1 Toptube or 2 -- Comparing the Two Versions of the Hillborne

[Bryan @ Renaissance Bicycles]

In the Shop we happen to have two 56cm Hillbornes. One is the
Taiwanese made Maxway, the other is the Waterford version from WI.

Of course, we couldn't help but take photos:
http://www.renaissancebicycles.com/gallery/?album=7&gallery=66

Obviously, the double toptuber is the Waterford version. It also
includes braze-ons for cantilever brakes, and a rear bridge for the
cable stop. The fork crowns are different.

Because I know people will ask ... the weight difference between the
frames is 8 ounces. For perspective, that is about the difference
between a full water bottle and one that is 3/4 full.

Both bikes are in our "build queue"; we'll post pictures when they are
complete.

Now, let the debate begin ...

Bryan

[William]

I'll vote (kind of). I'm surprised at how close the weights are. I
think the double TT looks cool, and I'd find useful. On BART I have
to grab hard on the seat tube to portage the bike up stairs, because
I'd get a handful of frame pump if I grabbed the TT. A second TT
would be a portage handle for me. I cannot think of another solution
to that for under 8 ounces. Frame strength and stiffness-wise, I
think the second TT is unnecessary. But, pretty lugs and a gorgeous
headbadge aren't necessary either. I personally prefer cantilevers
for a touring setup and sidepulls for a brevet/roadie setup. I
wouldn't call either one 'better'.

The thing I feel strongly about is the fork. I really don't like the
fork on the single TT bike. I vastly prefer the curly crown, the
curveback wings and especially the narrow tapered fork blades. The
blades on the single TT one look clumsy and chubby. Ick. My 56cm
Hillborne has a fork like the double TT version.

Bottom line, if someone offered me a free trade of my single TT
hillborne for a double TT hillborne, I'd probably take it. I would
not pay $250 for the upgrade. Mine is perfectly fine. If I had to
buy one of those two framesets from RenBikes today, I would absolutely
pick the double TT one, and I would pay the $250 extra because A/ the
fork is way nicer looking B/ I personally prefer cantilevers for my
Hillborne setup and C/ I like the double TT.

On Sep 1, 11:04 am, "Bryan @ Renaissance Bicycles"

[Bruce]

Did I read  somewhere that the Maxway frame uses a Toyo built fork? Toyo did a fine job on prior forks, so one wonders why the one pictured by Bryan seems "stockier."

To be honest, both bikes look great to me. I like the paint on the Maxway a bit better, but agree that the Waterford crown is nicer.

---

From: William <tape...@gmail.com>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 1:55:35 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: 1 Toptube or 2 -- Comparing the Two Versions of the Hillborne

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Bill Connell]

I also thought that someone else (not Maxway) was doing the forks, but
can't remember who. Given that the lugs appear identical otherwise,
i'm surprised in the differences in the forks, especially that the
canti version seems to have narrower tapered legs. The fork bend looks
the same on both, which is nice (i'm a fan of Riv's nice forks).
Unless it's a trick of the light, the orange on the Waterford version
looks a bit deeper. I agree, both are nice frames.

> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>

--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN

[William]

The Single TT one (Maxway?) has no BB cable guide installed!! Send it
back!
The Double TT one has a seatstay bridge that is not threaded
underneath for a fender!! Send it back!

On Sep 1, 12:14 pm, Bill Connell <bconn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also thought that someone else (not Maxway) was doing the forks, but
> can't remember who. Given that the lugs appear identical otherwise,
> i'm surprised in the differences in the forks, especially that the
> canti version seems to have narrower tapered legs. The fork bend looks
> the same on both, which is nice (i'm a fan of Riv's nice forks).
> Unless it's a trick of the light, the orange on the Waterford version
> looks a bit deeper. I agree, both are nice frames.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Bruce <fullylug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Did I read  somewhere that the Maxway frame uses a Toyo built fork? Toyo did
> > a fine job on prior forks, so one wonders why the one pictured by Bryan
> > seems "stockier."
>
> > To be honest, both bikes look great to me. I like the paint on the Maxway a
> > bit better, but agree that the Waterford crown is nicer.
>
> > ________________________________

> > From: William <tapebu...@gmail.com>

[Bill Connell]

Indeed - I'd be happy to dispose of them properly, just email directly
for my shipping address :-)

Bill

[bfd]

On Sep 1, 11:04 am, "Bryan @ Renaissance Bicycles"
<renaissancebicyc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder if Grant/Riv would ever consider making a Paris-Galiber style
bike:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/images/bike%20shops/Bicycle-Odyssey/Gablier_replica.jpg

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Paris_Gablier_main.htm

[bfd]

On Sep 1, 11:04 am, "Bryan @ Renaissance Bicycles"
<renaissancebicyc...@gmail.com> wrote:

OK, I don't get it. These are 56cm frames, not 60/64/68 cm. I haven't
ridden a bike with one of these frames, but are the single top tube
frames flexy? Why the need for a double top tube?! Seems unnecessary.
I know this isn't the bombadil and the frameset is designed to go "off-
road," but what's the purpose? Or is it a trademark thing for Riv
since they seem to be the only retailer out there selling bikes with
double top tubes. Good Luck!

[William]

"but what's the purpose?"

obviously to protect the frame pump and to allow me to carry up the
Bart stairs more easily

Duh

[Peter Pesce]

I really don't know why Riv has to go and make multiple different
versions of this bike.
Yes, I know the only answer that matters is "because Grant wants to"
but even HE has to expend lots of unnecessary energy explaining to
people why one version is, allegedly, as good as the other.
Just when he convinces people that Taiwan-made bikes are "real"
Rivendells he goes and has them made by Waterford. He puts different
forks and brakes on them, even different forks on the Maxway bikes-
Alan at EcoVelo has a 60cm Maxway Sam with cantis and what will, now,
forever hence be known as the "nice" fork; I have a 60cm Maxway Sam
with sidepulls and what will forever hence be known as the "crappy"
fork.
Maybe I'm just not used to this way of doing business, being a Riv
rookie...

[JoelMatthews]

> Alan at EcoVelo has a 60cm Maxway Sam with cantis and what will, now,
> forever hence be known as the "nice" fork; I have a 60cm Maxway Sam
> with sidepulls and what will forever hence be known as the "crappy"
> fork.

What qualities of Alan's fork make it better than yours?

[cm]

I dont think calling it a "crappy fork" is fair. I have a Bleriot
(obviously Taiwanese) and I dont think there is a crappy thing about
it. Riv had supply problems with taiwan and needed another builder. G
goes into it in some detail on the site. Seems like a new builder
would be a great time to try some things you've been thinking of
tryin', like a double top tube and canti's-- especially if it is a
temporary arrangement. I dont think it makes one bike better than the
other, just a little different.

It does stink that it makes you think less of your bike and I can
certainly understand that-- but at the end of the day it is the same
great bike it was when you bought it. Would I trade my Bleriot for a
double- TT, waterford SH? In a second with no hesitation but that
doesn't make me less happy with my bike. If it did I would sell it to
fund the SH.

The Saluki came with different brakes. So did the Rom. The Atlantis
has changed some over the years. Some customs were made by Richard
Sachs (drool!), Brakes change, braze ons change, kickstand plates get
added, some bikes get a bonus TT, some get a diagon-apillar, some made
by maxway, some by toyo, some by waterford-- but they are all Rivs and
all great bikes.

Cheers,
cm

[Michael_S]

I own a 56cm Maxway canti Sam with the "3 spot " fork crown and my
bike is plenty stiff enough for off road endeavors. I originally had
70x40 knobbies on it and took it on very technical singletrack quite a
few times... It never felt anything other than solid.

and for the record... I like both fork crowns. (I'd be happy with
either)

~Mike~

[Bill Connell]

It sometimes happens that a bike model will have changes over the run
- the Romulus and Saluki are other examples where there was a change
in brake type. The Sam is a little unusual in that it was caught in
production issues just as it was ramping up, so there was undoubtedly
some scrambling to keep the initial run going, thought IIRC there were
posts from Grant talking about the changes as they were happening.

I hope you don't think you have a lesser bike for the minor
differences. Waterford frames aren't custom either, but like the
Maxways are certainly above-average production quality. Both of those
forks are nice to my eye, and both have that curve i like so much. I
owned a Redwood for a few years; it had a 1-color paint job and
plainer lugs than any of the Sams, and it rode as well as any
Rambouillet i tried, no regrets.

[Johnny Alien]

I also prefer the fork crown on the double tt model. Although I tend
to like sidepulls better than canti's. I also really like the
trademark double tt look but sadly I ride smaller size frames and will
never be able to own one.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Peter Pesce]

Sorry, I was being intentionally melodramatic with the "crappy"
comment! Poor choice of words.

I have been exceedingly happy with my bike, my first Riv, and actually
had the option of getting a Waterford frame at the time. I liked the
sidepulls and single top tube, so I took the Maxway. No complaints.
But, honestly, seeing the two forks side by side I can't see much of a
difference in the proportions - obviously an untrained eye.
The crown on the Maxway bike does look a bit simplified, maybe a bit
chunkier.
I guess as I get a little more familiar with how Riv works I'll see
that the constant tinkering is a feature, not a bug!

[William]

"is a feature, not a bug!"

you must work with software. haha. We say that all the time at
work.

I think the Maxway crown is really cool. I just fell in love with the
curly crown on mine which is also on the Waterford. The fatter lower
fork blades are what I thought was chunky, but even when I said 'ick',
I too was being melodramatic. Another bad choice of words. No insult
intended. The Hillborne is a great bike in all it's versions.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2010-09-01 at 16:43 -0500, Bill Connell wrote:
> It sometimes happens that a bike model will have changes over the run
> - the Romulus and Saluki are other examples where there was a change
> in brake type.

If you're thinking of the Centerpulluki and the Cantiluki versions of
the Saluki, those were not running changes over time; the two versions
were both available at the introduction of the model.

[doug peterson]

"Because I know people will ask ... the weight difference between the
frames is 8 ounces. For perspective, that is about the difference
between a full water bottle and one that is 3/4 full."

Now that puts the weight in real terms. I defy anyone to tell the
difference in how their bike performs with a full bottle or empty
bottle, let alone partially full. Thanks for the info, Bryan.

dougP

On Sep 1, 11:04 am, "Bryan @ Renaissance Bicycles"
<renaissancebicyc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[EricP]

My first run Hillborne has a different crown than either of those.
Think it might have been the same as the Romulus. Otherwise, I do
like the one on the Waterford made version.

Then again, noticed that the Atlantis forks have changed over the
years.

While I do like the new ones, and have seen the Waterford made mode in
person, wouldn't trade my first run. Kinda like being an early
adopter of that bike. It's served me well so far.

Will also have to agree, not totally sure I see the point in double
top tubes on the 56. I find the bike plenty stiff enough. And this is
with a 220 rider on it. (Down from 240 when the bike first arrived
last year.)

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

[Robert F. Harrison]

I'm slower with an empty bottle because I'm looking around for someplace to fill up. Stands to reason! :-)

Bob

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--
Robert Harrison
rfhar...@gmail.com
statrix.statrix.com

[EcoVelo]

I think it's cool that these various iterations of the Hillborne are
out there - keeps it interesting. Mine is a single top tube 60cm
Maxway with cantis and the fork shown on the Waterford in Bryan's
photos. It might be just a tad flexy for some people, but it feels
just right under my 160 lb. I'd love to ride both of Bryan's frames
built up with identical components; what a education that would be!

Alan@EcoVelo

On Sep 1, 11:04 am, "Bryan @ Renaissance Bicycles"
<renaissancebicyc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Angus]

Beautiful pictures of two beautiful frames Bryan...thank you.

Two or one...I'll take one thanks.

Angus

On Sep 1, 1:04 pm, "Bryan @ Renaissance Bicycles"

[SFF]

One more variable:
I have a single top tube - 60cm - orange - Waterford with the 3 dot
fork...but my three dots didn't get the offset color, they were
painted orange. I think this was a very early Waterford with a
painting error. Any others out there like this? Oh well.

Joel

On Sep 1, 8:44 pm, Angus <angusle...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Beautiful pictures of two beautiful frames Bryan...thank you.
>
> Two or one...I'll take one thanks.
>
> Angus
>
> On Sep 1, 1:04 pm, "Bryan @ Renaissance Bicycles"
>
>

> > - Show quoted text -

[Philip Williamson]

Really? You can't tell that you have a full bottle on your bike? It
feels like an extra pound. I feel it when I'm out of the saddle.
I don't feel like a "princess and the pea" kind of rider, but my bike
feels different with a full bottle. I can feel 175mm cranks, or 25mm
tires instead of 28s. I don't have super-pronounced preferences, but I
notice. If it was 75 yesterday and 78 today, today feels hotter.

You're making me feel like Rain Man here. ...and... I just realized I
AM a "Princess and the Pea" kind of rider. Damn.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

"this is a song Jerry Lee Lewis wrote before he killed one of his
wives..."

[Michael_S]

I must be an insensitive lug then, because I certainly do not notice a
7.29 oz difference ( 28oz bottle 3/4 full vrs full) which is .45 lb.
For me that is a .2% difference in total bike +rider weight. I still
find the 2nd parallel top tube unappealing visually. Must be that
aging SoCal hipster thing.

~Mike~



On Sep 1, 11:13 pm, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > > Bryan- Hide quoted text -

[JoelMatthews]

> I still find the 2nd parallel top tube unappealing visually.

I like the parallel tube look on the real tall bikes. The parallel on
average bikes does not really catch my eye.

On the other hand, I really like multiple curving top tubes:

http://ingliscycles.com/i/r_t_grey/r_t_grey1.jpg

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[cm]

I really like to double TT. I liked it when brought it in on the
bigger bikes and like the function of it. I like it even more on the
smaller bikes (56 SH) where it could be argued that there is no real
function. What's cooler than a few extra lugs and a spare tt? I also
really like that Waterford is making'em.

Cheers!
cm

[Earl Grey]

Not sure about the Sam forks. I think the Hunqa forks were supposed to
be Toyo-built. That said, I have a first run (Taiwanese?) Sam (bought
Sept 09), which has the 3 dot fork crown, slender fork blades, and
cantilevers (but has the seatstay bridge with the hole underneath for
direct fender mounting w/o sliding bracket). For what it's worth, but
it's curious that my Taiwan Sam is more similar to the Waterford Sam
than the Taiwan Sam in the photos.

I love my Sam, and while I agree that all the changes are trivial, I
personally do really appreciate the ability to mount a rear fender
directly. Don't know why Waterford won't use those seatstay bridges.

Gernot

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

Saw somewhere on the group that Waterford's frame-building process
involved holding the frame in such a way as to make it difficult to
drill and/or thread the fender 'boss under the bridge. Merely
parroting; I don't know enough to know whether this makes sense. But I
do like appearing knowledgable!

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean
thrilled to be a 60cm 2TT Hillborne owner
If offered my choice of a 2nd bike right now, it'd be a 2nd 60cm
Hillborne of any kind

[Earl Grey]

Yeah, I've heard/read that, too, somewhere, but it don't make sense to
me. The brake bridge looks to me like a pre-manufactured piece that
gets brazed in place after its holes have already been made. I assume
that the frame gets held at some point by this brake bridge, but how
one extra little hole would make that impossible, I can't imagine.

Gernot


On Sep 4, 2:09 am, Thomas Lynn Skean <thomaslynnsk...@comcast.net>
wrote:

[Tim McNamara]

My 1996 Waterford-built All-Rounder has a fender mount under the
brake bridge, so the issue is not that they are not capable of doing
it. If they are using a solid cast brake bridge, that may be the
issue- there is nowhere for the end of the bolt to go. The bridge on
my A/R is a bit of tubing so it is hollow and the nose of the bolt
has a space to go into.

On Sep 4, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Earl Grey wrote:

> Yeah, I've heard/read that, too, somewhere, but it don't make sense to
> me. The brake bridge looks to me like a pre-manufactured piece that
> gets brazed in place after its holes have already been made. I assume
> that the frame gets held at some point by this brake bridge, but how
> one extra little hole would make that impossible, I can't imagine.
>

> On Sep 4, 2:09 am, Thomas Lynn Skean <thomaslynnsk...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Saw somewhere on the group that Waterford's frame-building process
>> involved holding the frame in such a way as to make it difficult to
>> drill and/or thread the fender 'boss under the bridge. Merely
>> parroting; I don't know enough to know whether this makes sense.
>> But I
>> do like appearing knowledgable!
>>

>> On Sep 3, 11:03 am, Earl Grey <earlg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Not sure about the Sam forks. I think the Hunqa forks were
>>> supposed to
>>> be Toyo-built. That said, I have a first run (Taiwanese?) Sam
>>> (bought
>>> Sept 09), which has the 3 dot fork crown, slender fork blades, and
>>> cantilevers (but has the seatstay bridge with the hole underneath
>>> for
>>> direct fender mounting w/o sliding bracket). For what it's worth,
>>> but
>>> it's curious that my Taiwan Sam is more similar to the Waterford Sam
>>> than the Taiwan Sam in the photos.
>>
>>> I love my Sam, and while I agree that all the changes are trivial, I
>>> personally do really appreciate the ability to mount a rear fender
>>> directly. Don't know why Waterford won't use those seatstay bridges.
>>

[eflayer]

can we say Grant is a marketing expert? And he creates fine bikes and
he is not afraid to throw the noodles against the wall and see what
sticks? 650B and double top tubes fit in there somewhere. To me the
single sloping top tube, lugged Sam is the cat's pajamas...whatever
that means.

Richard Schwinn has been selling the lugged sloping top tube Adventure
Cycle at Waterford for many years. It costs a big bundle with the
Waterford name on it. I wanted one forever. Then came the Sam. I
went for tigged Gunnar Sport with custom threaded Waterford fork.
That fits my needs perfectly. But the orange Sam is about as good as
it gets.

[mr.trout]

i think i have a second generation sam. when i was ordering it i was
talking to dave, i think, and we were talking about fit. i was trying
to decide stem length and he mentioned that the top tube on this frame
was a cm shorter than on the previous generation. if i measure the
"effective" tt on center it's 58, or 57 i should probably re-measure.
but it's not 59. looks like the waterford.