[RBW] 650B dead or alive?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured
into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
discussion of its own.

Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at
least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now
Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models, Kogswell
seems to be on an indefinite hiatus, and Rawland's new models have
been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc
brakes, 650B will still be an option).

To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the
27.5" wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific
rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim
and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all,
since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader. There are some
small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and
now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires
into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to
see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but
again, it was mostly of the MTB variety.

I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough
650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels
of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size
gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future
will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty
availability. I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
just in case.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[rcnute]

Scary! :) I wonder what the builders think/know?

Ryan

On May 11, 10:33 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

[Ken Mattina]

I agree with Jim that it's a good idea to stockpile 650b rims and tires in my basement.

 

 

I think that there's still new 650b bikes being introduced.  Don't forget about the Velo Orange Polyvalent.  Also I believe that the Longleaf P/R prototype will be arriving soon.

 

Ken

--
Where did the spring go?
Where did my hormones go?
Where did my energy go?
Where did my go go?
Where did the pleasure go?
Where did my hair go?

-- Ray Davies

[franklyn]

Soma does have at least one Mt bike model and its mixte uses 650b as
an option for smaller sizes. Soma is also introducing the 650b version
of its Express tires. Among enthusiasts, anecdotally I have heard
several getting a 650b custom, so 650b has gained some momentum in the
custom world.

I don't really think stockpiling now is necessary. Velocity seems to
be committed to continue to supply Synergy in that size (not to
mention the economical Twin Hollow), and now VO has one 650b rim at a
pretty affordable price.

Franklyn

> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsubscrib e...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Steve Palincsar]

In the world of computers, we call this FUD: the spreading of Fear,
Uncertainty and Doubt.

[Tim McNamara]

Malarkey.

It's a practical look at what the 650B market is today. It's a niche
and a darned tiny one at that. There are way more "29ers" out there,
a tire size that has had much faster acceptance and deeper market
penetration than the 650B resurgence sparked by Rivendell and Jan
Heine. Grant's and Jan's own markets are small, maybe 30,000 people
total (and with a lot of overlap), and only a fraction of those folks
have gone with 650B. A few non-Grant/non-Jan have gone with 650B
too. Google around on the web for 650B and it's pretty clear it hit
a peak over a year ago and has tailed off in terms of interest.

650B is a nice tire size, very useful for some applications, but has
failed to achieve the kind of critical mass necessary to be anything
more than a tiny niche. Now, as someone else has pointed out, that
may work fine for current users over the next decade or so thanks to
the Internet making niche markets much more viable than they used to
be. This is a good thing. But until Trek or Cannondale take on
650B- which they frankly aren't going to do without a compelling
reason- it's going to be a marginal place in the market. With $70
tires, making it also a niche populated only by the dedicated and
affluent.

[Steve Palincsar]

no, as I pointed out

> that
> may work fine for current users


> over the next decade or so

I didn't put a time limit on it

> thanks to
> the Internet making niche markets much more viable than they used to
> be. This is a good thing.

Indeed.

> But until Trek or Cannondale take on
> 650B- which they frankly aren't going to do without a compelling
> reason- it's going to be a marginal place in the market

And that's perfectly fine.

> . With $70
> tires, making it also a niche populated only by the dedicated and
> affluent.

650B tires are no more expensive than 700x23s. Tire prices have gone up
in the past few years. Your Pro3Race 23mm is a $60 tire these days, as
is the Hetre or the Pari Moto. You don't have to be all that affluent
to afford $60. It is, after all, not much more than 4 movie tickets,
less if you go to the concession stand.

Your point: 650B is not mass market. I agree. Jim's point is more like
"tremble in your boots, because its future is precarious" and that is
precisely FUD in a nutshell, containing fear, uncertainty and doubt.

We see FUD in the bicycling business all the time. A recent example:
now that Shimano's going to 10 spd on its MTB groups, some folks are
saying you'd better stockpile 9 spd cassettes, because 9 is now
officially obsolete. Some folks on the forums started beating the drum
about Campagnolo 10 as soon as the first 11 speed Campy groups came out.
And all you fans of mechanical shifting had better tremble in your
booties, too, because electric shifting is here and you know what that
means.

[JoelMatthews]

MTB 650B appears to be stable. I am somewhat concerned about 650B
road rim and tire availability. Fortunately, both items store well.

I am not concerned to the point where I will buy any old 650B rim set
or tire to hoard in a storage bin. But if I see a top quality
component on eBay, a bicycle on line outlet, or (less likely) a
bicycle shop, it makes sense to buy now rather than wait to see what
may be coming down the road.

On May 12, 12:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

If I was engaging in FUD, I would suggest stockpiling far more than a
couple pairs of tires. I don't think there's any reason not to get a
650B bike. I like 650B and am committed to selling 650B bikes. I'm
probably getting a 650B bike for my wife. But I think that the 650B
market is small enough that there is a better than average chance of
volatility.

In the bike business, there are very few big players. It's nice that
Velocity makes 650B rims, but Velocity isn't exactly a blue chip
corporation on which to depend for long-term stability. They are a
small outfit, and 650B rims are a small part of what they do. Even now
Velocity USA is out of stock on any given listed rim (650B or
otherwise) more often than not. Will they still be "committed" to 650B
in five years if the number of 650B bikes being sold shows signs of
decline? I wouldn't bet on it. That's why I think it makes sense to
squirrel away a pair of rims, just in case. If I'm wrong, you'll still
probably need the rims someday.

[JoelMatthews]

What would really help would be one or a group of the custom 650B
builders commissioning a run of quality rims much as Pacenti did with
the Pari-Motos. Jan Heine is doing this. It would be nice if there
were a few alternatives as well.

On May 12, 8:24 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[rswa...@me.com]

I always stockpile parts I like. 650B is no exception. I used to hoard my favorite 26" rims and tires, too. Grant said somewhere a while back: "if you find something you like, buy a lifetime supply because it will soon be discontinued or "improved"

Ryan

[David Faller]

Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!

[Bruce]

Except JBGs are 700 size rubber

---

From: David Faller <dfa...@charter.net>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?

Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!

[Bruce]

Wish I had gotten a spare original equipment wheel set for my 26" Rambouillet. Like the Romulus wheels now on closeout at RBW, only smaller. :(

---

From: "rswa...@me.com" <rswa...@me.com>
To: "rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com" <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:47:13 AM

Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?

I always stockpile parts I like. 650B is no exception. I used to hoard my favorite 26" rims and tires, too. Grant said somewhere a while back: "if you find something you like, buy a lifetime supply because it will soon be discontinued or "improved"

Ryan

[David Faller]

I was addressing Grant's quote about how things we like tend to get improved out of existence, that's all...

[James Valiensi]

Hey,
For rim brakes Velocity has at least two models out, Grand Bois has one, and VeloOrange has their version as well.

Grand Bois started getting this stuff made to support their 650B Clients in Japan.

I think 650B is here for a long while.

If you want more choices in the market, buy more 650B bikes and get your riding buddies on one too, as soon as Trek sees that they are loosing sales to 650B makers they have one model out, (It will be a carbon fiber frame with ugliest graphics/colors imaginable).

When the mainstream are on their 650B's I'll be looking for 700D...

Cheers!

James Valiensi, PE
Northridge, CA
H818.775.1847 M.818.585.1796

[Esteban]

Jim has a point. And a good view from a bike shop. At the same time,
650B stuff has long been available from abroad (Japan seems to have a
steady market, and France used to...). The Internets make scouring
the globe for a reliable supplier much easier. I imagine that someone
in the world would step in with a steady stream of 650B if things hit
the fan.

This being said, at the SDCBS, there was quite a lot of 650B road
content...

Esteban
San Diego, Calif.

On May 12, 7:13 am, David Faller <dfal...@charter.net> wrote:
> I was addressing Grant's quote about how things we like tend to get
> improved out of existence, that's all...
>
> On 5/12/2010 6:59 AM, Bruce wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Except JBGs are 700 size rubber
>

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* David Faller <dfal...@charter.net>
> > *To:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> > *Sent:* Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?

>
> > Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Bruce]

I have a 700D wheel set for the Saluki. Use it in the winter for training (w/590 tires. 587s are like hen's teeth).  Nice to know your 650B bike has some flexibility.

---

From: James Valiensi <vali...@mac.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 9:22:16 AM
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?

When the mainstream are on their 650B's I'll be looking for 700D...

Cheers!

[jinxed]

Although I had two 650b bikes that are now gone, I certainly was not
fearful of parts availability. But to be certain I never expected rims
and tires to be WIDELY available. I expected it to be a lesser 650c.
Unless your local bike shop specializes in tri bikes, they might have
a pair of tubes, and possibly a dusty tire. Having worked in bike
shops on and off for the last 15 years, it was always an item we
ordered in. Sometimes we had to search 3-4 suppliers before we found
what the customer wanted. I think the niche market is just that. It's
there, but more work is needed to attain entry and generally you pay
for the privilege.

The funny thing is, the bikes that use 650b are in comparison just as,
if not more exclusive. Let's hope they keep making the frames!

Jut random thoughts. Nothing more.

All that said...I have a set of 650b wheels/tires with no home! Chris
King / Dyad / Maxy Fasty. If you need to pile your stock let me know.

[Bill Connell]

But the basic point is valid, no matter the size. Wasn't there some
note not that long ago that the molds for the Roly-Poly tires was
wearing out and there was a question whether to replace it? Even in a
popular size, parts can be discontinued for various reasons, and it's
not often that a good product is resurrected once the original
manufacturer stops production.

I don't see Jim's post as FUD at all. It's pretty obvious that the
small number of companies who championed 650b 3-4 years ago no longer
have it as a top priority. That's fine, and it doesn't mean that the
size is abandoned, just maybe that it has peaked for the size of the
niche that it has. It seems well-enough established now that many
custom framebuilders would happily build one, even if none of the
mainstream players decide to join in.

Bill

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 9:13 AM, David Faller <dfa...@charter.net> wrote:
> I was addressing Grant's quote about how things we like tend to get improved
> out of existence, that's all...
>
> On 5/12/2010 6:59 AM, Bruce wrote:
>
> Except JBGs are 700 size rubber
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Faller <dfa...@charter.net>
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:52:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
>
> Then I'd better order two dozen Jack Brown greens ASAP!
>

--

Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN

[John McMurry]

On May 12, 1:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured
> into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
> discussion of its own.

It can be interesting to try to predict the future.

> Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at
> least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now
> Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models,

Not true: Betty Foys’ and Yves Gomez’ are 650b specific. Also, (and I
know Jim didn't say this) just because Rivendell tends to size the
wheel to the size of the frame on other models doesn't mean Rivendell
is losing interest in any particular wheel size.

> Kogswell
> seems to be on an indefinite hiatus,

That has little to do with 650b. As I understand it, Longleaf Cycles
plans to pickup that torch.

> and Rawland's new models have
> been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc
> brakes, 650B will still be an option).

As far as I know and as advertised on their website, Rawland's frames
are 650b specific. Showing the frame's versatility with 622 and 559mm
wheelsets at venues may be just that.

> To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the
> 27.5" wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific
> rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim
> and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all,
> since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader.

Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road
options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b.

> There are some
> small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and
> now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires
> into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to
> see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but
> again, it was mostly of the MTB variety.

Do small market products have to go mainstream or corporate in order
to maintain?

> I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough
> 650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels
> of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size
> gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future
> will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty
> availability.

It appears that some folks feel that for a product to continue to be
produced, that it must have exponential sales numbers from year to
year. While my economics classes are far, far behind me; I just don’t
see that as a necessity.

> I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
> stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
> just in case.

That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear.

John McMurry
Burlington, VT

[Rob Harrison]

My take, having just bought my first 650b bike, is that there will
always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of
freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them?

650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those
kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite
comfortable there.

And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62....

Rob in Seattle

On May 12, 2010, at 8:53 AM, John McMurry <johnm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to
>> stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
>> just in case.
>
> That is a nice suggestion, but it also sparks unwarranted fear.

[JoelMatthews]

> We can still get a nice range of freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them?

But Freewheels made up a much larger percentage of the market than
650B ever did.

The more apt comparison is VHS and Beta. You can still get both, but
VHS is much easier to find than Beta.

On May 12, 11:12 am, Rob Harrison <robha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My take, having just bought my first 650b bike, is that there will  
> always be *something* available. We can still get a nice range of  
> freewheels, what, 20 years after Trek stopped spec'ing them?
>
> 650b was always a niche market in a niche market. I've been in those  
> kinds of spaces my whole personal and professional life, and I'm quite  
> comfortable there.
>
> And hey, maybe we'll have a big article on 700c conversions in RR 62....
>
> Rob in Seattle
>

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

"Huh?! That must have been a very, very recent issue. 650b road
options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b."

No this was several years ago, when the Saluki/Wilbury/Glorius/Bleriot
650B bikes were first being discussed. Grant mentioned several 650B
tires apparently available at the time that I have never actually seen
in person (under the brands Michelin, Mitsuboshi, etc). Our 650B stock
and sales are limited to the same tires that Riv sells now, all of
which have been around for several years (CdlV, NS/MF, FR, a couple
Schwalbes). All have limited distribution channels and often spotty
availability. I hear the GB tires are wonderful, but the combination
of high price, low margin, and even lower sales volume means that it's
not something I plan to stock. I'm hopeful that the Pacenti tire will
be more feasible for me to have in stock (i.e. available through QBP),
but I haven't laid my hands on any yet. I'm not sure I'd describe this
as a set of options that has "blossomed". Seems to me that there is a
very small handful of people/companies (Grant, Jan, VO) who could
shift priorities in life, and the 650B supply would quickly get pretty
thin.

[NickBull]

Actually, when one of our VHS players broke, recently, I couldn't find
a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive
($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD.

Nick

[John McMurry]

On May 12, 12:46 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

<thill....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Huh?!  That must have been a very, very recent issue.  650b road
>> options have blossomed since the Riv Reader first mentioned 650b."
>
> No this was several years ago, when the Saluki/Wilbury/Glorius/Bleriot
> 650B bikes were first being discussed.

There are several scattered years between those frame discussions. In
my recollection, the Readers started seriously discussing 650b about 6
or 7 years ago.

> Grant mentioned several 650B
> tires apparently available at the time that I have never actually seen
> in person (under the brands Michelin, Mitsuboshi, etc).

About 6 years ago, this is what was generally available:

Schwalbe HS 159,
Mitsuboshi Trimline,
Panaracer Col de la Vie and,
Michelin Megamium.

> Our 650B stock
> and sales are limited to the same tires that Riv sells now, all of
> which have been around for several years (CdlV, NS/MF, FR, a couple
> Schwalbes). All have limited distribution channels and often spotty
> availability. I hear the GB tires are wonderful, but the combination
> of high price, low margin, and even lower sales volume means that it's
> not something I plan to stock.

Where our differences lie is probably due to the seats we sit in. As
a consumer, I needn't worry about stocking, margins, and volume,
whereas as a merchant, I would.

> I'm hopeful that the Pacenti tire will
> be more feasible for me to have in stock (i.e. available through QBP),
> but I haven't laid my hands on any yet.

I just got word my LBS's have them in hand. I hope to buy a pair this
week. I'd guess your shipment is near.

> I'm not sure I'd describe this
> as a set of options that has "blossomed".

No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now:

Schwalbe HS 159,
Schwalbe Marathon,
Panaracer Col de la Vie,
Sunlite Street Tire,
Panaracer Nifty Swifty,
Panaracer Maxy Fasty,
Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin,
Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress,
Grand Bois Cypres,
Grand Bois Ourson,
Grand Bois Hetre,
Pacenti Pari-Moto,
Nokian A10.

I'd think that quantitatively, that qualifies near a blossom.

> Seems to me that there is a
> very small handful of people/companies (Grant, Jan, VO) who could
> shift priorities in life, and the 650B supply would quickly get pretty
> thin.

Sure, Riv, Grand Bois, VO, Schwalbe, Pacenti, Panaracer, and
Continental could all simultaneously shift priorities, but that
doesn't change the demand. I'd bet somebody would seize that
opportunity.

[JoelMatthews]

> Actually, when one of our VHS players broke, recently, I couldn't find
> a replacement at Best Buy, Sears, or Target, except for more-expensive
> ($100) dual-purpose machines that combine tape and DVD.

I was thinking more the aftermarket. Just as there are many NOS or
otherwise workable freewheels available on eBay so to there are many
NOS VHS. You can find Beta aftermarket and you can find 650B
aftermarket. Depending what you want though, the look can take a lot
of effort.

To your point, however, there is at least one mainstream - IRdD -
company making freewheels and they are readily available.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[JoelMatthews]

> No? Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now:

To Jim's point, I recently was in the market for a 40 hole 650b rim.
I did not find any current makes. Fortunately, Jan Heine had one NOS
set of Mavic MA-1s he was willing to sell. Otherwise I would not have
been able to use the hubs I had in mind.

[John McMurry]

On May 12, 2:05 pm, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
> > No?  Here are the 584mm road tires consumers have available now:
>
> To Jim's point, I recently was in the market for a 40 hole 650b rim.
> I did not find any current makes.  

According to the original post, Jim's point is that the future of 650b
is uncertain due to his recent observations. That you can't find a 40-
hole, 650b rim is an entirely different point.

[Bruce]

Add the Continental Tour Ride also in 42mm and 54 mm

> Schwalbe HS 159,
> Schwalbe Marathon,
> Panaracer Col de la Vie,
> Sunlite Street Tire,
> Panaracer Nifty Swifty,
> Panaracer Maxy Fasty,
> Panaracer Fatty Rumpkin,
> Panaracer/SOMA New Xpress,
> Grand Bois Cypres,
> Grand Bois Ourson,
> Grand Bois Hetre,
> Pacenti Pari-Moto,
> Nokian A10.
>
> I

[JoelMatthews]

> According to the original post, Jim's point is that the future of 650b
> is uncertain due to his recent observations. That you can't find a 40-
> hole, 650b rim is an entirely different point.

Seems like we are splitting hairs here.

Certainly it underscores that 650b is not as well supported as other
wheel sizes, which is the take away I get from Jim's point.

And why I at least think is does make sense to buy a spare set of 650b
rims and tires that fit my long term plans as I come across them.

[Tim McNamara]

On May 12, 2010, at 8:47 AM, rswa...@me.com wrote:

> I always stockpile parts I like. 650B is no exception. I used to
> hoard my favorite 26" rims and tires, too. Grant said somewhere a
> while back: "if you find something you like, buy a lifetime supply
> because it will soon be discontinued or "improved"

Not specific to 650B at all, this is good advice. Time and again I
have found stuff I really like only to have it disappear, replaced by
the "new" and questionably "improved."

Tan wall Paselas. Nitto 175 bars. Sun Tour Superbe derailleurs.
Sanyo BB generators. Campionato Del Mundos (a buddy's preference,
there). Non-goofy looking cycling shoes. For a while, Brooks
saddles. Etc.

But, as others have pointed out, hooray for the interwebs creating an
opportunity for the like minded to make and sell products. Being a
niche user is much, much easier than it was ten years ago. You can
easily locate NOS or newly-made stuff.

[Lesli]

I own two custom 650b bikes. As a smaller rider, I chose this tire
format for the range of performance tires in the 28-38c range. 650c
tires were too skinny and I didn't like the kludgy feel of mtb "road"
tires.

It's a minority opinion, but I DO wish there were a few more options
in the narrow, "performance" range of 650b tires. Aside from the
Grand Bois Cypres, there are no options out there for 650b x 28 (or
narrower) tires. I'm wishing I had invested in a few more pairs of
Michelin Megamiums or Axial Raids before they disappeared off the
market. If anyone has a spare pair, let me know.

Regards,

Lesli Larson
Eugene, OR

On May 11, 10:33 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery

<thill....@gmail.com> wrote:
> The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured
> into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
> discussion of its own.
>

> Two or three years ago we had 650B bikes at Hiawatha Cyclery from at
> least three manufacturers: Rivendell, Kogswell, and Rawland. Now

> Rivendell does 650B only on smaller sizes of certain models, Kogswell
> seems to be on an indefinite hiatus, and Rawland's new models have

> been displayed at various venues with 622 and 559 wheels (with disc
> brakes, 650B will still be an option).
>

> To the extent that 650B has gone mainstream, it is by and large in the
> 27.5" wheel size for mountain bikes. It seems like new disc-specific
> rim and fat-knobby tire options are proliferating, but the 650B rim
> and tire options for road bikes have not expanded much, if at all,

> since I first read about 650B in the Rivendell Reader. There are some

> small importers/manufacturers like Jan Heine with the Gran Bois and
> now Pacenti with his Pari-Moto, but they have yet to get their tires
> into the QBP catalog or on any Treks. I was pleasantly surprised to
> see another of my mainstream distributors pick up some 650B stuff, but
> again, it was mostly of the MTB variety.
>

> I'm not sure Rivendell and a few custom framebuilders can sell enough
> 650B bikes to support much expansion, or even maintain current levels
> of the 650B rim/tire selection and availability. Unless the 650B size
> gets picked up by Trek or some other major player, I think its future
> will be at best as a niche item with limited selection and spotty

> availability. I'd encourage 650B bike owners and aficionados to

> stockpile an extra set of rims and a couple sets of favorite tires,
> just in case.
>

[rcnute]

Now I know where to go when the 650b-apocalypse hits...

On May 12, 3:37 am, Ken Mattina <ken.matt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with Jim that it's a good idea to stockpile 650b rims and tires in
> my basement.
>
> I think that there's still new 650b bikes being introduced.  Don't forget
> about the Velo Orange Polyvalent.  Also I believe that the Longleaf P/R
> prototype will be arriving soon.
>
> Ken
>
> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <

> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>

> --
> Where did the spring go?
> Where did my hormones go?
> Where did my energy go?
> Where did my go go?
> Where did the pleasure go?
> Where did my hair go?
>
> -- Ray Davies

[Jorgito]

Yikes, I'll have to add wheels and tires to my hoard of incandescent
light bulbs. And hi, by the way; I'm regularly here reading but this
is my first time posting. How long will hoarded tires and tubes keep?

On May 12, 1:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>

wrote:
> The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured
> into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
> discussion of its own.
>

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Now I feel like a crackpot, which isn't an unfamiliar feeling for me,
in case you were wondering! My original post suggested a modest
"stockpile" of two rims and four tires. Not exactly a lifetime supply
to get one through the apocalypse, but enough to get one through a
temporary shortage or the inventory bottlenecks that frequently affect
the supply of bike parts (it was nearly impossible to get 27"/630
tires of ANY kind in the summer of 2008, for example).

Tires and tubes will keep for a long time in a cool, dark, dry place.
I think it helps to keep them in a plastic bag, too. I have heard that
some old Italian racer types would "age" their sew-ups under
controlled conditions for a number of years, as they would a bottle of
wine, apparently because they believed that aging improved the tires
in some way.

[Sean Whelan]

Tubular tire aging is discussed here: http://branfordbike.com/articles/tubular-tires-pg87.htm --- On Thu, 5/13/10, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Ken Mattina]

Right now I have four pairs of hetres that are hermetically sealed in an industrial mayonnaise jar in my basement.  I also have four pairs of pari motos on the way.  I eventually will hoard 4 pairs of every known 650b tire known to mankind.

Also I have an extra unused 650b wheelset.  I have two hubsets that I want to have built up for my 650b stockpile.

Funny you say?  

Go ahead and laugh you fools.

We'll see who's laughing after the 650b apocalypse.

Ken

--
Where did the spring go?
Where did my hormones go?
Where did my energy go?
Where did my go go?
Where did the pleasure go?
Where did my hair go?

-- Ray Davies

[William]

The owner of the of the first Bicycle Shop I worked at told me that he
kept note of the religion of his neighbors. The reason was, he knew
that devout followers of certain religions were encouraged to
stockpile food for the apocalypse and aftermath. He didn't spell out
his backup plan, but just made the statement "when all the food is
gone, remembering where it's hidden is valuable information"

Ken, can I please have your home address and the PIN for your alarm
system?

On May 13, 10:17 am, Ken Mattina <ken.matt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right now I have four pairs of hetres that are hermetically sealed in an
> industrial mayonnaise jar in my basement.  I also have four pairs of pari
> motos on the way.  I eventually will hoard 4 pairs of every known 650b tire
> known to mankind.
>
> Also I have an extra unused 650b wheelset.  I have two hubsets that I want
> to have built up for my 650b stockpile.
>
> Funny you say?
>
> Go ahead and laugh you fools.
>
> We'll see who's laughing after the 650b apocalypse.
>
> Ken
>

> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Sean Whelan <strummer_...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > Tubular tire aging is discussed here:
>
> >http://branfordbike.com/articles/tubular-tires-pg87.htm
>

> > --- On *Thu, 5/13/10, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>*wrote:

>
> > From: Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
> > Subject: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
> > To: "RBW Owners Bunch" <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 11:13 AM
>
> > Now I feel like a crackpot, which isn't an unfamiliar feeling for me,
> > in case you were wondering! My original post suggested a modest
> > "stockpile" of two rims and four tires. Not exactly a lifetime supply
> > to get one through the apocalypse, but enough to get one through a
> > temporary shortage or the inventory bottlenecks that frequently affect
> > the supply of bike parts (it was nearly impossible to get 27"/630
> > tires of ANY kind in the summer of 2008, for example).
>
> > Tires and tubes will keep for a long time in a cool, dark, dry place.
> > I think it helps to keep them in a plastic bag, too. I have heard that
> > some old Italian racer types would "age" their sew-ups under
> > controlled conditions for a number of years, as they would a bottle of
> > wine, apparently because they believed that aging improved the tires
> > in some way.
>

> > On May 12, 4:56 am, Jorgito <esp...@guagua.org<http://mc/compose?to=esp...@guagua.org>>

> > wrote:
> > > Yikes, I'll have to add wheels and tires to my hoard of incandescent
> > > light bulbs. And hi, by the way; I'm regularly here reading but this
> > > is my first time posting. How long will hoarded tires and tubes keep?
>

> > > On May 12, 1:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=thill....@gmail.com>

>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured
> > > > into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
> > > > discussion of its own.
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

> > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+

> > unsub...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=unsub...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+

> > unsub...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=unsub...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> >  --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> --
> Where did the spring go?
> Where did my hormones go?
> Where did my energy go?
> Where did my go go?
> Where did the pleasure go?
> Where did my hair go?
>
> -- Ray Davies
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[bfd]

On May 13, 10:01 am, Sean Whelan <strummer_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tubular tire aging is discussed here:
>
> http://branfordbike.com/articles/tubular-tires-pg87.htm
>

The Bicycle FAQ has a different opinion:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-fables.html

[Bill Connell]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Ken Mattina <ken.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Right now I have four pairs of hetres that are hermetically sealed in an industrial mayonnaise jar in my basement.  I also have four pairs of pari motos on the way.  I eventually will hoard 4 pairs of every known 650b tire known to mankind.

For just a moment there, reading quickly, i thought the secret to
long-term tire storage was to pack them in mayonnaise.

--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN

[Tim McNamara]

On May 13, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Ken Mattina wrote:

> Right now I have four pairs of hetres that are hermetically sealed
> in an industrial mayonnaise jar in my basement.

Shouldn't those be on Funk and Wagnall's porch?

[Me]

Yikes!

Now I feel like a real jerk... I am about to begin building up my
Rivendell 'Bleriot', AND my next custom [if and when I get a 'next'
custom] was going to be 650B.

This thread reminds me of seeing the movie 2012 a few weeks back, any
chance the government will put a couple 650B rims, tires & tubes on
those fancy Arks?

-Scott

[Ken Mattina]

I tried funk and wagnall's porch but I was worried that some low life randonneur would steal them.

They're much more secure in my fortified basement.

Ken

--
Where did the spring go?
Where did my hormones go?
Where did my energy go?
Where did my go go?
Where did the pleasure go?
Where did my hair go?

-- Ray Davies

[Frankwurst]

It was not uncommon to age tires. I did it myself with tubulars. I
don't want to go back to those days. Glue, unsewing to patch and
resewing, glue again. Tubs are still around as will be 650b in thirty
years. I'll be dead then. I want to ride my 650b's into the sunset.

[RayO]

Ken,
What does industrial mayonaise taste like?

On May 13, 10:17 am, Ken Mattina <ken.matt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Right now I have four pairs of hetres that are hermetically sealed in an
> industrial mayonnaise jar in my basement.  I also have four pairs of pari
> motos on the way.  I eventually will hoard 4 pairs of every known 650b tire
> known to mankind.
>
> Also I have an extra unused 650b wheelset.  I have two hubsets that I want
> to have built up for my 650b stockpile.
>
> Funny you say?
>
> Go ahead and laugh you fools.
>
> We'll see who's laughing after the 650b apocalypse.
>
> Ken
>

> On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Sean Whelan <strummer_...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tubular tire aging is discussed here:
>
> >http://branfordbike.com/articles/tubular-tires-pg87.htm
>

> > --- On *Thu, 5/13/10, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>*wrote:

>
> > From: Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
> > Subject: [RBW] Re: 650B dead or alive?
> > To: "RBW Owners Bunch" <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> > Date: Thursday, May 13, 2010, 11:13 AM
>
> > Now I feel like a crackpot, which isn't an unfamiliar feeling for me,
> > in case you were wondering! My original post suggested a modest
> > "stockpile" of two rims and four tires. Not exactly a lifetime supply
> > to get one through the apocalypse, but enough to get one through a
> > temporary shortage or the inventory bottlenecks that frequently affect
> > the supply of bike parts (it was nearly impossible to get 27"/630
> > tires of ANY kind in the summer of 2008, for example).
>
> > Tires and tubes will keep for a long time in a cool, dark, dry place.
> > I think it helps to keep them in a plastic bag, too. I have heard that
> > some old Italian racer types would "age" their sew-ups under
> > controlled conditions for a number of years, as they would a bottle of
> > wine, apparently because they believed that aging improved the tires
> > in some way.
>

> > On May 12, 4:56 am, Jorgito <esp...@guagua.org<http://mc/compose?to=esp...@guagua.org>>

> > wrote:
> > > Yikes, I'll have to add wheels and tires to my hoard of incandescent
> > > light bulbs. And hi, by the way; I'm regularly here reading but this
> > > is my first time posting. How long will hoarded tires and tubes keep?
>

> > > On May 12, 1:33 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=thill....@gmail.com>

>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > The discussion about the new Pacenti 650B tires momentarily ventured
> > > > into commentary on "the future of 650B". I thought this was worth a
> > > > discussion of its own.
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

> > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+
> > unsub...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=unsub...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+
> > unsub...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=unsub...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> >  --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsubscrib­e...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> --
> Where did the spring go?
> Where did my hormones go?
> Where did my energy go?
> Where did my go go?
> Where did the pleasure go?
> Where did my hair go?
>
> -- Ray Davies
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Ken Mattina]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 6:48 PM, RayO <loch...@msn.com> wrote:

Ken,
What does industrial mayonaise taste like?

Miracle Whip!


 

[Lynne Fitz]

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I'll have 2 650B bikes in a
month or two. There will be tires, there will be wheels. Fine fine,
all will be fine.

:-)
Lynne "although I would like some more Michelin Axial Raids :-) " F

On May 13, 7:16 pm, Ken Mattina <ken.matt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsubscrib e...@googlegroups.com>

> > <rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsubscrib­e...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > .
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> > > --
> > > Where did the spring go?
> > > Where did my hormones go?
> > > Where did my energy go?
> > > Where did my go go?
> > > Where did the pleasure go?
> > > Where did my hair go?
>
> > > -- Ray Davies
>
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsubscrib e...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://

> > groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsubscrib e...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> --
> Where did the spring go?
> Where did my hormones go?
> Where did my energy go?
> Where did my go go?
> Where did the pleasure go?
> Where did my hair go?
>
> -- Ray Davies
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Frederick, Steve]

>What does industrial mayonaise taste like?

It's not for eating--tho it does a great job of filling cuts in tire casings...

Steve