eCLEM

[Joe Bernard]

I did the deed and you can see it here. I bought this kit used and attached to a hybrid, then decided I liked it so much that I wanted it on a nicer bike. It still needs wood fenders installed, and the wires need a better cover than that blue plastic I jury-rigged to avoid today's after-rain spray. Check it out, people who check out things!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/18972972@N08/shares/GR3Qjv

Joe "Electric Avenue" Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

[Joe Bernard]

Oh, I forgot to explain the bags. What you see is an old Baggins Candybar on a Nitto Grip..that holds the controller. On top of that is an Acorn Tool Bag in the bag loops. Clever, eh? ;)

[iamkeith]

I probably SHOULD be disgusted.... but tinkerer, ex-motorhead in me is really intrigued.   I have an old fat bike frame that I daydream about trying this with.   Please let us know how well it works.  Good on you for taking the chance and opening yourself up to critique, if nothing else!

[Joe Bernard]

I'm a current motorhead (I love auto racing and my FIAT Abarth) and ex motorcycle rider, so this clicks several boxes for me. I don't consider eCLEM a replacement for my non-assist bikes; it's kind of a different thing, like a really light, low-power motorbike you can pedal.

I know Grant had no intention of accomplishing it, but his long-chainstay design and stable handling is a fabulous platform for electric assist. I did a very hilly ride today, mostly with the assist at low levels so I was still doing some of the work, and it was an absurd amount of fun.

I'm not here to convert anyone to electric, I'm just showing it because it's on my Riv, and this is where people show their Rivs. Am I the first to try it? I know Dave at RBW intends to do one eventually, but I don't think he's gotten to it yet. I should ride it to Walnut Creek and show him!

[masmojo]

I am not opposed to E-assist, in some cases; a motor sports fan myself. I do have to admit out of all the bikes I have, my Clementine is the one I feel could benefit the most from something like this & when I am plodding up a hill with 12lbs of crap in the basket, cartoon images of typhoon tail winds, antigravity devices & motors dance through my head.
My main fear is that out of all my bikes the Clementine gets the call up more often then I'd like to admit, if I put a motor on her, I might never ride anything else!?

[Lungimsam]

Very cool.
Looks like fun.
My wife wants an ebike for her next bike.
A Ricendell with Copenhagen wheel would be cool. Rivendell could just sell Copenhagen wheels on their site. But they are very expensive.

[Patrick Moore]

I'd ride it! But you need fatter tires -- Big Apples would be just right.

What is the motor kit? And how fast and for how long can it go?

And, lastly, we need a photo of that Abarth. I recall hot rodded Fiat 500s and 600s (the original tiny ones) from my youth -- rather cute.

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[LLM]

Make and model?

[Jeremy Tavan]

That seems like a fabulous idea to me. I've been trying to figure out the role that each of my bikes will fill, and the idea of an electric-assist conversion for the clem hadn't occurred to me. But you're right, the clem would make a nice, roomy, stable platform for such a conversion, and it would make the Clem a sufficiently different beast from other wide-tire utility bikes that it would have a distinct role. What motor and battery kit is that? I think you've inspired me!

Thanks,

/Jeremy

[Joe Bernard]

The kit is the highest-power one from Doug in Fairfield, CA. Great guy..I bought it used, then he sold me the pedal-assist parts (it was throttle only) and relaced the wheel to 26 inch. Tell 'im Joe sent ya! gocarlite.com

2013 Abarth
https://flic.kr/p/GYMJsQ

[Lungimsam]

The only concerns I would have with continuing with the eClemming are:

1. That battery looks heavy. Might make it easy to pop unwanted wheelies.

2. If you plan to keep running this e-version of a Clem, maybe call RBW to confirm that it will not void your un-warranty. With the recent blug post about disque brakes and forces on tubes, they might have some thoughts on eClemming. 

[Steve Palincsar]

In what way does an e-bike drivetrain put stresses and forces on frame tubes that are not identical to those produced by a strong rider?  I just don't see it.

As for the weight balance issue, how much worse do you think it might be than something like this fairly typical - at least, not even slightly unusual looking Joe Appaloosa I found in the Rivendell Flickr group?



There were several bikes on our Riv Rally East GAP tour set up like this and more - in some cases carrying a lot more - and nary a wheelie was seen. 

Not that I'm any kind of fan of e-bikes, I'm not.  I tried one for a few tenths of a mile on the W&OD trail in East Falls Church and wasn't at all impressed with the way a slight touch of the pedals to get going at a grade crossing (at a section in the trail where there's one ever block) instead of just getting me rolling shot me out into the middle of the road.  It didn't feel like an "assist" as much as it did "a mind of its own" and it didn't seem pleasant to me.  Of course, I wasn't struggling up a hard hill and didn't get the benefit of motor power turning a hard effort into a big nothing, so I didn't experience the e-bike rai·son d'ê·tre.

[Lungimsam]

I am just guessing, based on the report that at my LBS they say that their model can get up to 40mph inside their parking lot. I don't think too many humans could get a bike going that fast in such a short distance based on leg power. So I was deducing the possibility of acute strain on chainstays, etc. to jam that much power through the stays in such a short time frame. Of course, I know nothing about these things so I could be wrong.

I don't know what speeds Joe's eClem pulls but just thought it would be good to check with RBW so he doesn't get an unwarranty claim rejected because he's using an electric assist.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/22/2016 01:17 PM, Lungimsam wrote:

I am just guessing, based on the report that at my LBS they say that their model can get up to 40mph inside their parking lot. I don't think too many humans could get a bike going that fast in such a short distance based on leg power. So I was deducing the possibility of acute strain on chainstays, etc. to jam that much power through the stays in such a short time frame. Of course, I know nothing about these things so I could be wrong.

Not sure what to make of that.  Here's what Trek says about its top of the line $3500 e-bike:

The fastest electric-enhanced bike ever

XM700+ is the first of its kind: an electric-enhanced bicycle that delivers a new dimension in commuting, offering riders the freedom and flexibility that comes with sustained speeds of up to 28mph.

Imagine what you can do with the time you'll save. Whether it's an early meeting or happy hour, XM700+ gets you there faster while bringing a new measure of excitement to your daily grind.

I don't know what speeds Joe's eClem pulls but just thought it would be good to check with RBW so he doesn't get an unwarranty claim rejected because he's using an electric assist.

--

[Lungimsam]

I dont temember the model. Only know what the salesman said.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/22/2016 01:33 PM, Lungimsam wrote:

I dont temember the model. Only know what the salesman said.

Quoting the Wikipedia:

An electric bicycle, also known as an e-bike or booster bike, is a bicycle with an integrated electric motor which can be used for propulsion. There are a great variety of e-bikes available worldwide, from e-bikes that only have a small motor to assist the rider's pedal-power (i.e., pedelecs) to somewhat more powerful e-bikes which tend closer to moped-style functionality: all, however, retain the ability to be pedalled by the rider and are therefore not electric motorcycles. E-bikes use rechargeable batteries and the lighter varieties can travel up to 25 to 32 km/h (16 to 20 mph), depending on the laws of the country in which they are sold, while the more high-powered varieties can often do in excess of 45 km/h (28 mph). In some markets, such as Germany, they are gaining in popularity and taking some market share away from conventional bicycles,^[1] while in others, such as China, they are replacing fossil fuel-powered mopeds and small motorcycles.^[2][3]

Depending on local laws, many e-bikes (e.g., pedelecs) are legally classified as bicycles rather than mopeds or motorcycles, so they are not subject to the more stringent laws regarding their certification and operation, unlike the more powerful two-wheelers which are often classed as electric motorcycles.

While higher power models obviously exist, I think mostly what the bike shops are pushing are pedelecs aimed at commuters.  Around here (metro DC area) that's typically a 20 mph top speed pedelec, like the Trek I linked to.  I know a few people who have that bike or one similar but lacking the Headshok suspension.  There are far more expensive models (Specialized has an electric mountain bike that's around ten thousand bucks, but I have no idea of its top speed) but based on everything I've read, if they've got one that can get up to 40 mph in as small a space as a typical LBS parking lot that's got to be an electric motorcycle.  I doubt most cars can get up to 40 in that small a space even using Launch Control and doing a furious burn-out.  Perhaps the salesman is exaggerating?  Of course, they would never lie...

[Joe Bernard]

1. The highest speed I've seen with this kit on its original KHS frame; and now CLEM yesterday; is a pedal-pushed 28mph, which is easily do-able on descents around here without a motor. It rides like a normal stoutish-built Rivendell with a bunch of weight added in. The motor's top speed on flat ground is around 20.

Concerning one poster's comment about charging out into traffic with a big burst of frame-stressing speed, DON'T DO THAT. I wouldn't grab a handful of throttle on an e-bike any more than I would a motorcycle. I ride it like a normal bicycle that has a massive tailwind for the very steep climb back to my house after a day's journey.

2. I told Grant about this before it was finished, and sent him and Dave finished photos yesterday. Dave expressed some interest in electric on the Blug a few months ago, and we chatted about them then. None of us ever mentioned a warranty 'cause making a claim on one after putting a motor on their frame would be madness. I bought it, I modified it, I break it, I own it. Done!

[Patrick Moore]

Expensive, but cheaper than a car. I wonder how they compare with Whizzer motors. (Since this thread is drifting toward motors, I will just add in amazement that the tuners of the pro 50 cc motorcycle class were getting close to 20 hp out of those things, which could hit 120 mph.)

Here is a photo of a cyclist who rigged his own bike carrier on the back of his little Fiat.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/22/2016 02:43 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

Concerning one poster's comment about charging out into traffic with a big burst of frame-stressing speed, DON'T DO THAT. I wouldn't grab a handful of throttle on an e-bike any more than I would a motorcycle. I ride it like a normal bicycle that has a massive tailwind for the very steep climb back to my house after a day's journey.

If it was my comment about riding on the W&OD in East Falls Church, with a road crossing every block, I think you misunderstand what I was talking about.   The trail approaches the street at a number of places, like this one at Oak Street (google Street View image)



What I normally do on a "real bike" is stop at the stop line before the curb cut and dismount on one foot, then when I am ready to proceed, stand on the "up" pedal.  On a "real bike" that gets me rolling at around 4 mph (I'm not talking about anything violent here) but still able to come to a sudden halt should a car come up suddenly (some of those crossings don't have the best sight lines).  With the electric bike, that same step down on the up pedal put me right into the middle of the intersection, say onto the 3rd or 4th white bar in the road you see above rather than with my wheel on the one just past the curb cut -- which sure stressed me, if not the bike!

The issue isn't one of violent stress on the bike, but rather of not being able to creep slowly enough, of being out of my control and under that of the machine instead.  Now maybe experience would teach me how to moderate that thrust, just as perhaps experience would teach me how to use the disc brakes so as to slow down gently instead of locking the wheel as soon as I started applying pressure on the brake lever so as, I thought, to take up the slack in the cable.

In all, I didn't like it at all.  Seems to me if I'm going to have to learn how to ride all over again to deal with a motorcycle, it's going to be something like this:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/22/2016 02:50 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
> Expensive, but cheaper than a car. I wonder how they compare with
> Whizzer motors.

A lot less exhaust stink and noise, for sure.

[Joe Bernard]

Understood..I'm not trying to convince you that e-bikes are a thing you should like. Mine is set up with a 0-5 pedal-assist, and I would use 0 for the riding situation you described. I like this motor on this frame in the conditions I ride in, but there are scenarios - like a MUP with joggers and people pushing strollers - where it would NOT be welcome.

To reiterate before this turns into a helmet-type thread: This is a thing I did with my Riv, so I hollered about it on the Riv forum. YRMV, including thinking it's perfectly awful. That's ok! Now I better hush up and go riding...

[Joe Bernard]

Wow, Patrick, that's quite a bodge. Someone should tell that guy he can buy bike racks actually designed for FIAT 500s...

[Patrick Moore]

Joe: FWIW, I think your electrification is truly Rivendellian. If the motor serves a real purpose, and you can use a Rivendell to accomplish that purpose, then you have hit a true sweet spot.

On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Understood..I'm not trying to convince you that e-bikes are a thing you should like. Mine is set up with a 0-5 pedal-assist, and I would use 0 for the riding situation you described. I like this motor on this frame in the conditions I ride in, but there are scenarios - like a MUP with joggers and people pushing strollers - where it would NOT be welcome.

To reiterate before this turns into a helmet-type thread: This is a thing I did with my Riv, so I hollered about it on the Riv forum. YRMV, including thinking it's perfectly awful. That's ok! Now I better hush up and go riding...

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[Patrick Moore]

IIRC, I came across this man very shortly after the neo retro F 500 came into the US market, so he may have been too far on the front of the wave.

On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wow, Patrick, that's quite a bodge. Someone should tell that guy he can buy bike racks actually designed for FIAT 500s...

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[Joe Bernard]

Ah, I think I saw that back thing, Patrick. The 500 is not an easy car to rack if you have the sunroof or convertible, so there was a lot of bodging going on at first. I have the cabrio, which I never even *tried* to figure out. If I need to transport, I pull the wheels off a regular bike and stuff the frame in the back seat, or take a folder. Easy!

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/22/2016 03:19 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:
> Understood..I'm not trying to convince you that e-bikes are a thing you should like. Mine is set up with a 0-5 pedal-assist, and I would use 0 for the riding situation you described. I like this motor on this frame in the conditions I ride in, but there are scenarios - like a MUP with joggers and people pushing strollers - where it would NOT be welcome.
>
> To reiterate before this turns into a helmet-type thread: This is a thing I did with my Riv, so I hollered about it on the Riv forum. YRMV, including thinking it's perfectly awful. That's ok! Now I better hush up and go riding...
>

No, I think collectively we are all a very, very long way from the way
helmet threads are. Positions aren't hardened here; I think many people
are trying to understand whether and where these things might be of
value, and where they absolutely don't belong. That's the exact
opposite of the helmet situation.

The folks I know in the bike club who use them are all to some extent
physically handicapped: blocked coronary arteries, damage done by
previous heart attacks, or "just plain got old and tired." Those folks
have managed to integrate pretty well into a group while riding a fairly
busy MUP, at least for short distances (the rides in question don't stay
on the path where there's a real alternative).

I have seen the occasional electrified commuter who is clearly in too
much of a hurry for the trail -- even the major league pathletes don't
go quite as fast as that guy with the electrified Bike Friday -- and
I've heard some major complaints from club riders about a guy who
brought a pedelec on a club ride and used it to effortlessly zoom to the
head of the pack while they were grunting up a long steep hill; somehow
they viewed that as cheating.

One of those friends with an e-bike also mentioned another issue he's
noted: speed vs range. He brought the e-bike to a moderately long and
not slow (not fast, either, nothing like the higher rated classes) club
ride, and discovered that he couldn't keep up with a 13 mph average
speed group on a 50 mile ride without having to use so much power he ran
out of battery before the end of the ride, and once that happened thanks
to the additional weight of the e-bike he no longer could keep up on
pedal power alone. To do 50 miles, he'd have to go slower to extend
the range; but the groups that ride at that slower speed also ride
shorter rides, and besides he could keep up with those folks on a
non-electrified bike... provided they stay away from harder, steeper
climbs, which they do as a matter of course.

So, then is there a role for a pedelec on a recreational ride? Where, if
anywhere, do they fit in, and under what circumstances? Some of us are
still trying to understand that.

[Joe Bernard]

Personally, I think mixing an e-bike into a group ride - fast or recreational - kinda defeats the purpose of the group's ride. I wouldn't do it, but them again I don't do group rides so this isn't an issue I need to sort out. I electrified one of my bikes because I think it's fun. It's not going to do 15mph for 50 miles, which is ok because I don't do that on regular bikes, either.

Where it's made the biggest difference in my life is this: I used to have days on my big hill where I blew off a ride because I just didn't feel like doing that long, slow slog home, so I ended up on the couch. Now those days become assisted rides where I'm still outside and still pedaling. Upgrade!

[Joe Bernard]

A couple other Riv comments: 1. The Choco-Moose is a fabulous bar. It feels like the grip position and angle were custom fit for me..amazing. 2. That mustard Appaloosa is gorgeous. There's a 51 Ready To Ride at RBW right now, and I'd dearly love to find the cash for it. It would not get an electric motor :)

[David Person]

I did the same with my Public D8i and my wife's Linus M8i.  Now we stay together and actually ride more.

[David Person]

Joe, might I suggest one of these, especially with the double kickstand:

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/vo-wheel-stabilizer.html

Makes a big difference in keeping that front wheel from flopping over when parked.

David

[David Person]

But I still love my Sam Hillborne.

[Joe Bernard]

Yep, I'm ordering one tonight. Not a fan of the wheel floppage!

[David Person]

Enjoy the ride.

[Joe Bernard]

I like your Public D8. They make pretty bikes.

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Joe,

I think the eCLEM is awesome. I'm tempted to help with shlepping the kids and also having my spouse out more with me/us on rides. Don't think we're in the market for it now, though.

Tailwinds-- just dial it up by throttle!

shoji

[masmojo]

To those people who have tried Ebikes only one thing I would mention & that is that not all systems work the same AND in only the last couple years most systems have improved measurably.
I don't have any real knowledge of this unfortunately, beyond my recent online research on the subject, there's a local shop that only sells Ebikes and I do intend to get over there and try some out.
That said, some systems are like a throttle pull & go! Others newer systems are really just assistances, with the amount of assistance set by situation. Riding on a flat or downhill? Dial the assist back; going up hill or gotta boggie? Crank it up.
Should Ebike riders join normal club rides!? Wow, no I don't think so! I personally would feel weird doing that. E assist shouldn't be used to somehow make you feel like Greg Lemond.

[Joe Bernard]

Yes, the varying levels of pedal assist make for a much more bicycle-like ride than the ones where you just jam the throttle and hold on. Mine has both, but Faraday makes a lovely PAS-only bike; they purposely eschew a throttle so that their classicly styled double-tuber remains a bicycle.

I did my second ride on eCLEM yesterday and did about half of it with no power at all, then used 1-3 later in the day as the winds started howling. I still got a decent workout, but managed to make it back before dark. I was very grateful for the option right about then, 'cause that slog home after the winds kicked in would've been endless.

[David Person]

Thanks Joe.  The Alfine/Nexus IGH works quite will with the e-assist, being able to downshift while stationary if I forget to do so before stopping for a light.  It adds noticeable weight to the rear wheel and the steps are as nice as the 2 x 9 on my Sam, but they balance out the weight of the front hub motor well, especially with the battery on the downtube.

[Joe Bernard]

Yep yep, that's the way I would go if I was starting from scratch with a new kit. This one pulled from an old KHS is very rear-heavy, which works well enough on the very stable CLEM with long chainstays, but it's not ideal. The first thing I'll change when this battery wears out is to put a new pack in a frame bag.

[David Person]

I meant to say that the steps between gears on the 8 speed Nexus/Alfine are not as even as the 2 x 9 setup on the Sam.

[Cecily Walker]

This is definitely relevant to my interests! Great job, Joe!

[Joe Bernard]

Thanks, Cecily!

[Jonathan Shinefeld]

Love it! I did something similar with my LHT (opting to leave the Ramboulliet analog). Echoing a previous poster, fat tires are a good idea. You'll get going faster than you might be used to and a poor man's suspension provides much better control on uneven surfaces.
Jon Shinefeld
PhilaPA

[Joe Bernard]

I agree the bike could use bigger rubber - right now the amount of tire clearance is almost comical, like a lifted Jeep running mini spares - but I'm pretty happy with the 1.6 Continentals, so they'll be on there 'til they wear out. The previous bike the electric kit was on had 700 x 28, so I'm already familiar with the ride and handling on skinny tires. Realistically electric doesn't make your bike faster than you would normally be traveling on a long descent, it just hits those speeds more often.

[Evan Baird]

When I first saw the geometry for these I figured that was Riv's plan all along. It makes perfect sense. The ebike commuter market in California is set to grow far in excess of the rest of the bike industry combined, and there bikes are loads more appealing to the target demographics (aka non spandorks).

[Joe Bernard]

Evan, I'm not sure Grant had much thought of ebikes in the development of CLEM, but I'll buy that the youngsters may have given it some thought. I know Dave rode a bunch of electrics in Taiwan, and plans to get a shop CLEM boosted one of these days. It's definitely a good platform for it, although I think the commuter market is in turnkey ebikes, not kit conversions. I would be shocked if we ever saw a dedicated eRiv..I suspect just reading that sentence would make GP blanch ;-)

[Ryan Fleming]

Not ready to go there yet, but it's something to consider especially that I'm on the tail end of the boomer generation (born in 1952) where health issues can start...arthritis, heart issues...whatever and it looks like you can turn the assist off. If it prolongs your bike-riding life then I say go for it. I've seen a few electric/gas-powered assist McGivered  bikes in Winnipeg. Joe, I think you did a very interesting thing there, actually.  Yes, you should ride it to Walnut Creek and show it off! 

On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 4:04:43 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

I'm a current motorhead (I love auto racing and my FIAT Abarth) and ex motorcycle rider, so this clicks several boxes for me. I don't consider eCLEM a replacement for my non-assist bikes; it's kind of a different thing, like a really light, low-power motorbike you can pedal.

I know Grant had no intention of accomplishing it, but his long-chainstay design and stable handling is a fabulous platform for electric assist. I did a very hilly ride today, mostly with the assist at low levels so I was still doing some of the work, and it was an absurd amount of fun.

I'm not here to convert anyone to electric, I'm just showing it because it's on my Riv, and this is where people show their Rivs. Am I the first to try it? I know Dave at RBW intends to do one eventually, but I don't think he's gotten to it yet. I should ride it to Walnut Creek and show him!

[Joe Bernard]

Here's a new pic from my Two Bridges ride through Vallejo/Benicia/Martinez/Crockett today. New Nitto rack from Riv; Platrack and whatever that bag is called from Franklyn. Thanks, Franklyn!

[Evan Baird]

For the record, I'm keeping it all organic until my shitty joints finally crap out.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/02/2016 05:30 PM, Evan Baird wrote:
> For the record, I'm keeping it all organic until my shitty joints finally crap out.
>

Even when they do, prosthetics don't require electric powered bicycles
(having half an artificial knee I can speak with personal knowledge on
this subject). Actually most everyone I know using e-bikes has either
blocked coronary arteries or a heart damaged by an MI. That could just
be the demographic I hang out with, though...

[Joe Bernard]

To be clear - I'm not sure it is anymore in this long thread - my interest in ebikes is primarily because they're fun. Yes it makes my big hill easier to climb, but I didn't buy my first electric for any other reason than I found one cheap on Craigslist in my area, and thought it would be interesting to try. It turned out to be WAY more fun than I anticipated, which is how we got to eCLEM. I can still climb the hill on my non-asist bikes, and sometimes still do. Sometimes I don't!

[David Person]

Very cool Joe.

[Joe Bernard]

Someone mentioned I would need fatter tires (Patrick Moore?), and I blew it off with "later after the skinny slicks wear out..I'll be fine." Wrong! I greatly underestimated how harsh the ride would be on a now-heavy bicycle capable of running a consistent 20mph. Sheesh! I have Continental "Traffic II" 2.1-inch tires on the way.

[Evan Baird]

That's good to know, although I doubt I'd be able to afford that kind of surgery (I work for republicans after all).

[masmojo]

Yes, a good observation Joe, I was just noticing the other day how many Ebikes had fatter tires. Heck, a fair number are fatbikes!
I put fatter (2.2") tires on my Clementine the other day and just the additional weight of the tires themselves over my previous ones, gave me pause to think about the consequences of adding power & weight!

[Steve Palincsar]

When you're old enough to actually need a knee replacement (or, for that matter, a coronary by-pass) you'll probably be on Medicare.

[Evan Baird]

Unfortunately it's probably going to be a lot sooner than that. I'm almost a cripple as it is. But hand cycles are cool!

[Joe Bernard]

eCLEM again, now with Actual Size tires, Continental 2.1 semi-knobbies called Traffic. I bought them because I like the name Traffic.

I rode it to RBW HQ today to buy that Wald basket, establishing I can get 32 miles out of the battery with a combination of low- and no-assist pedaling. Grant and a few other folks rode it, and everybody seemed to have fun in a "riding with cards in the spokes" kinda way. Bikes are fun!

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting new "eBike for the masses" on Bike Radar:

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/lectro-999-electric-fat-bike-first-look-47321/

Also: Did you know that you don't really need disc brakes? -- at least if you are looking for a modestly priced bike.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/road-discs-are-great-but-do-you-actually-need-them-47325/

The article says in effect, "rim brakes are fully good enough if you're not really riding hard."

Now, I prefer discs off road, largely because of the rims it lets me use, but as far as solid braking, any type of good rim brake is fully as good as mechanical discs in dry weather, with 30 mm tires, and on pavement. (Well, perhaps not Mafac cantis.)

[Joe Bernard]

That electric fatbike is decent for the price, but there's already a dozen of them at various 'entry level' price points. For that money you get lots of weight and cheap parts..money I'd rather spend on kitting an actual good bicycle. Like CLEM!

[Surlyprof]

Joe,

This isn't your eClem on CL is it? https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/5644170918.html

[Joe Bernard]

Yeah, it's kind of a lark in the unlikely event that someone wants to pay that. I'm trying to finance a new blue Appaloosa I hadn't planned on buying (which I'm on the way to RBW to pick up right now). I'm just going to let the ad lapse, though..I'm pretty fond of that eCLEM, and will be happy to keep it.

[Evan Baird]

Talk to a whole mess of ebike nerds at the New Wheel open house. Different aesthetic preferences abound. I did check out a 29+ cargo bike that might just be my next dream bike.

[Joe Bernard]

Cargo bikes are where I see e-assist being the most relevant application for bicycles. I use it for fun and to cover longer, hillier distances than I normally would, but where it really comes in as car replacement is when you can do heavy hauling trips you would never do without the motor.

[Surlyprof]

I got to ride a Butcher and Bicycles MK1e Cargo Bike in Copenhagen and thought it was the ultimate car replacement.  Unfortunately, I think it also costs as much as my truck!

John

[Mike Horgan]

Hello People -

First post, just discovered this group.  I decided to reply to this older thread because I am also considering building an eClem.

I've been commuting on this electrified pseudo-Riv for 2 years now:

It's made by Brooklyn Bicycles, who were lucky to have Grant as a consultant when they were starting up. It has a 7-speed Shimano IGH which I really love.

Unfortunately, constantly cruising 18 - 20 mph over rough New England roads have taken a toll; a seat rail and fender mount snapped this week and there seems to be some general 'klankiness' happening somewhere in the front end over broken pavement. It also maxes out at 38mm tires when 50s would be a huge help.

I'm thinking that a Clem would be a sturdier base upon which to build a reliable commuter.  Would you guys generally agree?

Happy to answer any questions about my ebiking experience. I'll say up front that arriving at work in street clothes and unsweaty beats continuing to soak though my shirt for 30 minutes after arriving at my desk.  It's also faster (because traffic) and 1000% more fun than driving.  I really look forward to commuting every morning now.

Mike

Arlington, MA

[Deacon Patrick]

Dear Mike,

Awesome use of an e-bike, Mike! Kudos! Welcome to the group and the rabbit hole! Grin.

Having no idea on the differences between tubing and more I can't speak to the "sturdier" aspect, but the craftsmanship Grant and Co. put into their bikes is stunning. I have beaten the living daylights out of my fully loaded Hunqapillar for over 5 years and it keeps asking for more. I suspect you would fine the Clem perfect for your needs. However, it is also worth naming factors that decrease riding impact:

-- do you unweight the seat for rough spots? Shift your weight to your feet and handlebars, let the bike rock, bounce, jounce, and roll beneath you. I imagine an e-bike and those constant speeds increases such need. Grant has a chapter on this in "Just Ride," well worth reading.

-- tires. Wide tires inflated to lower pressures absorb impact much more than narrower and/or higher pressures. Tires with stiffer sidewalls and flat protection (likely what you prefer for commuting) won't absorb as much as supple tires (like Compass tires). Of course, there is the whole e-bike rated tire thing, which I know nothing about.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

Hi Mike, that's my CLEM that I put a rather primitive and heavy e-kit on last year. It looks like you're using a Bafang mid-drive which is much better and lighter (I have a BBS02 on a folding bike). I highly recommend swapping to a CLEM: it's a stout frame and the long wheelbase (with fat tires) makes for a very stable ride at the speeds you're doing. Enjoy!

[Mike Horgan]

Thanks Joe.   Great to hear from the person who seems to be the primary ebike proponent in this group. For me, riding an assisted bike for the first time was a lightning bolt moment. I can't see going back as far as for daily transportation.  I read some posts here about ebikes on group rides and that doesn't seem like a good cultural fit (at least for a mostly-able rider).  But for basic shopping, getting to work, riding into town for an evening event I can't think of a more enjoyable way to travel.  If you're riding specifically to work up a sweat then more power to you, but for getting around with as little stress, fuss and cost as possible ebikes rock.

Although the higher-end Rivs are very (very!) attractive to me, I think I agree with you that the stout frame and limousine proportions of a clem is probably the best option.  My current bike will probably make it through this season with a little TLC (this weekend I replaced the broken saddle and tightened up a few loose bolts) so maybe a new build over the winter will be just the thing.

I'd say 'Enjoy!' to you too, but I think you already do ;)

[Mike Horgan]

Thanks for the warm welcome Patrick.   I've read a good number of your posts here and appreciate all your contributions to the group.

On this bike I'm limited to 38mm tires and yes, I am running Schwalbes with their flat protection. Which seems to work well, as I've got 2 years / 2.5 seasons under them without any problems.  I usually run them at 60 PSI; I'll try taking that down a bit, maybe to 40?  I do try to unweight over rough stuff, but sometimes you just don't see it coming.

A 58 or 62 Hunqa build would be perfect, I'll start saving ;)

Best,

Mike Horgan

[Chris Lampe 2]

I had some time to kill yesterday so I stopped into a big LBS that I have only been to once, several years ago.  My primary purpose was to see in-person and possibly ride a "+" bike.  I ended up killing many birds with one stone, when the owner came out and chatted me up and asked if I had time to ride an e-bike.  He had a whole row of demo bikes and he asked me what type bike I like and I emphasized that I like "FAT" tires.  So, he put me on a full-suspension, 27.5+ e-bike.  This let me experience:  an e-bike, 27.5,  plus size tires, current progressive trail geometry (slack head angle, really short stem, wide handlebar) and front AND rear suspension.  All of these are things I've been curious about.  

I would encourage everyone to go out and try an e-bike.  

This video I found last night sums up my experience perfectly.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fAtNi2Nozc&t=131s    The bike I rode was the FS version of the bike in the video.

Things I learned:

1)  I definately liked the plus tires and want them (probably 27.5) on my next bike.

2)  I loved the short stem-wide handlebar combination.

3)  I definately want a front suspension (I have arthritis in my shoulders and am getting more and more into off-road riding and my 2.10" tires don't provide enough cushion)

4)  Rear suspension wasn't a bad thing and I might consider it for my next bike.

5)  Schwalbe Rocket Ron tires handle and turn better than my Maxxis Torch 29's, which are basically slicks.  

6)  Riding an e-bike is the most fun I've ever had on a bicycle.

I'm not sure I would want an e-bike for trail riding but a nice, cushy e-Rivendell is something that should exist and something I would love to own.  

On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 1:19:23 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

I did the deed and you can see it here. I bought this kit used and attached to a hybrid, then decided I liked it so much that I wanted it on a nicer bike. It still needs wood fenders installed, and the wires need a better cover than that blue plastic I jury-rigged to avoid today's after-rain spray. Check it out, people who check out things!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/18972972@N08/shares/GR3Qjv

Joe "Electric Avenue" Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

[Joe Bernard]

Chris: Yes, I think most Rivs are excellent platforms for e-kits. Mark @ Rivendell joked that I should start doing conversions to sell to people. Hey Grant, gimme a little space in the shop and I'll get to work!
In the year since I started this thread I've de-electrified and sold that frame - it was a smidge too small - and now have this CLEM L with a Bafang BBS02 mid-drive. It's nifty!

https://goo.gl/photos/HqvPx24LBJhmVpjv9

Joe Bernard
Vallejo CA.