful, which wouldn't bother me so much if I knew
how it was supposed to be beneficial.
--
-- Anne Paulson
He who wills the ends wills the means
Patrick in VT
David - If you're experiencing flare-ups at a certain mileage
threshold, it's possible that your IT band hasn't completely calmed
down from last time you tweaked it.
Even if you're not experiencing pain, the tendon could still be
inflammed. Consider a daily icing regimen along with your prescribed
stretching routine to promote *full* recovery and healing.
I found that a 3 minute "ice massage" - rubbing an over-sized ice cube
over the inflamed area (I'm assuming it's where your IT band flips
over the bone on the outside of your knee) - 3 times a day did
wonders for my IT band rehab, which i've had to do 3 times now. First
bout was after a hilly fixed gear 400k. Second bout was after a
pancake flat 600k (on a geared bike). Third bout was after I rushed
the second bout rehab - tried to ride too far when i wasn't fully
healed. In each case, all of which involved acute pain (i couldn't
walk comfortably - couldn't walk down stairs at all), full recovery
took me about 4-6 weeks. took another month to *gradually* ramp up my
mileage, but I was absolutely 100% after that and haven't had any
issues since - mostly because I've stuck with the stretching and icing
regardless of how far i'm riding or how i'm feeling.
Another tip: if you're out spinning on the flats, grab a few gears
and stand-up every now and then - no need to sprint, just stand-up; do
some "on-bike" stretching/coasting if you're not riding fixed; be sure
to stretch if you do stop; change position frequently; and change your
cadence occasionally.
cyclotourist
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Patrick in VT
> I have a foam roller and have used it a time or two on my IT band.
> It's excruciating painful, which wouldn't bother me so much if I knew
> how it was supposed to be beneficial.
In theory, the foam roller may help to lengthen/stretch out the IT
band and help to "unstick" the tendon from the underlying muscle
tissues. I don't think it does either, although I do think that it
may be a good tool for self-massage - which can be beneficial during
treatment.
My physical therapy included "separation" massage - which is similar
to the unsticking theory. essentially, the physical therapist put her
entire body weight into what seemed like an attempt to pluck my IT
band like an upright bass. it was comical. and definitely painful,
although it did provide some immediate relief of acute pain.
so, I think the foam roller might be beneficial during the rehab/
treatment phase (massage is good for rehab - and the roller is
essentially self-massage), but i'm not sure it does anything that
proper stretching can't do during the fully healed/prevention phase.
Frederick, Steve
cyclotourist
Frederick, Steve
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Anne Paulson
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:48 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Now: IT Band Was: Goals for 2010
--
-- Anne Paulson
--
Patrick in VT
> And here's the question: does anyone have any medical information, as
> opposed to speculation, about standing and pedalling? Is this any worse for
> your knees than a stair stepper?
"any worse than," is a relative term, Patrick. Your riding style,
whether you're out of the saddle or not, puts a lot of stress on the
knees and isn't exactly a "best practice" if you're concerned with
avoiding/preventing knee injuries. whether it's comparable to a stair
stepper seems irrelevant.
That said, it sounds like you've adapted to a very low cadence riding
style and are well trained for it. and the fact that you're not
experiencing pain and haven't injured yourself indicates that you're
body can handle it (at least for the short term), as long as you stay
conditioned for it.
But, given that you are choosing a riding style that stresses the
knees, you should pay very close attention to any feedback that you're
getting from your body and don't ignore pain, regardless of how
insignificant a little "twinge" or "tweak" might seem. it sounds
like you're already doing this - you know that a 75" gear might cause
some pain in some circumstances, etc. that's being smart. you might
also have a look at the common symtoms associated with mashing/
grinding/etc. and know the signs. I know patellar tendonitis is a big
one for mashers and chondromalacia can also be a problem. don't know
much beyond that.
Andy.M
> It's excruciating painful, which wouldn't bother me so much if I knew
> how it was supposed to be beneficial.
Anne,
The idea behind the foam roller is that it "irons out" the muscle.
Its supposed to help break up the scar tissue that builds up from
years of use and abuse; and massage the muscle. I absolutely love
mine, I use it all the time. The pain is supposed to be a "good pain,
" in the sense that the roller is working, and should lessen the more
you use it.
They are available very reasonably from optp.com
-Andy
PATRICK MOORE
On Jan 4, 12:39 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And here's the question: does anyone have any medical information, as
> opposed to speculation, about standing and pedalling? Is this any worse for
> your knees than a stair stepper?
"any worse than," is a relative term, Patrick. Your riding style,
whether you're out of the saddle or not, puts a lot of stress on the
knees and isn't exactly a "best practice" if you're concerned with
avoiding/preventing knee injuries. whether it's comparable to a stair
stepper seems irrelevant.
Patrick in VT
> I meant this: is standing on steep climbs, or, IOW, standing and doing low
> cadence, high torque pedalling, bad for you knees? Is it any different from
> stair stepping?
I don't see how stair stepping is comparable unless you're taking a
few steps at a time, which would also be putting unnecessary stress on
the knees.
the way I understand it (based on text books and conversations with
physical therapists), the knee is essentially a bearing. in a healthy
knee, the back of the kneecap runs smoothly over the bones that make
up the knee joint because there is a nice layer of lubrication there.
when you forcefully extend your leg - e.g. push down on a step or
pedal - there is some contact pressure between the kneecap and knee
joint but the lubrication keeps everything working nicely. when you
put really big loads on the knee, it creates excessive contact
pressure and can actually displace the lubrication. bearings - and
joints - fail overtime when they're not properly lubricated.
in any event, i'm not a doctor. and you specifically asked for a non-
speculative answer. so, I apologize for this (although i don't think
it's pure speculation): I don't think anyone would endorse a day-in/
day-out, very low cadence, grind-your-way-uphill riding style if you
are concerned with the long term health of your knees. and making a
relative comparison to another activity which also stresses the knee
might not be best way to assess whether it's "bad for your knees."
PATRICK MOORE
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Patrick in VT
> Thanks, Patrick; I do appreciate your reply.
well, I hope some one can give you a more definitive answer. and i
certainly don't want to be discouraging - I also ride fixed gear, and
often push a bigger gear than I probably should. but knees ain't as
easy to replace cartridge bearings, you know? so i try to be careful
and moderate. anyway, if you don't mind, I'll continue to
speculate . ... .
>I should have been more clear about what I meant by "stair stepping:" I have in >mind those machines that people use in gyms
i don't think this is a comparable exercise. a normal step, even on
one of those machines, would probably be around 6-8 inches. when
pedaling, you're forcefully extending your leg and putting your knee
under load for roughly double that range of motion. in any event,
this video may help to visualize things -
http://www.youtube.com/user/Linearc
> although sitting and shoving a pedal over in too high a gear is by all accounts, >and by my own experience, bad for your knees, is standing to push over a >similar gear necessarily a bad thing in the long run?
i guess that's my point: whether sitting or standing, you're putting
an excessive load on your knees when geared to high. and it's the
load that matters when it comes wear and tear on joints.
no time for research, but google spit these sheldon articles out
quickly
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/standing.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed-knees.html
LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com
I’m joining this one late, again… and once again, this will likely be
lengthy…
IT Band trouble is rarely a primary cause of knee pain, or an
independently occurring malady. Unfortunately, there are no very good
studies of IT band syndrome. For instance, some researchers have found
that running across inclines causes IT band symptoms to occur in the
uphill leg, while others have found that the symptoms occur in the
downhill leg. Some researchers have found that slow running relieves
IT band symptoms in runners while others have found that faster
running relieves the symptoms… what the studies do not control for is
proximal (hip) and/or distal (lower leg) variables. Instead, most
researchers have only looked at “IT band tightness”, though some have
looked at the relationship between IT band symptoms and lower leg
external rotation (in ballet dancers). The upshot is that there is no
good research which implicates the IT band as a primary or independent
problem.
It is also important to note that the iliotibial band cannot be
stretched—you can apply tension through it, but there is no evidence
that a plastic change in its length can be made. We can stretch the
muscle (the tensor fascia latae) to which the IT band blends at the
pelvis, but even that will not produce an IT band length change. The
muscle itself (which, incidentally is only approximately 3-4" long),
when stretched will have minimal, if any effect on IT band syndrome.
The IT band becomes symptomatic when it is exposed to excessive
friction as the lateral femoral epicondyle moves under the IT band
during knee flexion and extension. There is a bursa—a cushion of sorts—
between the epicondyle and the IT band to minimize this friction.
When considering IT band problems, it is important to think about the
effect of the proximal attachment at the anterolateral aspect of the
pelvis and the distal attachment at Gerdy’s tubercle on the
anterolateral tibia a few centimeters distal to the jointline of the
knee. Proximally there is very little motion relative to the
underlying structures while distally there is greater motion relative
to underlying structures. When the orientation of the lateral
condyles of the tibia change relative to the epicondyles of the femur,
the IT band may be exposed to greater friction forces and becomes
susceptible to irritation, with pain following.
The orientation of the condyles and epicondyles can be most adversely
affected by either external rotation (“toes out”) of the lower leg
without rotation of the femur or internal rotation of the femur
(“knock-knees”) without rotation of the lower leg (that is, the lower
leg remaing neutral with toes pointing straight ahead). The worst-case
scenario is a combination of the two conditions. In either case
(femoral internal rotation or tibial external rotation), the
epicondyle of the femur is made more functionally prominent and
abrades the underside of the IT band.
There are several ways the orientation of the condyles/epicondyles may
occur. To create tibial external rotation: excessively tight lateral
hamstrings (biceps femoris) or excessively tight calf muscles
(gastrocnemius) lateral head, excessively weak medial hamstrings
(semitendinosis and semimembranosis) or medial gastrocnemius,
articular surface defects (such as arthritis) which my alter the path
of the tibia on the femur during knee extension/flexion. To create
femoral internal rotation: weak hip abductors and/or external
rotators, excessively tight hip adductors (inside thigh muscles) or
hip internal rotators. Of course, in cycling, poorly positioned cleats
can also create this problem.
How to "fix" IT band syndrome? Well, first tease out the cause
(weakness vs. tightness vs. a combination of the two). Then perform
the relevant exercises ("clamshells" with elastic resistance bands
around the knees and/or lateral stepping with elastic resistance bands
around the ankles for strengthening and hamstrings, adductors, calf
stretches for flexibility), ice and/or anti-inflammatories to control
swelling and pain. In extreme cases, some manual therapy in the form
of soft-tissue mobilization to reduce scar tissue may be required.
Regarding Patrick in VT's (I hear you folks got a good dump of snow
recently :) ) understanding that the effect of heavy resistance
creating excessive contact pressure between the articular surfaces of
the knee cap and the trochlear groove in which the knee cap glides,
there is, again, no evidence to support this as being damaging to the
knees. The exception to this is if one spends a substantial amount of
time kneeling on a hard surface (tile setters, for instance experience
this commonly). Prolonged heavy direct pressure can cause deformation
of the articular cartilage of the knee cap which may lead to
biomechanical pathology or simply pain. In exercises--even very heavy
squatting--there is little risk of damage to the cartilage of the knee
cap, presuming the rest of the kinetic chain is strong enough to
withstand the heavy exercise. In fact, compressive loading of
cartilage is actually essential to the health of the articular
surface. So…
Patrick Moore, unless you've already a knee problem, there's little
danger in unseated climbing on the fixed gear (and I'm happy that this
is so as I spend a great deal of time in that climbing mode, myself!)…
enjoy :)
I hope this helps!
lyle f bogart dpt
tacoma, wa
Tim McNamara
On Jan 5, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Patrick in VT wrote:
> On Jan 5, 2:47 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I should have been more clear about what I meant by "stair
>> stepping:" I have in >mind those machines that people use in gyms
>
> i don't think this is a comparable exercise. a normal step, even on
> one of those machines, would probably be around 6-8 inches.
Pedaling a bike, the movement is about the same range as climbing
average household or office stairs two at a time. That's much higher
than most stair steppers at the gym.
cyclotourist
So far the stretches I have done don't seem to help too much, but I just started them last week.
Cheers,
DE
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LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com
You've certainly got a number of variables at work here… do you have
pain in both knees? The scoliosis will likely affect the orientation
of your pelvis in the saddle, specifically I'd anticipate that your
pelvis would be somewhat rotated so the left hip/leg will be forward
of the right. This would have the effect of decreasing the internal
rotation of the thigh on the left, but increasing the amount of knee
flexion at the top of the pedal stroke on the left. Likewise, the
femoral internal rotation on the right will be somewhat increased…
There are several good reasons for the knock-knees: 1) tightness of
the hip adductors (muscles of the inner thigh), 2) tightness of the
hip internal rotators, 3) very weak hip abductors/external rotators,
4) congenital causes such as femoral torsion, femoral antervsion, or
tibiofemoral joint interface. Cause #4 we can't do anything about.
Causes 1-3 are correctable. For now, I would recommend continuing with
the stretching and strengthening of the hip muscles. When stretching,
make sure you stretch often throughout the day (more is better) and
maintain the stretched position for a few minutes at time. Too short a
stretch will yield an elastic change in the length of the tissues
being stretched; you likely need a plastic change. Also don't stretch
to the point of pain (discomfort, yes, but not pain). It may take a
couple of weeks before you notice much change in your flexibility if
you're significantly tight right now. Also remember that, even if
you're pretty strong in all the currently short muscles, you won't be
as strong in the newly acquired range of motion since you haven't been
strengthening in that range, so any strength deficits should be tended
to as well.
Changing the crank Q… widening the tread will have the effect of
decreasing somewhat the femoral internal rotation and may put the hip
external rotators into a more advantageous leverage position.
Unfortunately, it may also have the effect of increasing the external
rotation of the tibia so it may exacerbate the problem. I also have a
bias against changing more than one variable at a time since doing so
may make unclear what the most effective strategy is…
Moving the heel in a bit and lowering the saddle… I would definitely
not recommend this combination for you. If you're already internally
rotated at the femurs, decreasing saddle height will not only increase
this problem, it will also place your hip abductors/external rotators
into a disadvantageous leverage position possibly further exacerbating
the femoral internal rotation. Not changing the saddle height, but
turning your heel in (which is the same as externally rotating your
tibia) may, again, worsen the problem. Remember, femoral internal
rotation = tibial external rotation at the knee joint. Both of these
conditions are usually implicated in IT band syndrome.
Hope this makes sense!
lyle
> >http://www.sheldonbrown.com/standing.htmlhttp://www.sheldonbrown.com/...
>
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LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com
On Jan 5, 8:28 pm, "LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com" <lylebog...@gmail.com>
> ...
>
> read more »
PATRICK MOORE
Hi All!
the knee cap and the trochlear groove in which the knee cap glides,
there is, again, no evidence to support this as being damaging to the
knees. The exception to this is if one spends a substantial amount of
time kneeling on a hard surface (tile setters, for instance experience
this commonly). Prolonged heavy direct pressure can cause deformation
of the articular cartilage of the knee cap which may lead to
biomechanical pathology or simply pain. In exercises--even very heavy
squatting--there is little risk of damage to the cartilage of the knee
cap, presuming the rest of the kinetic chain is strong enough to
withstand the heavy exercise. In fact, compressive loading of
cartilage is actually essential to the health of the articular
surface. So…
Patrick Moore, unless you've already a knee problem, there's little
danger in unseated climbing on the fixed gear (and I'm happy that this
is so as I spend a great deal of time in that climbing mode, myself!)…
enjoy :)
LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com
If the "twinging" in the knees is not sharp pain (dull pain, aching is
okay) then I would consider it not great for your knees. However, that
is not from seated high torque pedaling per se. I'd bet the seated
high torque pedaling is revealing a weakness/dysfunction elsewhere in
the kinetic chain--weakness or excessive tightness (or a combination
of the two) at the hips for instance--which yields poor biomechanics
at the knee joint. Watch for any lateral/medial deviation of the knee
during the pedal stroke; if present, you've likely got weakness in the
hips, laterally. If the knee twinging does not begin until 18-36 hours
after and resolves reasonably quickly/easily then I wouldn't really
worry much about it... that's more indicative of soft-tissue stress.
Hope it helps!
lyle "DPT may be a doctorate, but functionally it's Damned Poor
Typist" bogart
tacoma, wa
On Jan 5, 9:39 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:13 PM, LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com <
>
Tim McNamara
On Jan 5, 2010, at 10:28 PM, LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com wrote:
> I also have a bias against changing more than one variable at a
> time since doing so
> may make unclear what the most effective strategy is…
What he said.
PATRICK MOORE
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Patrick in VT
wrote:
> I'd bet the seated
> high torque pedaling is revealing a weakness/dysfunction elsewhere in
> the kinetic chain--weakness or excessive tightness (or a combination
> of the two) at the hips for instance--which yields poor biomechanics
> at the knee joint.
thanks for detailed replies, Lyle. so, if I understand it correctly,
as long as there are no weak links in the kinetic chain, it's all
good. and conditions like chondromalacia, etc., which are commonly
associated with pushing to big a gear, are better explained and
treated by dealing with the weak links than by focusing on the knee
joint as separate from the kinetic chain.
in other words, if one has a clean, well lubed kinetic chain and is
not experiencing pain, then low cadence cycling, fixed gear or
otherwise, is not cause for concern regarding the long term health of
one's joints.
I really hope my kinetic chain is strong! 70" fixed gear through
snow and burlington hills ain't no joke ;)
what is considered low cadence anyway - less than 70 rpm? less than
60rpm?
LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com
I could never tell what which was worse: going down College Street in
Burlington on a fixed gear in the snow & ice or going back up it!
Enjoy!
Chondromalacia is a specific pathology in which the articular surface
of the knee cap softens. This problem typically responds well to
activities which compress the cartilage ("gentle" compression and
release of articular cartilage appears to be the way in which these
tissues acquire nutrients as they have no significant intrinsic blood
source). If you're mashing along, not experiencing lateral/medial
deviation of the knee (knees "diving" toward or away from the top-
tube), and not experiencing pain... well, no good reason to stop.
I've no idea, really what constitutes low cadence... 80 rpm seems fine
under most circumstances for me... 12 rpm seem kinda slow unless it's
really steep...
lyle