Budget Riv? Still on the horizon?

[murphyjrfk]

Does any one know if the budget riv is still being considered planned anything? I hope so. And sooner rather than later.

[Scot Brooks]

I chatted with Keven about it awhile ago. The idea is that it'll be a full-blown touring bike (from what I recall). He seemed to think end of the year was a likely time frame, but I'm sure these things are subject to change.

[William]

What kind of budget Rivendell are you keen to buy?

[murphyjrfk]

Any o' em. I'm sort of looking to replace my lht- I've been eyeing the san Marcos too so who knows. Every single Riv is so versatile and I don't tour just commute and ramble so they could all work. Glad to hear its on the horizon though.

[William]

I guess I meant, for example: what if the budget Riv was a singlespeed?  or a mixte?  or did not have lugs?  I don't know anything about where they are willing to make concessions for savings or what their design targets are.  

If you know your size, I'd stay ready with some cash handy and be ready to pounce when your perfect Riv come up here used.  That's probably still your best bet to get something that's just like the current Riv offerings at a lower price.  

[PATRICK MOORE]

Unless Grant has done a very complete volte face, they won't save by giving up lugs.

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-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

We have a nice 54 cm Singular Osprey here. It's Rambouillet-esque, lugged, 1" threaded fork, offset paint scheme, and internal rear brake cable housing routing, plus some other cute little touches. MSRP is around $700 for frame/fork. If there were corners cut, it's not clear where.

The problem with budget Rivs is that they tend to evolve quickly in the fancy direction, and the budget-ness fades quickly. The Hunq was supposed to be the budget model a couple years back. Now it's $2k.

[William]

That singular is pretty nice. Especially the one with the chromey chainstay. For those that can fit on a level TT bike thats a nice one. For a roadbike with fender clearance and a slight upslope TT there's the black mountain cycles offering. Black mountain also has a monster cross that could be a hunqapillar on a budget. Then theres the really tempting bruce gordon blt, while supplies last. That said, none of my budget suggestions have lugs

[Mike Schiller]

how about something like a Sam that fits 50mm tires with Canti brakes?  Seems like that would get a lot of interest. Kind of a low cost Hunqapillar.

We all want to run the big tires like the new Big Bens and others.

~mike 

Carlsbad Ca. 

On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:58:02 AM UTC-8, murphyjrfk wrote:

[James Warren]

I know my bro-in-law would buy such a bike if the available size was as large as 64 cm with 6 degree top tube. He couldn't do the $3000 that the Bombadil got to, and the 64 cm Sam didn't have the dirt tire capability he was after.

--

[Peter Morgano]

With a powder coat, no head badge and using existing lug designs I bet you could sell a Taiwan frame at around the 600-700 dollar price range. With a budget build you could have a whole bike brand new for under 1,500, although I know the talk was about coming in around 1k.

--

[James Warren]

A full bike that is Atlantis-like in capability and lugged selling for around $1500 would be the absolute best deal for sale in bikes. It would be like the LHT but better.

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Morgano
Sent: Feb 22, 2013 9:28 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 9:28:31 PM UTC-8, Peter M wrote:

With a powder coat, no head badge and using existing lug designs I bet you could sell a Taiwan frame at around the 600-700 dollar price range.

What you're talking about is something like the Soma Stanyan Road Sport frameset:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-3773699254952_2246_85133333

With a list price of $730, it fits your price range, is steel and even has chrome lugs!  For more, go here:

http://store.somafab.com/sostfr.html

With a budget build you could have a whole bike brand new for under 1,500, although I know the talk was about coming in around 1k.

Agree, a $1500 bike is very do-able. Good Luck!

On Feb 22, 2013 11:28 PM, "Mike Schiller" <mikey...@rocketmail.com> wrote:

how about something like a Sam that fits 50mm tires with Canti brakes?  Seems like that would get a lot of interest. Kind of a low cost Hunqapie th llar.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

A LHT stock complete is now approaching $1400 based on a $470 msrp frame. I'm not sure how you start with a $700-1000 frame and ala carte parts and keep it south of $2000 complete. The way to lower prices is to buy in bulk, not make the lugs plainer.

[IanA]

+1 - It would be great to see a budget Atlantis/Allrounder.  But in a way, Surly have that covered with the LHT and it has choice of  the mainstream 26" or 700 wheel sizes.  The 26" LHT in the larger sizes looks fabulous built up (and could be built around 650b conceivably).  Surly have such a high sales volume on the LHT so there is economy of scale there. Thorn Cycles in the UK have the Sherpa which makes a fabulous value for money 26" wheel tourer/allrounder too - and nicely finished. But no comparison to Rivendell in terms of finish.  I'm very pleased with my Riv LL - the workmanship is something to behold.  Is it really possible to build  Riv quality at a low price?  

[Garth]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 2:15:54 PM UTC-5, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

The problem with budget Rivs is that they tend to evolve quickly in the fancy direction, and the budget-ness fades quickly. The Hunq was supposed to be the budget model a couple years back. Now it's $2k.

Yes, I've followed Riv since 1999 and it seems that's the way most frames have gone. I don't know anything of the economics of frames, but surely there is a way to make a less costly frame, it's all a matter of their focus to really do it.

[Bruce Herbitter]

Materials, labor and transportation costs plus the profit margin added equals the price you pay. Rivs like the Romulus were killer deals but for one reason or another, could not be maintained. Rivs have good paint jobs and you could shave money there by doing something skimpy. Rivs use good quality tubing, and again you could skimp there. Riv could buy in mega volumes which would save per unit costs.  As it happens, it wouldn't reflect the Riv ethos with micro thin paint or clunky tubes or robo-welded joints. The limited market for this type of bike (lugged steel, built for comfort and usefulness) prevents Schwinn-like mass production so no savings there.

A used riv is your best option for lower price, probably.

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

.. surely there is a way to make a less costly frame, it's all a matter of their focus to really do it.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2013-02-23 at 08:52 -0600, Bruce Herbitter wrote:
> Materials, labor and transportation costs plus the profit margin added
> equals the price you pay. Rivs like the Romulus were killer deals but
> for one reason or another, could not be maintained. Rivs have good
> paint jobs and you could shave money there by doing something skimpy.
> Rivs use good quality tubing, and again you could skimp there. Riv
> could buy in mega volumes which would save per unit costs. As it
> happens, it wouldn't reflect the Riv ethos with micro thin paint or
> clunky tubes or robo-welded joints. The limited market for this type
> of bike (lugged steel, built for comfort and usefulness) prevents
> Schwinn-like mass production so no savings there.

The real shame is that nobody seems able to deal with the huge price
penalty we pay for componentry when building up such frames. You could
almost come out a head by buying a complete LHT, stripping off the
components and throwing the frame away, and that's just plain wrong.

[William]

James Warren wrote:

"I know my bro-in-law would buy such a bike if the available size was as large as 64 cm with 6 degree top tube. He couldn't do the $3000 that the Bombadil got to, and the 64 cm Sam didn't have the dirt tire capability he was after."

James, you should point your brother in law to Black Mountain Cycles.  Mike Varley's Monster Cross comes in a 62 and a 65cm, with a sloping top tube, but not a 6 degree slope.  It's $600 for the frame and fork, and was designed for 700x45mm tires.  Maybe it's still too small for him....

http://www.blackmtncycles.com/p/black-mountain-cycles-frames.html

[Mike Schiller]

It wouldn't make sense to make any Riv that doesn't have lugs or a nice paint job,although a single color paint is probably OK with most. The 1st Sam's were single color except a few accents on the fork crown. There are some shops that do pretty good job powder coating lugged bikes. That could save some coin

Price wise, something in the $1000 to $1300 price range would be reasonable for a Riv bike even a budget one.  If you want to spend less there are other options with tig welds.

Just make sure it fits those big tires!

~mike

On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:58:02 AM UTC-8, murphyjrfk wrote:

[cyclotourist]

Armchair CEO time. Where does the SOMA San Marcos come into the discussion? It's lugged, presumably good tubes and quality paint. Costs around ~$800 on the street, $949 MSRP. There's your budget Riv for road/country folk. If that bike can retail for $800,  a fat-tired version could be too. I think that's what Jim (and I) would like. A Taiwanese lugged Atlantis type bike but w/ sloping top tube wouldn't cost that much more. Other than eating into Hilly and possibly 'Lantis sales, seems like it would be a great bike for SOMA to offer.

The BMC bikes look fantastic, but like Surly/Gunnar/SOMA (minus SM), they are not lugged. I think there's a market for budget Taiwanese lugged bikes like the Romulus, Bleriot and San Marcos.

But I haven't purchased a new bike since 2001, so maybe I'm not the one that should be espousing on this... :-)

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Cheers,
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[allenmichael]

Maybe Riv will save money by building the bike out of cardboard. This guy says that he can make a cardboard bike for $9 to $12.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/11/cardboard-bicycles

On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:58:02 AM UTC-8, murphyjrfk wrote:

[Bruce Herbitter]

Good observation Steve

[Mike]

I have a Surly LHT and love it. It's very Rivish in its set-up with
48cm Noodles, Silver shifters, Sugino cranks, VP pedals, Schwalbe 40mm
Marathons and a Brooks saddle. It's a versatile bike and has a rides
nicely. I say make your own budget Riv by purchasing an LHT or Soma
Saga and setting it up with components from RBW.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41335973@N00/6770988421/in/set-72157627290908300

--mike

[Michael]

I'd like to see whatever they do fully lugged with an option for head tube cream paint, for those of us who would be willing to pay a smidge more for the bling.

Nice Riv fork bends would be cool. Not like the straighter Marcos fork. But like a typical Riv fork.
Maybe these take it outta da budget price though.

[Joe Hogg]

Hi David,

On the Rivendell  web site, the description of the SOMA San Marcos says that 35mm wide tires will fit this bike. Not clear whether or not this could also fit fenders. Are you thinking of a wider tire on a road bike?

Cheers,

Joe
LA, CA

[cyclotourist]

No that's perfect for a road bike. I was wondering out loud about a fat-tired (relative) version. A San Marcos grade Atlantis.

[Peter Pesce]

The Soma Stanyan is lugged and about $750 IIRC. I'm guessing that's pretty much the floor for a decent lugged frame.

Pete in CT

[Bruce Herbitter]

Ugh...

On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 10:50 AM, redsydude <thau...@q.com> wrote:

I think in 2011 their idea was to .... spray paint the frame for a few dollars to make it look old and increase its theftproofedness. 

[Peter Pesce]

Agreed. Ugh.

In the quest to make a "budget" Riv, what exactly are the qualities they are trying to deliver at a budget price, and what exactly can be given up to get there?

If you are trying to deliver the Riv ride and fit, great. Then do it in a form that allows you to deliver those qualities in a less expensive package, like a TIG-ed, powder coated frame.
If you are just trying to deliver lugs, then you'll eventually hit a floor on labor, even if you use the cheapest tubes possible. But still, if you want lugs-for-all, cheap, then go for it.

If you are trying to deliver everything, but just cheaper, then you can't. That's why there's no $30k Ferrari. I think that at least some small part of Riv's appeal is that they are "nice" bikes to a degree, that people are proud to own. I don't see how a rattle-can-it-yourself frame fits into that brand image. If paint is the only thing you can imagine giving up, then maybe you just can't do it.

It wouldn't surprise me if RBW has reached the same conclusion.

-Pete in CT

[Garth]

Forget about the "budget" and embrace who you ARE Rivendell :) !!!!!! 

  Do what you love and love what you do ..... and the customers come :)

[William]

"A San Marcos grade Atlantis."

So you just want the single TT, single color, canti-Hillborne back?  

[Mike Schiller]

yea, Bill, except with room for  50mm tires.  I had one of those Hillbornes and liked it but sold it for a Ram. Now I wish I had kept it instead of selling it to Dustin.  It was a good trail bike and for touring  but it's was stiff for my taste for road riding.

~mike

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Compared to the cost advantages of buying frames in larger quantity, the savings involved in cheapening lugs or paint is almost irrelevant. If 100 Riv people put down a serious deposit, I imagine Riv could give us an "economical" Atlantis without compromising on anything (except maybe size selection and US manufacture) from the non-economical Atlantis. Volume is key, but volume has never really been a Riv strategy.

[murphyjrfk]

I love all the answers. And the what not.  But I suppose I forgot to mention I don't care if the bike they come out with didn't have lugs was a mixte with gray primer as pain t and not a single decal.  I'm not tall so generally ride a 52 give or take and the thing that drives me crazy is you can't buy a smaller bike with a shallow seat tube.  Even the lht-which I have and like well enough-has a 74 degree seat tube.  And man I love shallow seat tubes. My wife and I have mountains o' student loans and small children so even when there is enough money I can't justify it.  But man do I want the GP sweetness regardless o' what it looks like! 

 this group is the best.

[cyclotourist]

Yes!!! But w/ clearance for +50mm tires like Mike mentioned. Could be the perfect bike!

[Peter Morgano]

So a budget hunqapillar, which was the budget bombadil? Even with no diagatube and one color powder coat I doubt you could get the price point below 1k and still have it make sense. I think there would be a market there but it would have to eat into existing hunqapillar sales instead of bringing in new customers and money.

[cyclotourist]

Yeah, cannibalizing sales of existing is the problem. But could be a way to grow the segment as well. Really nothing else like that out there. Doesn't have to be a Riv bike, could be SOMA, QBP, whoever. But if San Marcos can sell for ~$750, seems like budget Hunq could as well. Rawland Stag has it covered, but in low-trail. I want me a goodl ol' fashioned high trail bike!

I think the Hunq is more the budget Atlantis than Bomb?

[William]

But the San Marcos cannot retail at $750.  Retail on the San Marcos is $900.  If you find somebody with a Merry Sales account that will sell it to you for cost+$50, that does not make it an actually viable retail product at $750.  It's viable at $900.  

[cyclotourist]

MSRP vs. street price are different animals. A popular search engine shows it for ~$750 with free shipping.
It doesn't even have to be a Rivendell if that cuts into brand perception, etc. Just seems like a enough of a market for it.

/February rainy, cold, snowed in, cabin fever conjecture (from Sunny Southern California).

[Leslie]

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:59:31 PM UTC-5, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think the Hunq is more the budget Atlantis than Bomb?
>

Quote from the Hunq's page: "Our most extravagant, screw-the-expense bike was the off-roady Bombadil, and the Hunqapillar is a budgetated version of that bike—only slightly short-cutted to make it a lot more affordable and barely less heavy duty than it’s much more expensive big brother."

FWIW......

[cyclotourist]

Yes! I was think Hillborne as the budget Atlantis. Brain and fingers don't always work in concert.

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[Leslie]

Technically, I think the Hilborne is considered a budget Hilsen, actually.....

Of course, most RBW frames have a good bit of overlap due to their practicality, but the Atlantis is kinda unique.... I wouldn't think it wrong to think of the Hunq as a between the Atlantis and the Bomba frame, tho'.....

[Shaun Meehan]

Isn't the budget Atlantis already pretty much available in a wide range of sizes in the form of the Surly LHT? I love Rivendell's and all but I'm just making a legitimate observation.

Shaun Meehan

[William]

"A popular search engine shows it for ~$750 with free shipping"

that's precisely my point.  quickbike.com has a Merry Sales account.  They are willing to sell a frameset for cost plus $50.  Putting up an internet storefront to sell a bike frame like a commodity doesn't prove that Rivendell could design a budget Hunqa for $750.  It doesn't prove they can't, either, I'll grant you.  

[William]

Yes, Shaun, it is.  Absolutely correct.  The OP specifically wants a budget Riv to replace his LHT, and several have stated in the thread that what they want is a budget lugged Atlantis.   

[Mike Schiller]

yes... budget means different things to all of us.  With US built Riv's over $2000 now, perhaps an Atlantis like  Riv made in Taiwan for $1200 would fit in nicely between the LHT and the Waterford built version.

~mike

[William]

That's a business model that might work. Merry Sales paid Grant $3000 for the San Marcos design and for permission to use Riv lugs, and they pay Riv a tiny royalty for each frame sold. It was all in the Blug.

Now if Merry Sales came to Riv again,and said we want to do another bike, and paid for an Econo-Hunqa this time, or maybe deliberately made an Econo-Bombadil, since Riv has stepped away from that, then maybe there could be something. We consumers could buy it from an online seller, or our LBS or whomever we choose. Maybe it could be brought in for around $1000

[William]

[Don Compton]

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:16:15 AM UTC-8, Garth wrote:

Forget about the "budget" and embrace who you ARE Rivendell :) !!!!!! 

  Do what you love and love what you do ..... and the customers come :)

To me, you are "right on". While Riv's aren't cheap, I feel they are well priced for their quality. I just can't see watering down the brand.

[dougP]

Now we just need to go outside & ride our bikes.  Speculation is great good fun but Grant / Rivendell will follow their own internal compass.  You never know what will pop up next (diagatube? tentacular stays?) which is all part of the fun.  Who'd ever guess about the Apaloosa? 

dougP

[Peter Morgano]

Its 35 degrees out with freezing rain. I would rather stay warm and speculate, haha. My first spring with a Rivendell ready to go though, I am super pumped.

--

[Garth]

Not likely Mike, Do you recall how the Taiwan Atlantis's were hit a peak of 3000$ ? 

[Leslie]

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:12:57 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

Not likely Mike, Do you recall how the Taiwan Atlantis's were hit a peak of 3000$ ? 

That was the Toyo Atlantis from Japan, not Taiwan.   


I think, we just need to see what Grant/Keven come up with, maybe later this year....

 

[Garth]

Oh yes .... lol.. Japan.   Is the Taiwan exchange rate much better though ? IDK ....

[Ron Mc]

mostly, cost of living for the labor is lower

[Leslie]

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:12:04 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

Oh yes .... lol.. Japan.   Is the Taiwan exchange rate much better though ? IDK ....

As Ron said, it's the labor, in large part.

Grant has on several occasions said he wouldn't mind getting bikes made by Toyo in Japan again;   but he said it's a function of the exchange rate, lead times for delivery, minimum quantities required, as to where makes the most sense.   Using Taiwan lowers cost; maybe mostly labor, but they're still trained by Toyo, so it's not like they're not well built.   But maybe the Taiwan ones are spec'd with a - not cheap but just less-expensive - tubing, maybe a little simpler-to-build design (ie, not adding the curvastays on the way the Bombadil's is)....

[thalasin]

I'd be all in for a budget version of the Atlantis, as that's the bike I've always wanted but just can't afford.  I tried to make do with a LHT, but I never liked the bike and am getting rid of it.  It's the Rivendell ride I'm in search of, so if it actually comes to fruition, I'm in without hesitation.

Tracy 

[PATRICK MOORE]

Tracy -- asking to add more data to my store: what exactly do you find absent in the ride of the LHT that you find in Rivendells' ride (= comfort?) and handling?

I'd love to have a Riv ride mated to my Fargo, whose handling is mediocre, but I put up with the Fargo for its other virtues. (Note one exception: I find that the Fargo does handle heavy rear loads better than the Sam Hill.)

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 9:19 AM, thalasin <thal...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'd be all in for a budget version of the Atlantis, as that's the bike I've always wanted but just can't afford.  I tried to make do with a LHT, but I never liked the bike and am getting rid of it.  It's the Rivendell ride I'm in search of, so if it actually comes to fruition, I'm in without hesitation.

Tracy 

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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
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-------------------------

[thalasin]

I really wish I could have a long-term, head-to-head ride comparison of both bikes.  And maybe I had unrealistic expectations of a touring bike, and maybe the fit on the LHT just wasn't right for me.  But I gave it a go for 3 years and am giving up the ghost.  I have a Rambouillet, and the ride on that bike is wonderful--so based on that experience and what I've read from others here, I'm assuming I could expect the same out of an Atlantis.  I came to hate the LHT and it was absolutely no fun to ride.  It was sluggish and every ride felt like a slog.  I've never actually toured on it, and others have told me that's where the bike really shines.  In my mind, though, if I'm slow and hating it unloaded, I can't imagine putting 40 lbs. of stuff on it and it being any more enjoyable.  So, like I said, it's probably a combination of factors and quite possibly ignorance on my part, but I'm looking for other options.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Interesting; thanks. I've owned at least one bike (12-speed-era Fuji Royale) that handled better with a heavy rear load than unladen. Of course, there are so many variables here that classification is difficult if not impossible, but I find such experiences as yours interesting.

The Fargo definitely feels sluggish in acceleration compared to other bikes I've ridden, this even with Kojaks which are decent tires. OTOH, so did the Sam Hill, though overall the SH handled better than the Fargo. My other Rivs feel ideal to me. Ram build to be completed late this week, God willing, so we will see about that one.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

If your baseline is the Rambouillet, which has a fairly zippy, lively ride, both the LHT and the Atlantis will seem similarly ponderous and sluggish. That said, I've never felt that the LHT was a "poor man's Atlantis", because the LHT is more truck-like than the Atlantis. To me, my Cross-check reminds me more of my former Atlantis. That's splitting hairs though.

[Peter Pesce]

I have a LHT and it too feels dead unloaded. I'm thinking it's somewhat related to Jan Heine's thoughts on frame flex and responsiveness. The LHT frame seems overly stiff unloaded, as it's built to haul, but comes to life (a bit, at least) for me when some weight is on it. Kind of like a pickup truck rides horribly when empty, but much better with a load in the bed.


-Pete in CT

[thalasin]

I do have a Cross-Check that's currently set up as a fixed gear, so
when the LHT is sold, I plan on adding gears (gasp) and moving it over
to road duty. Your comparison of the CC/Atlantis ride quality gives
me optimism!

On Feb 27, 9:50 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >>> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[Eric Platt]

Will also chime in and say that the ride quality of the Cross Check is more similar to the Atlantis than the LHT.  Have a Cross Check, LHT and used to have an Atlantis. 

 

That said, everyone feels different about different bikes.  Patrick Moore seems to find the Fargo sluggish, yet when I had one it felt like the most nimble bike I owned.  Even moreso than the Sam Hillborne.  But I weight at least 75 pounds more than Patrick.

 

Still wouldn't mind a budge Rivendell, especially with 26" wheels and provisions for V brakes. And I like the idea of rattlecan paint for the bike.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Bertin753]

Patrick Moore

iPhone

On Feb 27, 2013, at 6:36 PM, Eric Platt <eperic...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

That said, everyone feels different about different bikes.  Patrick Moore seems to find the Fargo sluggish, yet when I had one it felt like the most nimble bike I owned.  Even moreso than the Sam Hillborne.  But I weight at least 75 pounds more than Patrick.

 

Just to be clear, the Fargo (as also the SH) feels sluggish (and non-optimum in handling) in reference to bikes that feel particularly lively and balanced for one reason or another-- the custom Rivs, the Herse, the Motobecane. But the Fargo feels good "in isolation" so to speak--I really enjoy riding it.

Still wouldn't mind a budge Rivendell, especially with 26" wheels and provisions for V brakes. And I like the idea of rattlecan paint for the bike.

Perhaps Riv could sell the frames with just a primer coat and give prizes for the best home-brew color coat. (Note, in case it needs to be said, that I am only a little bit serious.)

[Earl Grey]

Here is how to get a budget Riv now (other than waiting for a used deal, which could also take a while):

Get yourself a zero % interest credit card. Get a Sam or Betty now before the price goes up (get the unpainted head tube if still available in your size). Set up automatic payments so that you pay off the frame before the interest kicks in. Find a bargain older bike on Craig's List that has a suitable selection of parts. Move the parts over (650B wheels will be a problem, though). Scrounge for the rest (long reach brakes and wheels) here on the RBW list and the iBob list. 

The $400 you could save in a budget frame is a pittance even on a budget if spread out over a year. Commit to cooking for your family instead of going out to eat, do without cable, stop drinking beer and wine for a year, or juice (it's not that healthy, anyway), whatever. Or ride your new bike everywhere if you are now driving a car. Sell the car, buy a trailer for the kids, or a front mounted and rear mounted child seat. There are ways to save $40 a month if you are working and living in the US. I waited for years before buying a Riv because they seemed so extravagant. Buying the original Sam at $1000 in 2009 felt like a super-splurge bordering on the irresponsible, but I bit the bullet because it was half of the other Rivs. I wish I hadn't waited so long.

Hope I don't sound preachy, and perhaps your finances are more dire than mine are/were (maxed out credit cards?), but most employed folk in the US can afford a Sam, especially if it can replace car trips some of the time. It's mostly a matter of priorities, and perhaps overcoming fear. 

Cheers,

Gernot

PS: Moving to a cheaper country doesn't hurt. :)

GH in Thailand without a car with a 2.5 year old and an 8 month old, wife's student loans finally paid off a year ago. 

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Interesting perspective Gernot! Part of Grant's mission statement in the old days was that Rivs would be affordable to 'anybody who has a job and bicycle priorities'. I may not have quoted that exactly right, but you get the idea. Anyway, that notion helped me "justify" spending $3k-plus on an Atlantis ($1300 frame set back then). Although I no longer own it, that bike taught me a lot about bicycle priorities, and shaped my approach to every bike I've owned since.

[Leslie]

On Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:08:04 AM UTC-5, Earl Grey wrote:

Get a Sam or Betty now before the price goes up (get the unpainted head tube if still available in your size).

Gernot,

Unfortunately, the unpainted head-tube ones are now gone, and the price did go up as of the start of this month.   But otherwise, the rest is spot-on.... it's what you choose as priorities...

[Bruce Herbitter]

Love this. Reminds me of RBW's old advertising for Rambouillet. It's affordable for a cyclist with a job and "bicycle priorities"

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Earl Grey <earl...@gmail.com> wrote:

....but most employed folk in the US can afford a Sam, especially if it can replace car trips some of the time. It's mostly a matter of priorities,.......

When I was hemming and hawing over buying a Ram back in '07, a frame set was $1,300, and a complete bike was about $2,300.  10,000 miles on that bike later, I'm glad I pulled the trigger. To get RBW to make me one today (and I assume you could order one as a custom) would be over double the cost.

Bruce

[David Hays]

Patrick:

You say 'My other Rivs feel ideal to me.' separating out the Sam. Where does the Homer fall in your evaluation?

"I'm seriously looking at making the plunge on a 650B Homer as an all around and don't foresee loaded touring.

Thanks.

David

[PATRICK MOORE]

Sorry, I have no experience with the Homer. FWIW, all the "excellent" Rivs I've owned have been built strictly as dedicated road bikes.

[dougP]

Gernot's got the right idea.  Instead of us trying to figure out how Rivendell can give us "low priced lugged bikes", we need to figure out how to organize our resources, expenses & priorities to afford a Rivendell.  I really truly believe Grant & Co are doing the best they can to deliver a quality, uncompromised product at a fair price.  Somehow people justify cars costing 10X a Rivendell ("it's only monthly payments").  The bike will be a pleasure to own long after the car is on the scrap heap. 

When I bought my Atlantis 10 years ago, it cost 3X what I'd paid for the most expensive bike I'd bought to date.  However, I told myself I could screw around with compromises for the rest of my life or just get what I wanted & enjoy it for decades.  We're about to start our second decade together. 

Where there's sufficient will, there is a way.  I think Rivendell has done their part. 

dougP

[LF]

On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:58:02 AM UTC-5, murphyjrfk wrote:

Does any one know if the budget riv is still being considered planned anything? I hope so. And sooner rather than later.

With wages  steadily declining, and corporate profits  steadily increasing, something has got to give.  We're all hoping for lower cost Rivs & iPhones, for champagne on a beer budget.  Man, I'm broke. I got no bread, let me eat cake.  Maybe O'bama will ask Grant to fix the economic crisis.

Best,

Larry

[Adam]

I have a good friend in the process of starting a new company in San
Francisco. The prototype was featured in Manny's last photo set. It'll
be a well made steel frame with great clearances and may be a budget
option worth looking at.

www.mtntr.com

Hope that's helpful.
Adam

[cyclotourist]

650B 56 single TT has gotta be the perfect bike!

On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Davidbea <bead...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve also spent many hundreds of dollars (at least) on Bridgestones, Univegas, Miyatas and hybrid Bianchis not buying a Rivendell. I’ve been almost satisfied but still wanted the real thing.

I finally decided to take the plunge and am picking up a new 56cm 650B H. Homer Hilsen frame set. It’s one of the last single tube Toyo’s. Looking to put this together within as tight a budget as reasonably possible but am certainly excited about spring’s imminent arrival here with a new bike.

David

On Friday, March 1, 2013 3:14:16 AM UTC-5, Tonester wrote:

I was fortunate enough to get an Atlantis as a gift, but I can tell you I spent hundreds (thousands, perhaps) of dollars NOT buying a Rivendell.  Treks, Miyatas, blah blah blah.  I did the same with my Aerostich motorcycle suit - instead of just biting the bullet and spending the $700+ I bought countless replicas and half measures, only to finally just give up and eat ramen for a couple of months and buying the real deal - which is still with me ten years later.  All the other stuff is long gone.  

If a Riv is what you want, no other scratch will cure that itch.  Do it!

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

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"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it." -Mark Twain

[David Hays]

Thanks. That's what I thought.

I couldn't resist.

David