Roadeo Press on BikeRadar.com
CycloFiend
http://tinyurl.com/roadeo-review01
--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net
Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes
Esteban
Esteban
San Diego, Calif.
On Aug 27, 9:40 am, CycloFiend <cyclofi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Nice little Q&A with Grant Article by Gary Boulanger
>
> http://tinyurl.com/roadeo-review01
>
> --
> Jim Edgar
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com
R Gonet
J. Burkhalter
times and cutting off a mullet."
hilarious.
and here's to "no design compromises to keep the peace".
-Jay
Denver, CO
On Aug 27, 10:40 am, CycloFiend <cyclofi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Nice little Q&A with Grant Article by Gary Boulanger
>
> http://tinyurl.com/roadeo-review01
>
> --
> Jim Edgar
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com
David Estes
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/first-ride-rivendell-bombadil-19039
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/grant-petersen-rivendell-bicycle-works-11523
DE
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym." ~Bill Nye, scientist guy
JoelMatthews
Eddy Merckx as it does not have down tube shifter braze ons. Per Mark
this is not an option either.
Too bad, as I have a store of older race parts I would like to put on
a frame with faster angles and lighter tubing but can nevertheless
accommodate tires like the 35mm Schwalbe Kojak.
So that means either my next custom build project or maybe I can
convince Riv to sell me an unpainted frame and fork.
On Aug 27, 11:40 am, CycloFiend <cyclofi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Nice little Q&A with Grant Article by Gary Boulanger
>
> http://tinyurl.com/roadeo-review01
>
> --
> Jim Edgar
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com
Seth Vidal
>
> Well, it is not exactly like the bikes raced by Jacques Anquetil and
> Eddy Merckx as it does not have down tube shifter braze ons. Per Mark
> this is not an option either.
>
> Too bad, as I have a store of older race parts I would like to put on
> a frame with faster angles and lighter tubing but can nevertheless
> accommodate tires like the 35mm Schwalbe Kojak.
>
> So that means either my next custom build project or maybe I can
> convince Riv to sell me an unpainted frame and fork.
Doesn't the surly pacer take downtube shifters and won't it accomodate
35mm tires? Sure seems like it might. Now, I know the surly is not
nearly as light as the roadeo will be but it's not TERRIBLE afaict.
-sv
Mike
bummer. I hope they change their mind about that.
--mike
JoelMatthews
while. Lack of DT shifters among the new frames is unfortunately
almost across the board.
As Seth points out, DT are available on the Surly Pacer. Looks like a
nice frame but maybe too much a yeoman effort to match with the
antique Italian and French racing parts I am hoping to use.
I have checked out a couple of old Colnago, Masi, DeRosa and even a
CIOCC frame as possible rebuild candidates. None appeared to be able
to take a 35 mm tire.
Bill Connell
The Pacer is a pretty good option, but maxes out at 32mm tires, and
IIRC, it's a tight squeeze, depending on the brand.
--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN
Bruce
JoelMatthews
However, I have two lovely NOS sets of Simplex braze on dt levers with
the sunburst (the older, harder to get in good NOS condition Simplex
levers), an NOS Simplex white plastic braze on set and two beautiful
NOS Campy Record braze on lever sets.
I readily admit we are going into persnickity parts collector
territory here, but I really would like to have a bike where I could
rotate use of some of those lovely old parts
Maybe if I had some swell clamp on sets I would feel differently.
Real nice NOS clamp on shifters are far and few between, however. I
have been actively collecting for six years now and can only remember
one or two being offered for sale.
Besides, it would look kind of odd to have such a lovely frame with
unused cable routers above a clamp on shifter.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jim Cloud
reflective of my own opinion. It seems strange to me that Grant, who
was always an exponent of not using shifting components that required
"system compatibility" has agreed to spec the Roadeo so that its braze-
on's are only really useful with a shift integrated (e.g. Shimano)
system.
I also find it perplexing that Rivendell, apparently, will not
accommodate a customer request to have downtube shifter bosses on the
frame. This is not a cheap bicycle, $2,000 is a good chunk of
change. Perhaps this lack of flexibility is reflective of what
Waterford is willing to accept.
Finally, having only white available as a standard color (with an
upcharge of $300.00 for another color), strikes me as rather like
Henry Ford's options for the model T (any color available, as long as
it was black).
Jim
Jim Cloud
changed the previous statement pertaining to color choices.
Apparently any color that complements cream accents is now acceptable.
Jim
JoelMatthews
> Waterford is willing to accept.
frame offered with DT braze ons is the (actually rather attractive)
Hetchins Swallow Tribute touring bike. None of the Waterford road
racing bikes have DT braze ons. GP's write up said he put more of the
design specs in Waterford's hands because he was trying to meet a
specific weight total. Maybe Waterford believes accommodating DT
braze ons adds too much weight.
> Finally, having only white available as a standard color (with an
> upcharge of $300.00 for another color), strikes me as rather like
> Henry Ford's options for the model T (any color available, as long as
> it was black).
I do not mind, as the stock Roadeo scheme is close to the Trek 959,
the bike I dreamed about owning during my High School days.
Mike
this I'd go with Mercian.
Eric
JoelMatthews
> this I'd go with Mercian.
than a Roadeo. The Audax Special looks nice as well. Although if I
am reading the specs correctly, it will not accommodate a 35 mm tire.
I really like following Brad's blog over at Capricorn bikes. He may
be a good choice as well.
JoelMatthews
> http://campyonly.com/images/mystuff/2006/cinelli_6-10-06/IMG_0224_100...
> --Eric Norris
> Sent from my iPhone 3G*S*
>
>
>
>
> > Aren't band attached down tube mounts available? IIRC, many early
> > steel frames had cable guides and bottle holders attached by wrap
> > around bands, not braze ons, so this would not be that unusual.
>
> > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:48 AM,
> > JoelMatthews<joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > >> Well, it is not exactly like the bikes raced by Jacques Anquetil
> > and
Horace
clamp-on downtube shifters, they probably won't work because most
steel downtubes these days use 1 1/4" tubing rather than 1 1/8".
The Soma Stanyan will take a 32mm tire, and has downtube shifter
mounts (and lugs!). Comes in any color you want, as long as it's
black.
http://somafab.com/stanyan.html
I have a Guerciotti from around 1990, and it just barely fits 28mm
tires, due to the really short chainstays. Its geometry was pretty
typical for that time period. It was rare to see racing bikes sporting
tires wider than 28.
Horace.
Bill Connell
>
>> I'm sure the Roadeo will be a great bike but I think for a bike like
>> this I'd go with Mercian.
>
> than a Roadeo. The Audax Special looks nice as well. Although if I
> am reading the specs correctly, it will not accommodate a 35 mm tire.
>
> I really like following Brad's blog over at Capricorn bikes. He may
> be a good choice as well.
Brad's a nice guy and local to me. I have seen a few of his frames in
person, really nice work.
Bill Connell
>
> I'm not in the market for another bike, so any comments are simply
> reflective of my own opinion. It seems strange to me that Grant, who
> was always an exponent of not using shifting components that required
> "system compatibility" has agreed to spec the Roadeo so that its braze-
> on's are only really useful with a shift integrated (e.g. Shimano)
> system.
>
> I also find it perplexing that Rivendell, apparently, will not
> accommodate a customer request to have downtube shifter bosses on the
> frame. This is not a cheap bicycle, $2,000 is a good chunk of
> change. Perhaps this lack of flexibility is reflective of what
> Waterford is willing to accept.
I'll bet the vast majority of Rivendells sold go out with bar-end
shifters, so that's presumably the target. It seems like an odd choice
to me though, i don't understand the big drawback to using the Shimano
cable stops for those not using downtube shifters.
It IS a lot of money for a frame, but i'm sure the price is still
reflective of a production line setup with no custom changes. From the
business column of the early Readers, it sounds like Rivendell and
Waterford had trouble with the early frame runs because of an
increasing number of requests for custom tweaks. The best option is
probably to get an unpainted frame and have a local framebuilder swap
out the mounts for you.
Steve Palincsar
> I'm not in the market for another bike, so any comments are simply
> reflective of my own opinion. It seems strange to me that Grant, who
> was always an exponent of not using shifting components that required
> "system compatibility" has agreed to spec the Roadeo so that its braze-
> on's are only really useful with a shift integrated (e.g. Shimano)
> system.
They won't work with bar end shifters?
> I also find it perplexing that Rivendell, apparently, will not
> accommodate a customer request to have downtube shifter bosses on the
> frame. This is not a cheap bicycle, $2,000 is a good chunk of
> change. Perhaps this lack of flexibility is reflective of what
> Waterford is willing to accept.
This is supposed to be a production bike, not a custom. That pretty
much precludes custom braze-ons, doesn't it? Unless, of course, they're
to be done post-production, the way I had the rack mounts relocated on
my Saluki to fit the preferred location for the Berthoud front rack.
>
> Finally, having only white available as a standard color (with an
> upcharge of $300.00 for another color), strikes me as rather like
> Henry Ford's options for the model T (any color available, as long as
> it was black).
Again, doesn't that match the realities of production processing?
Doug Van Cleve
Three things about this thread are jumping out at me. Other than both being steel road bikes, there isn't much similarity between the Pacer and the Roadeo (no offense intended to Seth :^). I am 99% sure the Roadeo will take a much bigger tire, unless the Pacer has changed (it works with short reach brakes at the bottom of the slot or "standard" reach at the top of the slot). Tig'ed in Taiwan of average butted steel vs. brazed in Wisconsin of much better than average steel is a HUGE difference. Next, the Roadeo is "our answer to speedy carbon road bikes". What percent of recently sold "speedy carbon road bikes" don't have integrated shifting of some sort? This isn't a Rambouillet replacement. Lastly, you don't shop RBW bikes because they cheaper than alternatives (not including the Sam Hillborne/Betty Foy/Yves Gomez) or just because they're lugged. You buy them because you like RBW and/or GP's designs...
Whew!
Doug
Jim Cloud
produced in a facility that still requires many hand operations by a
skilled craftman. These operations, I suspect, do not involve much
that would be common with a production operation in a modern factory
with robot welding, etc. Surely, the total yearly production of
frames by Waterford must be miniscule compared to a real factory
operation.
If you look at some of the options available on Waterford's own
models, for example: http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricelist.php?newstype=14seriesO.
there are many options available. Again, I still can't see why there
could not be more flexibility for the Roadeo model options. As I
stated at the outset, I'm not in the market, however if I was I'd
expect something more accommodating for a $2,000 frame.
Jim
Doug Van Cleve
Places like W'ford do both batch production and truly custom one-at-a-time builds as well. I am pretty sure the Roadeo and probably anything RBW has built there is done in batches. I read a lot of framebuilder stuff on the web and batches are much faster and easier, therefore frames that are batch built can be priced lower. Changes that seem minor negate those savings...
Doug
J. Douglas Way
Thought I'd delurk and put my 2 cents in about the Roadeo. I had the
pleasure of visiting RBWHQ&L a few weeks ago after a business trip to
the San Jose area. It turned out that Mark at Riv had just assembled
the Roadeo so it was a great opportunity for me since I am in the market
for a "go fast" steel bike to replace my Ti frame with carbon fork,
etc. Even the prototype frame is quite beautiful in person. I rode the
55 cm prototype and when I got home I put a deposit on a 59 cm frame.
My PBH is 87 cm. I'll be moving a Campy Ergo 9 triple group to the
Roadeo so the lack of DT shifter bosses isn't an issue with me. I'd
been considering getting a Waterford RS-22 but the Grant design/handling
turned out to be the decisive factor.
BTW, my wife and I had a wonderful afternoon at Riv. Highly
recommended! We borrowed a couple of bikes (AHH and Sam H.) and road to
the base of Mt. Diablo. Will do the climb next time, ;-). Several
members of the Riv staff were very generous with their time (Mark,
Keven, Dave) and we greatly appreciate it.
Doug Way
Boulder, CO
CycloFiend wrote:
> Nice little Q&A with Grant Article by Gary Boulanger
>
> http://tinyurl.com/roadeo-review01
>
>
>
--
*******************************************************************
J. Douglas Way, Professor
Chemical Engineering Dept., Colorado School of Mines
1500 Illinois Street, Golden, CO 80401-7887 USA
Phone: 303-273-3519 Fax: 303-273-3730 Email: dw...@mines.edu
http://chemeng.mines.edu/faculty/dway/
*******************************************************************
Steve Palincsar
> Howdy folks.
>
> Three things about this thread are jumping out at me. Other than both
> being steel road bikes, there isn't much similarity between the Pacer
> and the Roadeo (no offense intended to Seth :^). I am 99% sure the
> Roadeo will take a much bigger tire, unless the Pacer has changed (it
> works with short reach brakes at the bottom of the slot or "standard"
> reach at the top of the slot). Tig'ed in Taiwan of average butted
> steel vs. brazed in Wisconsin of much better than average steel is a
> HUGE difference. Next, the Roadeo is "our answer to speedy carbon
> road bikes". What percent of recently sold "speedy carbon road bikes"
> don't have integrated shifting of some sort? This isn't a Rambouillet
> replacement. Lastly, you don't shop RBW bikes because they cheaper
> than alternatives (not including the Sam Hillborne/Betty Foy/Yves
> Gomez) or just because they're lugged. You buy them because you like
> RBW and/or GP's designs...
>
> Whew!
Excellent points, all.
Steve Palincsar
> Steve, I think the term production is a little strained for bicycles
> produced in a facility that still requires many hand operations by a
> skilled craftman. These operations, I suspect, do not involve much
> that would be common with a production operation in a modern factory
> with robot welding, etc. Surely, the total yearly production of
> frames by Waterford must be miniscule compared to a real factory
> operation.
There's robot welders/mass production, and then there's production in
the sense of how Toyo or Santana operate. Let's set the jigs to make 59
cm frames. Let's cut tubes to make 20 59cm, and let's braze them up.
Now let's reset and make some 56s. And so on. Where in there is the
opportunity to add some special braze-ons for some individual customer?
Nowhere that I can see.
If you want a bespoke frame, Riv has customs for that.
> If you look at some of the options available on Waterford's own
> models, for example: http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricelist.php?newstype=14seriesO.
> there are many options available. Again, I still can't see why there
> could not be more flexibility for the Roadeo model options.
Those are customs, right? And not to put too fine a point on it, just
because you can't see why there can't be more flexibility doesn't mean
there isn't a valid reason.
> As I
> stated at the outset, I'm not in the market, however if I was I'd
> expect something more accommodating for a $2,000 frame.
You can get a Roland De La Santa custom for two thousand bucks, too.
I'd suggest that would be a much better fit for you, if you find
yourself in the market. Besides, nobody would mock the name, as they
surely will with this one.
Ryan Watson
all had d/t shifter mounts. So they do know how to do it!
Ryan
Dustin Sharp
Dustin Sharp
the cost of the production Riv is now only slightly less than many full
customs. So if there isn't a tiny bit of flexibility on Riv's part, I would
think many potential buyers will be tempted to spend just a little more to
get a bike exactly as they want it by going full custom.
In other words, it was one thing to settle for a color you didn't quite like
or imperfect braze-ons when a f&f were $1500 or less, but at $2000 it's a
different game and set of mental calculations for the buyer.
> From: Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
> Reply-To: <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:47:32 -0400
> To: <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Roadeo Press on BikeRadar.com
>
>
JoelMatthews
as the Roadeo is so close to a bike I have in mind - even the stock
colors - but for one missing option. We dt people want in on the fun.
JoelMatthews
> all had d/t shifter mounts. So they do know how to do it!
I am guessing no option on the Roadeo and it would appear on
Waterford's own stock models (unless I am missing something on their
web site) has something to do with Steve's point about setting up the
jigs and all.
Possibly d/t mounts take some additional set up - which means time -
which means money.
On Aug 28, 5:53 pm, Ryan Watson <rswat...@nyx.net> wrote:
> Waterford makes the Boulder Bicycles frames and the three I've seen
> all had d/t shifter mounts. So they do know how to do it!
>
> Ryan
>
JoelMatthews
> >http://chemeng.mines.edu/faculty/dway/
> > *******************************************************************
fiddlr40
It's a little small for me but still a very sweet bike. Light, nimble,
and tracks steady. It rides a lot like my Legolas 59, but even with a
Brooks saddle it is noticeably lighter to lift. If I hadn't bought one
of the last Legolas', I'd get one of these.
jim mather
wc ca
Dan Abelson
> Waterford makes the Boulder Bicycles frames and the three I've seen
> all had d/t shifter mounts. So they do know how to do it!
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
cost saving measure, as this isn't intended to be a budget frame. I
suspect that the primary reason is the dt bosses add weight, and that
there isn't enough demand for dt shifters to justify the extra couple
ounces or whatever that would make it harder to acheive the sub-4lb
weight target. If this is indeed a "club racer", then most people who
get one will probably want to use some type of integrated shifting/
braking levers. It doesn't seem to me that Grant wants this bike to be
seen as some retro/throwback rig that folks are gonna want to equip
with 40-year-old parts. Rather the goal seems to be: let's show that a
modern lugged steel frame can hold its own against the techno-whiz
frames.
Ryan Watson
within arms reach for a handy "adjust on the fly" when the shifting
goes a bit off.
Ryan
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Jim
On Aug 28, 9:12 pm, Ryan Watson <rswat...@nyx.net> wrote:
> Even running STI, I'd want DT bosses! It gives you barrel adjusters
> within arms reach for a handy "adjust on the fly" when the shifting
> goes a bit off.
>
> Ryan
>
JoelMatthews
> seen as some retro/throwback rig that folks are gonna want to equip
> with 40-year-old parts. Rather the goal seems to be: let's show that a
> modern lugged steel frame can hold its own against the techno-whiz
> frames.
Seriously though, I suspect this (and set up costs) to be the
culprit. GP's write up said he really had to sweat the weight. D/t
mounts are surprisingly heavy little buggers.
On Aug 28, 9:07 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
JoelMatthews
offer d/t mounts as an option on their site, however.
On Aug 28, 8:55 pm, Dan Abelson <abelson....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Waterford makes the Boulder Bicycles frames and the three I've seen
> > > all had d/t shifter mounts. So they do know how to do it!
>
> The Gunnar Sport also made by Waterford has DT shifter mounts. I think
> Waterford will make any bike with DT mounts since they are all customs.
Bill M.
most W'fords may be that 'modern' DT's have short butted sections to
save some more weight. That would put the shifter boss on the thinner
belly of the tube, where the heat of brazing could weaken the tube a
bit too much for comfort. IIRC, Grant touted the custom 753 tubes of
the original Road Std. as having a long enough DT butt to make sure
the shifter bosses were on the thick part of the tube.
IMO, for a bike that's intended to be a modern club sport mount, DT
shifters would be superfluous. It's all about brifters out there, and
bar ends will still work for those who insist on friction
compatibility. But that's just me - I have two bikes with Ergos,
three with bar ends, one with Grip Shifts (recumbent), and none with
DT levers.
Bill
J. Burkhalter
On Aug 28, 8:07 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
> cost saving measure, as this isn't intended to be a budget frame. I
> suspect that the primary reason is the dt bosses add weight, and that
> there isn't enough demand for dt shifters to justify the extra couple
> ounces or whatever that would make it harder to acheive the sub-4lb
> weight target. If this is indeed a "club racer", then most people who
> get one will probably want to use some type of integrated shifting/
> braking levers. It doesn't seem to me that Grant wants this bike to be
> seen as some retro/throwback rig that folks are gonna want to equip
> with 40-year-old parts. Rather the goal seems to be: let's show that a
> modern lugged steel frame can hold its own against the techno-whiz
> frames.
-Jay
grant
to carbon bikes. It is specifically and intentionally from conception
to production a club-rider's bike. I know it's easy to see the steel
and lugs and think "Ahhhh, Bob Jackson-ish" or "Just like my old
Raleigh Competition," but those aren't the target with this one.
About 98% of club riders don't ride downtube shifters, and this is a
club-rider's bike.
Another thing is that with our higher-bar bikes and our up-sizing, the
dt shifters are much lower down and less accessible than they are with
a low-bar bike.
The other thing is the thin tubing. It's better to keep the footprint
smaller and closer to the lug so the thinner tubing is left more
alone. DT weigh more and require more heat to braze on in a thinner
part of the tube.
As for Wford's influence--this is our bike. It is an ongoing thorn of
sorts that we don't hide our builders, and then our bikes are thought
of as their bikes. If we want the DT shifters, we can get them---but
for the reasons above, we don't want them.
However--if anybody on this list wants the bike with DT shifters, we
will use a different down tube and do that for a $50 upcharge. The
upcharge isn't the pure, physical price of the shifter bosses. That's
about $17. But then we round the bases to reduce the stress riser; and
that's labor. And then there's the special handling of the different
tube. Anybody who has worked in a shop knows that setting up a machine
for a five-minute operation can take 40 minutes; and that introducing
exceptions increases the risk of a screw up. Our cost on this is about
$120, but we'll split that cost and charge just $60.
I stll wouldn't recommend it. I know DT shifters are fine, but they
aren't a perfect fit with the concept of this particular bike. Still,
we can do them.
We've worked a lot on the Roadeo, and that work disappears as soon as
the bike shows up. Nothing on the frame landed their by default, and
nothing left off was overlooked. There are lots of forks in the road
that present two or three or four good options, but the bike has room
for only one.
Hey--the headbadge sample should be here in about 2 weeks. It's made
in Rhode Island, and is coming along pretty nicely!
Best,
Grant
David Estes
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym." ~Bill Nye, scientist guy
JoelMatthews
> shifters would be superfluous.
likely is what I am missing here. Bikes are my primary form of
transportation, I ride them to work, around town, for fun and on
vacation. I use components that work for me. I imagine clubs with
all the group dynamics and peer pressure make d/t a hard sell. Too
bad, as d/t shifters are an elegant simple solution. No one could
ever figure out how to command the kind of prices for them that
Shimano, SRAM, and Campy get for ergos. And that is all she wrote.
JoelMatthews
> Raleigh Competition," but those aren't the target with this one.
this topic.
The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the Roadeo was a
lighter bike but with longish chain stays that can finally accommodate
modern wide but low rolling resistance tires like the 35 Schwalbe
Kojak. Traditional race bikes - at least from the Merckx era on (my
first post is a response to an article saying the Roadeo is a shades
of Merckx bike) don't take tires much over 28mm. I have passed on
buying some very lovely classic Italian frames because they could not
take the tires I want to use.
Admittedly, I know very little about club racing dynamics, but I
expect the majority of people who buy the Roadeo will never use tires
wider than a 28. At least not when they are with the guys and gals at
the club. Brifters or no, the bike as used - the tires part anyway -
will wind up having more in the Bob Jackson-ish and old Raleigh
Competition than the design intended.
Steve Palincsar
> > IMO, for a bike that's intended to be a modern club sport mount, DT
> > shifters would be superfluous.
>
> As my last post on the topic, I will concede the club angle most
> likely is what I am missing here. Bikes are my primary form of
> transportation,
> I ride them to work, around town, for fun and on
> vacation. I use components that work for me. I imagine clubs with
> all the group dynamics and peer pressure make d/t a hard sell.
Most of the target audience has probably never used downtube shifters,
and even those who have done would probably find them inappropriate for
use in a pace line or peleton where everybody else is using brifters
because of the different way you shift -- less frequently, more surging
and falling behind, possibly even a little wobbling when you shift. I
think most of the target audience believes downtube shifters are simply
unsafe in a pace line [where everyone else has brifters].
> Too
> bad, as d/t shifters are an elegant simple solution.
the past. I have indexed downtube levers on my latest, a Kogswell P/R
set up as a porteur, and they're good in that application. They, along
with the inverse brake levers, let me use almost all of the handlebar,
and that goes a long way towards mitigating the hand pain issues I have
with city bikes and upright bars.
But on a road bike? Never. For that, I like bar end shifters and too
bad about the cables; function trumnps elegance.
PATRICK MOORE
Howdy folks.
Three things about this thread are jumping out at me. Other than both being steel road bikes, there isn't much similarity between the Pacer and the Roadeo (no offense intended to Seth :^). I am 99% sure the Roadeo will take a much bigger tire, unless the Pacer has changed (it works with short reach brakes at the bottom of the slot or "standard" reach at the top of the slot). Tig'ed in Taiwan of average butted steel vs. brazed in Wisconsin of much better than average steel is a HUGE difference. Next, the Roadeo is "our answer to speedy carbon road bikes". What percent of recently sold "speedy carbon road bikes" don't have integrated shifting of some sort? This isn't a Rambouillet replacement. Lastly, you don't shop RBW bikes because they cheaper than alternatives (not including the Sam Hillborne/Betty Foy/Yves Gomez) or just because they're lugged. You buy them because you like RBW and/or GP's designs...
Whew!
Doug
--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
Professional Resumes. Contact resumesp...@gmail.com
James Valiensi
Tim McNamara
On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:06 AM, JoelMatthews wrote:
> Admittedly, I know very little about club racing dynamics, but I
> expect the majority of people who buy the Roadeo will never use tires
> wider than a 28. At least not when they are with the guys and gals at
> the club. Brifters or no, the bike as used - the tires part anyway -
> will wind up having more in the Bob Jackson-ish and old Raleigh
> Competition than the design intended.
Club riders will generally be using 700 x 23. Frequently smaller.
At 120 PSI. It's just a fact of life in racing clubs. This is
target market that does not think like people who use 35 mm tires,
tweed bags and high bars. If you don't know anything about club
racing, you won't be able to look at this frame through the right lens.
And, BTW, it will be considered a heavyweight in the club market at
19.99 lbs. My friend Doug stopped by the racing LBS yesterday as
they were putting a new Scott CF bike out on the floor for sale. 15
lbs, out of the box with no modifications. My friend Steve rides a
prototype Hed CF bike, 60 cm and under 16 lbs. I am an oddball in
that crowd, riding a 19.75 lb Ritchey (the lightest road bike I have
ever owned).
Club racers are a different kettle of fish than the usual Riv rider.
Grant knows this market fairly well and this bike is clearly aimed
specifically at them.
JoelMatthews
> At 120 PSI. It's just a fact of life in racing clubs. This is
> target market that does not think like people who use 35 mm tires,
> tweed bags and high bars. If you don't know anything about club
> racing, you won't be able to look at this frame through the right lens.
simply accepting conventional wisdom that skinny high pressure are by
default faster? Common assumption to be sure, but no longer
universal. Jan Heine and other bicycle thinkers have argued that in
real road conditions, wider tires with high quality low resistance
rubber are faster than skinny tires.
I mention the Schwalbe Kojak above - decidedly not a tweed bag
(something I have never owned, btw) or high bar type of tire, in spite
of its wider dimensions.
You are correct I do not know anything about club racing (don't care
to, either). However, it seems rational to assume being fast is part
of the equation. Motorcycles race faster on wide slicks. So do many
types of race cars. There are those who suggest bicycles are not so
different. Maybe they are wrong. Seems to me the Roadeo affords an
opportunity to challenge convention.
As you say, doubtful many will try. More the pity, IMO.
Bill Connell
>
>> Club riders will generally be using 700 x 23. Frequently smaller.
>> At 120 PSI. It's just a fact of life in racing clubs. This is
>> target market that does not think like people who use 35 mm tires,
>> tweed bags and high bars. If you don't know anything about club
>> racing, you won't be able to look at this frame through the right lens.
>
> Topic drift, but isn't it possible this is a case where the club is
> simply accepting conventional wisdom that skinny high pressure are by
> default faster? Common assumption to be sure, but no longer
> universal. Jan Heine and other bicycle thinkers have argued that in
> real road conditions, wider tires with high quality low resistance
> rubber are faster than skinny tires.
Typical "club riders" are the ones defining conventional wisdom, along
with Bicycling and other media who make people want to ride fast like
the pros. This isn't a knock on them, it's just the fact; that's where
the industry money and advertising is. In general, they don't read
things like BQ or the Reader, because those mags aren't (in general)
about going fast. It seems that the Roadeo is carefully aimed at the
Venn diagram slice of riders who overlap those interests, along with
an appreciation of lugged frames, with the hopes for some wider
audience for the Rivendell ride and aesthetic qualities. It's a nice
bike, i'd love to see them show up on club rides around here.
--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN
Garth
DT shifters is likely a design decision, it's not as if there's a
shortage of DT shifters bosses is there?
The Irony is . . . why does the Waterford made Bomabadil have DT
shift bosses? ..... This kind of stops the thinking for a minute.
Who's gonna use DT shifters on a Bombadil? LOL!
If the Bombadil has them . . . I see no valid excuse for the Roadeo
not to have them then . . . . but it's their bike design and
prerogative to change things as they like . . . so there you go.
It doesn't mean it cannot be changed though in the future. . . or
just tell them you won't buy one unless it's changed if you really
need them. Adding clamp on shifters is silly. . . and this is one
area Riv has lost me . . . the love of clamp on stuff. Who buy a Riv
to clamp things on? Hey , does the Roadeo have a chain hanger?
cm
there is anything wrong with them, just that NO ONE on any club ride
that i have ever done or seen uses them. Lots of club riders today
have never even ridden DT's. I have only ridden with them once and
hated it-- what a dumb place to put the shifter! But I came of age
with integrated shifting. Along with that, if this bike is gonna have
any chance of being taken seriously in the club-rider world, IMO, it
CAN'T have them. I think what it comes down to, is that this is just a
different kind of bike from Riv, and something that we haven't seen
from them before-- and while this is surprising, I think Grant
explains it all pretty well. This is not your typical Riv.
Cheers!
cm
Big Paulie
Not having a deep background in bikes, I'm wondering what the pratical
differences are between the threaded and threadless options.
And, why is the threadless option 1", rather than the more common 1
1/8"?
Thanks,
Paul
Steve Palincsar
>
> Club riders will generally be using 700 x 23. Frequently smaller.
> At 120 PSI. It's just a fact of life in racing clubs. This is
> target market that does not think like people who use 35 mm tires,
> tweed bags and high bars. If you don't know anything about club
> racing, you won't be able to look at this frame through the right lens.
"Club riders" covers a lot of ground. I belong to two bicycle clubs;
when I go on a club ride that makes me a "club rider," doesn't it? But
I fit none of the stereotypes we're seeing bandied about in this
thread.
I think the members of the Serotta and V-Salon forums are a good fit for
the target market. They're mostly faster class riders; many race, much
higher percentage than in a typical bicycle club that's not a racing
team; many are industry insiders, and there are even a few pro racers.
Among this lot, the Hampsten Strada Bianca commands high respect. It's
intended for 25-35mm tires, with Grand Bois Cypres 28mm and Rivendell
Jack Brown 33.333 mm tires being singled out on their web site
http://www.hampsten.com/Bikes/GravelRoad/stradabianca.html
Quoting from the web site: "Designed like a 60s-era road race bike, our
Strada Bianca (“white road” in Italian) is intended for fatter
25-to-35mm tires – our favorites being the 28mm Gran Bois Cypres and
Rivendell’s 33.3mm Jack Brown tires. Fast on smooth pavement but
relaxed-yet-tough when the road turns to trail, cobbles, gravel, or
dirt.
"Wearing fenders – even carrying a light load - this bike does it all.
We also include a great carbon fork from Wound Up designed for
57mm-reach calipers that fits fat tires or fenders just fine."
Among this set, if you showed up on a club ride with a Strada Bianca,
people would drool all over it, and there'd be universal acclaim.
> Club racers are a different kettle of fish than the usual Riv rider.
> Grant knows this market fairly well and this bike is clearly aimed
> specifically at them.
That's for sure.
Doug Van Cleve
IMHO the practical differences between quill and threadless are pretty minimal as long as the steerer isn't cut too short on a threadless bike. The reason to go with 1" threadless is so that the frame can be the same. 1" is the normal quill fork diameter and it is easy to get a shim that allows any threadless stem to work on a 1" fork...
Doug
Phil Brown
On Aug 28, 2:46 pm, Bill Connell <bconn...@gmail.com> wrote:
The best option is
> probably to get an unpainted frame and have a local framebuilder swap
> out the mounts for you.--
> St. Paul, MN
frame. 95% of what people think a "good bike" is, is paint. Bad
paint, bad bike.
I'm shocked that Riv sells the clear powder coated bikes. Big chance
of a bad paint job.
Phil Brown
CycloFiend
I'm personally really drawn to the clear powder coat finish. I've always
like that idea, as it shows all of the craft which went into the frame. On
the Rivendells, it's pretty stunning to see the consistency of the brazing
material around the lugs - it's like a natural "outlining" that folks put on
their lugged frames. On GP's Hilsen that he rode at the last RBW weekend,
it even had gold decals, which created a really stunning presentation.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclofiend/507828696/
As for the "bad paint job" issue - I don't follow your point. If someone
wanted to repaint or repowdercoat the frameset, they'd still have to remove
the clear powdercoat first. If you have an unskilled painter do it,
certainly a bad result will follow. That's why the good ones get the money
they do. There was an article about Joe Bell in an older Reader which is
worth tracking down - it gives a sense of the attention that goes into
prepping a frame for the paint layer.
- Jim
--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net
Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
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"Steel's what you want for a messenger bike. Weight. Big basket up front.
Not cardboard with some crazy aramid shit wrapped around it, weighs about as
much as a sandwich."
-- William Gibson, "Virtual Light"
Big Paulie
Tim McNamara
On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:26 AM, JoelMatthews wrote:
>
>> Club riders will generally be using 700 x 23. Frequently smaller.
>> At 120 PSI. It's just a fact of life in racing clubs. This is
>> target market that does not think like people who use 35 mm tires,
>> tweed bags and high bars. If you don't know anything about club
>> racing, you won't be able to look at this frame through the right
>> lens.
>
> Topic drift, but isn't it possible this is a case where the club is
> simply accepting conventional wisdom that skinny high pressure are by
> default faster?
Yes. Your point? :-)
> Common assumption to be sure, but no longer
> universal. Jan Heine and other bicycle thinkers have argued that in
> real road conditions, wider tires with high quality low resistance
> rubber are faster than skinny tires.
These do not convince the bike racer types. Most of them will have
never heard these arguments, which are mainly held in small out of
the way forums not frequented by USAC members. Until Lance is riding
28s on his race bike, the clubbers won't know. (Takes off "former
racing club president" hat).
> I mention the Schwalbe Kojak above - decidedly not a tweed bag
> (something I have never owned, btw) or high bar type of tire, in spite
> of its wider dimensions.
>
> You are correct I do not know anything about club racing (don't care
> to, either). However, it seems rational to assume being fast is part
> of the equation. Motorcycles race faster on wide slicks. So do many
> types of race cars. There are those who suggest bicycles are not so
> different. Maybe they are wrong. Seems to me the Roadeo affords an
> opportunity to challenge convention.
Maybe. Challenging the conventions is a sure way to limit sales,
unfortunately.
> As you say, doubtful many will try. More the pity, IMO.
Maybe. OTOH the Roadeo might afford an entree to these folks into a
wider (pun intended) world.
CycloFiend
> Not having a deep background in bikes, I'm wondering what the pratical
> differences are between the threaded and threadless options.
AASHTA -
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html#headset
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/headsets.html
>
> And, why is the threadless option 1", rather than the more common 1
> 1/8"?
Easier and simpler to use a 1/16" shim stock than to have two different
sizes of headtubes on a lugged frameset.
- J
Steve Palincsar
Well, but when I bought my Saluki it came from Toyo unpainted. Riv sent
it to the paint shop, but before that they had somebody move the rack
mounts from their standard location (set for Mark's Rack) to the
location preferred for the Berthoud front rack. So in some manner, it's
possible.
As for the shock value of unpainted frames, David Kirk routinely sends
photos of finished but unpainted frames to customers, and Johnny Coast
sent photos of my unpainted VO Randonneur frame to Chris for posting on
the VO blog. I've even seen photos that frame builders sent to
customers of the frame in the processing of being brazed, with the flux
still on the joints.
CycloFiend
>
>
> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:06 AM, JoelMatthews wrote:
>
>> Admittedly, I know very little about club racing dynamics, but I
>> expect the majority of people who buy the Roadeo will never use tires
>> wider than a 28. At least not when they are with the guys and gals at
>> the club. Brifters or no, the bike as used - the tires part anyway -
>> will wind up having more in the Bob Jackson-ish and old Raleigh
>> Competition than the design intended.
>
>
> Club riders will generally be using 700 x 23. Frequently smaller.
> At 120 PSI. It's just a fact of life in racing clubs. This is
> target market that does not think like people who use 35 mm tires,
> tweed bags and high bars. If you don't know anything about club
> racing, you won't be able to look at this frame through the right lens.
I think that's starting to change. I've had a couple conversations with
folks when I'm out on the Hilsen, rolling along fat and happy on my 32/33's
while they clatter and bang away on 23's. There have been some articles in
the race crowd about using larger volume tires, and I'm seeing a few MCRB's
with 25's and 28's - They are certainly not the majority, but 2 or 3 years
ago you wouldn't see anything but the thin stuff.
On the roads around these parts, the two times that I consistently either
gain distance upon or catch up with folks on the Race Modeled Road Bikes
(RMRB) is when we hit uneven pavement (well, that and descending). They
look at the Jack Browns and you can see the wheels turning.
- Jim
--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net
Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes
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"Then I sat up, wiped the water out of my eyes, and looked at my bike, and
just like that I knew it was dead"
-- Robert McCammon, "Boy's Life"
Steve Palincsar
> I think that's starting to change. I've had a couple conversations with
> folks when I'm out on the Hilsen, rolling along fat and happy on my 32/33's
> while they clatter and bang away on 23's. There have been some articles in
> the race crowd about using larger volume tires, and I'm seeing a few MCRB's
> with 25's and 28's - They are certainly not the majority, but 2 or 3 years
> ago you wouldn't see anything but the thin stuff.
The fact that somebody who is widely respected in club-racing circles
like Steve Hampsten has been very vocal in his praise of the 33.333 Jack
Brown tire certainly does not hurt the cause. The influence of
cyclocross should also not be lightly dismissed, since many hard-core
roadies also participate in that sport.
CycloFiend
A number of weeks ago, I was riding home. A guy in team-derivative kit on a
MCRB caught up to me and we chatted a bit. He complemented the Hilsen, then
asked what year it was. I thought for a second, then replied, "It's an
aught-eight." (Thanks once again to Gino for coining this response.) He did
a true Roger Rabbit Rubbery Head Shake and said, "Wha? This year?"
I had to admit that technically, it was _last_ year.
But, the point of this tale is that it turned out that the reason he thought
the frame was much, much older was that I was running "those old-time
shifters."
By which term (though it did make me think of the Hansen brothers' "Old Time
Hockey!" cry) he meant my Silver Barends. He literally didn't think they
worked, and that I was running them for some sort of statement.
I tried to impress upon him that a strong, simple design doesn't go out of
style, but think he might have believed I was also wearing tinfoil under my
helmet.
My vague point is that to most of us, the logical jump from barends to DT
shifters isn't that large a leap. But, we're kind of unique in that
respect.
- Jim
--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net
Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes
Your Photos are needed! - http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines
"I thought the idea was to waste the rest of our lives together.."
-- Cyril, "Breaking Away"
Steve Palincsar
> By which term (though it did make me think of the Hansen brothers' "Old Time
> Hockey!" cry) he meant my Silver Barends. He literally didn't think they
> worked, and that I was running them for some sort of statement.
>
> I tried to impress upon him that a strong, simple design doesn't go out of
> style, but think he might have believed I was also wearing tinfoil under my
> helmet.
>
> My vague point is that to most of us, the logical jump from barends to DT
> shifters isn't that large a leap. But, we're kind of unique in that
Especially not much of a leap for those who know that the Silver bar-end
shifter is actually a Sun Tour Sprint downtube shift lever mounted on a
Shimano bar end shifter pod (or reissued facsimilies).
David Estes
Bill Connell
> On the roads around these parts, the two times that I consistently either
> gain distance upon or catch up with folks on the Race Modeled Road Bikes
> (RMRB) is when we hit uneven pavement (well, that and descending). They
> look at the Jack Browns and you can see the wheels turning.
There has been more interest in countryside rides around here that
include both paved & gravel roads, which of course encourages wider
tires, and the bikes that can handle them. Mountain bikes aren't ideal
because of the distance and pavement portions, so there are typically
'cross bikes and Rivendells. A lot of us were already hip to wider
tires and the frames that work well with them, but we're bringing a
few new people into it too :-)
--
Steve Palincsar
We have rides like that here in metro Washington DC, too. Fauquier
County has a magnificent dirt road network that is the secret heart of
Virginia Hunt Country. Remember in Subterranean Homesick Blues, Dylan
says "Look out, kid, they keep it all hid" -- that's where it's hidden.
Just as you say, a mix of cyclocross, the odd occasional MTB and mostly
Rivendells. Many are 650B.
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Gatorskins (which I doubt would fare well in Heine's tests), and it is
plenty faster than my other bikes with fatter tires. It is also
lighter than my other bikes, partly because it has skinny tires. It
turns out that, in many ways, my fatter-tire bikes are more enjoyable
to ride (and get more miles as a result), but they are definitely not
faster, except maybe on gravel. If I want to go fast on pavement, I'd
choose the lightest tires I could find, which happen to be skinny.
The intriguing thing about the Roadeo is that it will take the 35s,
and it also has provisions for fenders, neither of which applies to my
Univega (25 mm is about max, and no fender eyelets/clearance). And
it's lighter than my Univega, which, btw, has dt shifters because
they're lighter than bar-ends...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/twowheelflight/3700511792/
Bill M.
adequately. 1-1/8" steerers are an accomodation for carbon steerers.
A 1" steel steerer is and has always been plenty strong, so 1-1/8"
would add needless weight to the frame and fork. There are 1" carbon
steerers out there, but I wouldn't ride one.
The practical differences are that threadless is easier to set up (IMO
- referring to adjusting the HS), is probably lighter overall, allows
easier handlebar and stem extension swaps because threadless stems are
mostly front-loading, and will accomodate 26 mm or 31.6 mm handlebars
(with the appropriate stems). A threaded / quill stem setup allows
faster changes of handlebar height (within the limits of the stem, and
we're talking seconds vs. minutes, not hours), and 'classic' looks.
I've got four bikes with threadless headsets and two with threaded and
I'd rather wrench on the threadless, but once rolling it doesn't
matter much.
Bill
Doug Van Cleve
Doug
Seth Vidal
Cyclery<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My one skinny-tire bike (an early 80s pink Univega) has 700x25 Conti
> Gatorskins (which I doubt would fare well in Heine's tests), and it is
> plenty faster than my other bikes with fatter tires. It is also
> lighter than my other bikes, partly because it has skinny tires. It
> turns out that, in many ways, my fatter-tire bikes are more enjoyable
> to ride (and get more miles as a result), but they are definitely not
> faster, except maybe on gravel. If I want to go fast on pavement, I'd
> choose the lightest tires I could find, which happen to be skinny.
>
> The intriguing thing about the Roadeo is that it will take the 35s,
> and it also has provisions for fenders, neither of which applies to my
> Univega (25 mm is about max, and no fender eyelets/clearance). And
> it's lighter than my Univega, which, btw, has dt shifters because
> they're lighter than bar-ends...
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/twowheelflight/3700511792/
>
I wonder if that metallic pink would be an acceptable head tube
contrast color by riv's standards.
:-D
-sv
RonLau
Just got a Della Santa, great road bike. If you order one, you can
ask for anything you want.
However, this is a Rodeo thread so I am not say anything more about
his work. If anyone is interested, google him and you can see what
kind of work he has done.
For example, he build Rivendell custom before.
Ron
On Aug 28, 3:39 pm, Steve Palincsar <palin...@his.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-08-28 at 15:10 -0700, Jim Cloud wrote:
> > Steve, I think the term production is a little strained for bicycles
> > produced in a facility that still requires many hand operations by a
> > skilled craftman. These operations, I suspect, do not involve much
> > that would be common with a production operation in a modern factory
> > with robot welding, etc. Surely, the total yearly production of
> > frames by Waterford must be miniscule compared to a real factory
> > operation.
>
> There's robot welders/mass production, and then there's production in
> the sense of how Toyo or Santana operate. Let's set the jigs to make 59
> cm frames. Let's cut tubes to make 20 59cm, and let's braze them up.
> Now let's reset and make some 56s. And so on. Where in there is the
> opportunity to add some special braze-ons for some individual customer?
> Nowhere that I can see.
>
> If you want a bespoke frame, Riv has customs for that.
>
> > If you look at some of the options available on Waterford's own
> > models, for example: http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricelist.php?newstype=14seriesO.
> > there are many options available. Again, I still can't see why there
> > could not be more flexibility for the Roadeo model options.
>
> Those are customs, right? And not to put too fine a point on it, just
> because you can't see why there can't be more flexibility doesn't mean
> there isn't a valid reason.
>
> > As I
> > stated at the outset, I'm not in the market, however if I was I'd
> > expect something more accommodating for a $2,000 frame.
>
> You can get a Roland De La Santa custom for two thousand bucks, too.
> I'd suggest that would be a much better fit for you, if you find
> yourself in the market. Besides, nobody would mock the name, as they
> surely will with this one.
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
adequately. 1-1/8" steerers are an accomodation for carbon steerers.
A 1" steel steerer is and has always been plenty strong, so 1-1/8"
would add needless weight to the frame and fork. There are 1" carbon
steerers out there, but I wouldn't ride one."
more to do with stiffness than strength. In my experience, lots of
bikes designed for 1-1/8" steerers were never intended for carbon
steerers, which is a limited market compared to the variety of bikes
that come standard with 1-1/8" steerers. Mountain bikes, touring
bikes, and most "hybrids" are unlikely to ever be equipped with carbon
steerers. Anyway, I abandoned my Atlantis as a loaded tourer (I still
think it's a great bike) because I felt that with a heavy front load,
while applying the brakes hard, especially going downhill, the front
end was unnervingly flexy. That sensation is not present on my custom
tourer, for which I requested a 1-1/8" threadless. A friend had a
similar experience with his otherwise gorgeous custom tourer, which he
solved by getting a Surly LHT. Of course, the stiffness difference
between a 1" and a 1-1/8" steerer is probably moot on a lightweight
road bike that isn't intended to be loaded.
I imagine the reason that Riv went 1" in this case has more to do with
keeping the threaded option and with using existing lugs (i.e. it
costs a lot to tool up for new lug molds) than it does with some
function/engineering/design consideration.
Tim McNamara
preferentially. Here's Mark Hickey's (Habanero Cycles, purveyor of
titanium frames) takes:
grant
smother anybody, and it's unlikely to happen, and wouldn't be good
news if it did. But what is "Roadeo"--a compromised-for-the-mass
market "house brand"? Ouch. A lot of stuff goes into the bike. I
understand that with a certain amount of accessibility comes a certain
amount of ... well, "disrespect" isn't the perfect word, but if I say
"the Rolex phenomenon," does that make sense? We're familiar enough to
reach out, but over time, the familiarity becomes a drawback, as old
customers use us as a stepping stone on the way to explore brands more
under the radar, and we don't have the advantage of the new or
something, Over time, though, the passion-or-conscientiousnes or
whatever--it isn't dwindling, and we get slightly better at certain
things. There are things I understand and know about frame design, and
frames in general, and structures, that I didn't know five years ago.
They're never talked about, because they're not of of a nature that's
easy to talk about without sounding out of touch with reality or what
matters, or the big picture. Is a frame any better if it has something
good that 's too small to notice but yet isn't superficial or purely
cosmetic? Or worse if it lacks it, but all the stuff that's active and
visible is equal? Sometimes, like usually, it feel like I'm working in
a dark closet in foreign land with a new language that doesn't work in
public. The revelations are so tiny, and are too tiny for prime time,
but they're really neat (from my perspective). It's frustrating to not
be able to express it, or to not have the confidence in my ability to,
without being misread.
The name Roadeo was intended to ID it as a road frame. I can see, and
we knew from the start, that it would not fly with everybody, but for
a fun and highly maneuverable road frame....hey, not bad. In a name-
mosaid that includes Felt or Giant or Specialized or Trek or Big Dummy
or Sir Velo....."Roadeo" will shouldn't stick out too sorely.
Besides--what would you expect from the company what brang you A.
Homer Hilsen, Yves Gomez, Betty Foy, Bombadil...?
Best to all,
G
Tim McNamara
On Aug 30, 2009, at 11:30 AM, grant wrote:
> There are things I understand and know about frame design, and
> frames in general, and structures, that I didn't know five years ago.
> They're never talked about, because they're not of of a nature that's
> easy to talk about without sounding out of touch with reality or what
> matters, or the big picture. Is a frame any better if it has something
> good that 's too small to notice but yet isn't superficial or purely
> cosmetic? Or worse if it lacks it, but all the stuff that's active and
> visible is equal? Sometimes, like usually, it feel like I'm working in
> a dark closet in foreign land with a new language that doesn't work in
> public. The revelations are so tiny, and are too tiny for prime time,
> but they're really neat (from my perspective). It's frustrating to not
> be able to express it, or to not have the confidence in my ability to,
> without being misread.
There's a video on YouTube of Norman and Jack Taylor brazing a frame;
Norman's voice over says "I've made 8,300 frames and I'm still
learning." I think it may be impossible to ever know everything
about a sophisticated craft like bike frame design. One can learn
the major points quickly, but the subtle ones take years.
Marty
Steve Palincsar
> Steve,
>
> Just got a Della Santa, great road bike. If you order one, you can
> ask for anything you want.
And if the subject is respect in the pace line, you can be sure that
hard-core race oriented roadies will know and respect Della Santa, just
as they know and respect Hampsten and Sachs.
David Estes
Tim mentioned a video. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMA8X5pk2kI
BPu...@aol.com
The name Roadeo was intended to ID it as a road frame. I can see, and
we knew from the start, that it would not fly with everybody
Mike
the Rings. I can live with the Roadeo name. I think naming their
mountain bike the Bombadill was about the most perfect name they ever
came up with. Outside of Rivendell my favorite frame names come from
Surly--Long Haul Trucker and Big Dummy.
David Estes
Seth Vidal
> Peter Jackson's lawyers are onto 'em now... :-(
>
I wonder how terry pratchett's lawyers are?
obviously a light and quick road bike would be the "rincewind".
and a mountain bike named "nobby nobbs" would just make sense.
An all black on black with silver components could be "veternari"
and I think the single speed would make sense as the "sam vimes"
okay, I'm done now.
-sv
RonaTD
On Aug 28, 9:33 pm, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
> Seriously though, I suspect this (and set up costs) to be the
> culprit. GP's write up said he really had to sweat the weight. D/t
> mounts are surprisingly heavy little buggers.
? I happen to have one of those buggers right here, sitting on a
postal scale. It's 5 grams. Just a guess, the cable stop braze-ons
might be 1 or 2 grams apiece. So, net gain of 6-8 grams. I really
don't think that's the culprit.
BTW, since I know somebody will ask. The shimano DT adapter with
spring loaded barrel adjuster is fluctuating between 9 and 10 grams,
depending on how hard I hit the keyboard. I don't have a screw and
washer to go with it, and I'm too tired to go back to the basement, so
that will have to do.
Changing from cable stops to DT bosses means changing a fixture and
doing a slightly trickier braze. Unless things have changed
significantly since Heron days, that's enough to kill a Waterford
batch process.
Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI, pretty near Waterford
JimD
While this is all true, none of these bikes are a Rivendell.
I want a Roadeo because I want a Rivendell road bike.
The Rivendells I've test ridden or ride (Bleriot, Saluki,
Rambouillet, Bombadil, Romulus, and my custom) have all been great
bikes.
I'm expecting the Roadeo will be excellent.
For moi, it isn't so much about the model name as it is about the
ride and the atelier.
Rivendell keep creating great bikes and I want to support that.
-JimD
Shaun Meehan
Just as a matter of curiosity, I'm fairly new to the Rivendell cult (green Rambouillet), the name of the new bike (it who will not be named), seems to have caused some controversy. Like Grant said, you're not going to please everyone but has there ever been a similar controversy in naming a bike in the past? Not a biggie - just curious.Secondly, all this hoopla about building a sub 20 pound bike - I got my Rambouillet just under 20 pounds with Brooks, Nitto stuff, SPD pedals, but with stupid wheels (Grant's definition - not mine). So, how much lighter is this frame than the Rambouillet?BillLouisville, Ky
gunnara
now everything is different, the normal frames have become much more
expensive and the custom prices are still reasonable. Somewhere else
the entry prices might be lower, but with the lugs, the fancy
paintwork, the extra care about geometry and everything they are fine.
Anyway, for my dreambike i had to go custom, got my shifterbosses,
track dropouts, sloping toptube and everything - not from Rivendell
(but with many Rivendell parts and ideas), the things i wanted needed
fillet brazing, but if i really wanted these beautiful lugs a higher
toptube etc i'd just go custom, i even wouldn't have to live with a
name i dont't really like.
I'm 6'4'' and i'm really happy about having given i up completely to
find a frame that fits me, has everything i want etc.
A roadeo wouldn't fit me anyway...
On Aug 31, 4:51 pm, Shaun Meehan <meehan.sh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Bill Connell
> From what I've seen, whenever RBW introduces a new model there are a few who
> voice their displeasure with the chosen name. And some who even go so far as
> to say they won't buy the bike on account of the name (sometimes claiming
> they'd otherwise buy one for sure). Seems bizarre to me but I guess the name
> of the bike means a lot to some folks. I remember when the Saluki was
> introduced there were a few who said that they'd never buy the bike because
> it was a bad name, and they don't like dogs. Something like that anyway.
>
> I don't think I'd ever exclude a bike from consideration on account of what
> it's called (within reason of course... at one point I half expected Ibis to
> introduce the "FAW-Q" or something). I guess I kind of prefer names like the
> ones RBW, Surly, and others use as opposed to the generic "RB-1" or the
> like. But with the reaction to the names, one has to wonder if that wouldn't
> be a safer way to go though. Boring but safer.
I remember reading a review of a bike in Dirt Rag a while ago from a
guy building frames as SofaKing Bicycles.
Mike
Rivendell give you. It looks like they may be available by the end of
the year.
J. Douglas Way
I put a deposit on a 59 cm Roadeo about two weeks ago. I had the good
luck to be able to visit Riv and see the prototype before I put down the
deposit. Grant's interview on Bike Radar says that delivery is about
four months so maybe I'll have my frame (red trim color, threadless
fork) by the New Year.
Doug
Boulder, CO
Atlantis #406
*******************************************************************
J. Douglas Way, Professor
Chemical Engineering Dept., Colorado School of Mines
1500 Illinois Street, Golden, CO 80401-7887 USA
Phone: 303-273-3519 Fax: 303-273-3730 Email: dw...@mines.edu
http://chemeng.mines.edu/faculty/dway/
*******************************************************************
Z
From: gunnara <gun...@gmx.de>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:29:42 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Roadeo names, alternatives
Michael Gordon
available in 51 cm and 53 cm frame sizes. Anyone know the wheel size
for these smaller size frames?
Michael
Brian Hanson
Brian
Seattle
Bill M.
On Aug 31, 7:51 am, Shaun Meehan <meehan.sh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think I'd ever exclude a bike from consideration on account of what
> it's called (within reason of course... at one point I half expected Ibis to
> introduce the "FAW-Q" or something).
Along that line, I still believe the worst name in cycling is Alpha-
Q. Even worse than the faux-Finnish Hakkalugi.
Bill
David Estes
Wasn't it painted some sort of a nasty green as well?
DE