The RavenDB.Database package is designed for plug-in developers and as a dependency for RavenDB.Embedded.
I agree that Raven.Server.exe should be distributed don't think it should be the tools folder of RavenDB.Database, but as separate RavenDB.Server package. Like how xunit ships it's exe's in the xunit.runners<http://nuget.org/packages/xunit.runners>package.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Damian Hickey <dhic...@gmail.com> wrote: > The RavenDB.Database package is designed for plug-in developers and as a > dependency for RavenDB.Embedded.
> I agree that Raven.Server.exe should be distributed don't think it should > be the tools folder of RavenDB.Database, but as separate RavenDB.Server > package. Like how xunit ships it's exe's in the xunit.runners<http://nuget.org/packages/xunit.runners>package.
> Does OFI (Oren, Fitzchak, Itamar) agree?
> On Monday, 16 April 2012 18:20:04 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
>> Why does the RavenDB.Database package NOT include Raven.Server.exe?
On Tuesday, 17 April 2012 09:08:15 UTC+1, Oren Eini wrote:
> Yes.
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Damian Hickey <dhic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The RavenDB.Database package is designed for plug-in developers and as a >> dependency for RavenDB.Embedded.
>> I agree that Raven.Server.exe should be distributed don't think it should >> be the tools folder of RavenDB.Database, but as separate RavenDB.Server >> package. Like how xunit ships it's exe's in the xunit.runners<http://nuget.org/packages/xunit.runners>package.
>> Does OFI (Oren, Fitzchak, Itamar) agree?
>> On Monday, 16 April 2012 18:20:04 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
>>> Why does the RavenDB.Database package NOT include Raven.Server.exe?
Why shouldn't the server exe be distributed with this package? I did a directory diff between the package and the \server folder in the zip file, they were equal except it didn't have the .exe nor the dlls for nlog/json.net because those are handled as package dependencies.
I went to install RavenDB.Database because I wanted to evaluate the implications of targeting the .exe for usage in development as opposed to IIS hosted in development (one reason being that, I still don't have a server package yet except for the hidden one that was created which seems like too much of a brittle solution to consider using).
So the improvements to the nuget experience while nice didn't really add anything that wasn't already there. I still have a bad experience dealing with migrating forward in RavenDB, and I'm the kind of user that is responsible for maintaining and deploying sweeping changes along with the authority to decide what softwares I'm going to purchase for myself and for my team. I'm not the user you want things to be difficult for because if I find things needlessly difficult and I've been one of the longest running RavenDB users what do you think users who in situations similar to me are going to see? They're going to see a tool that will make their lives more difficult because of how much manual package management is still involved for maintaining the servers.
RavenDB has an incredible story for development. It has a poor story for deployment and maintenance. The people who are responsible for deployment and maintenance are generally going to be the users who have key decision authority (or input) in regards to something as major as a database platform, these aren't the people you want to feel like they're the ones who have the short end of the stick when compared to how awesome using RavenDB is.
On Monday, April 16, 2012 4:18:07 PM UTC-4, Damian Hickey wrote:
> The RavenDB.Database package is designed for plug-in developers and as a > dependency for RavenDB.Embedded.
> I agree that Raven.Server.exe should be distributed don't think it should > be the tools folder of RavenDB.Database, but as separate RavenDB.Server > package. Like how xunit ships it's exe's in the xunit.runners<http://nuget.org/packages/xunit.runners>package.
> Does OFI (Oren, Fitzchak, Itamar) agree?
> On Monday, 16 April 2012 18:20:04 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
>> Why does the RavenDB.Database package NOT include Raven.Server.exe?
On Tuesday, 17 April 2012 20:14:02 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
> Why shouldn't the server exe be distributed with this package? I did a > directory diff between the package and the \server folder in the zip file, > they were equal except it didn't have the .exe nor the dlls for nlog/ > json.net because those are handled as package dependencies.
> I went to install RavenDB.Database because I wanted to evaluate the > implications of targeting the .exe for usage in development as opposed to > IIS hosted in development (one reason being that, I still don't have a > server package yet except for the hidden one that was created which seems > like too much of a brittle solution to consider using).
> So the improvements to the nuget experience while nice didn't really add > anything that wasn't already there. I still have a bad experience dealing > with migrating forward in RavenDB, and I'm the kind of user that is > responsible for maintaining and deploying sweeping changes along with the > authority to decide what softwares I'm going to purchase for myself and for > my team. I'm not the user you want things to be difficult for because if I > find things needlessly difficult and I've been one of the longest running > RavenDB users what do you think users who in situations similar to me are > going to see? They're going to see a tool that will make their lives more > difficult because of how much manual package management is still involved > for maintaining the servers.
> RavenDB has an incredible story for development. It has a poor story for > deployment and maintenance. The people who are responsible for deployment > and maintenance are generally going to be the users who have key decision > authority (or input) in regards to something as major as a database > platform, these aren't the people you want to feel like they're the ones > who have the short end of the stick when compared to how awesome using > RavenDB is.
> On Monday, April 16, 2012 4:18:07 PM UTC-4, Damian Hickey wrote:
>> The RavenDB.Database package is designed for plug-in developers and as a >> dependency for RavenDB.Embedded.
>> I agree that Raven.Server.exe should be distributed don't think it should >> be the tools folder of RavenDB.Database, but as separate RavenDB.Server >> package. Like how xunit ships it's exe's in the xunit.runners<http://nuget.org/packages/xunit.runners>package.
>> Does OFI (Oren, Fitzchak, Itamar) agree?
>> On Monday, 16 April 2012 18:20:04 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
>>> Why does the RavenDB.Database package NOT include Raven.Server.exe?
Chris, assuming it would be shipped there, where would you want it to be and how would you use it?
Long story short - this package is aimed at development, and for deployment as website (which you asked for).
We are going to look for ways to ease the deployment/update stories, but they ought to be consistent and to make sense. R
Oren doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to try and promote NAppUpdate<https://github.com/synhershko/NAppUpdate>for doing server updates when running from console or as a service (the EXE file). Take a look at it and let me know if that'd be what you're after.
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Chris Marisic <ch...@marisic.com> wrote: > Why shouldn't the server exe be distributed with this package? I did a > directory diff between the package and the \server folder in the zip file, > they were equal except it didn't have the .exe nor the dlls for nlog/ > json.net because those are handled as package dependencies.
> I went to install RavenDB.Database because I wanted to evaluate the > implications of targeting the .exe for usage in development as opposed to > IIS hosted in development (one reason being that, I still don't have a > server package yet except for the hidden one that was created which seems > like too much of a brittle solution to consider using).
> So the improvements to the nuget experience while nice didn't really add > anything that wasn't already there. I still have a bad experience dealing > with migrating forward in RavenDB, and I'm the kind of user that is > responsible for maintaining and deploying sweeping changes along with the > authority to decide what softwares I'm going to purchase for myself and for > my team. I'm not the user you want things to be difficult for because if I > find things needlessly difficult and I've been one of the longest running > RavenDB users what do you think users who in situations similar to me are > going to see? They're going to see a tool that will make their lives more > difficult because of how much manual package management is still involved > for maintaining the servers.
> RavenDB has an incredible story for development. It has a poor story for > deployment and maintenance. The people who are responsible for deployment > and maintenance are generally going to be the users who have key decision > authority (or input) in regards to something as major as a database > platform, these aren't the people you want to feel like they're the ones > who have the short end of the stick when compared to how awesome using > RavenDB is.
> On Monday, April 16, 2012 4:18:07 PM UTC-4, Damian Hickey wrote:
>> The RavenDB.Database package is designed for plug-in developers and as a >> dependency for RavenDB.Embedded.
>> I agree that Raven.Server.exe should be distributed don't think it should >> be the tools folder of RavenDB.Database, but as separate RavenDB.Server >> package. Like how xunit ships it's exe's in the xunit.runners<http://nuget.org/packages/xunit.runners>package.
>> Does OFI (Oren, Fitzchak, Itamar) agree?
>> On Monday, 16 April 2012 18:20:04 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
>>> Why does the RavenDB.Database package NOT include Raven.Server.exe?
I hadn't tried it yet, I wanted to try the -RAM flag on raven server so started moving to the new nuget packages, once I saw after installing the new nuget packages I'd once again have to manual package in changes to use, I just abandoned the entire upgrade process.
On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 3:58:58 PM UTC-4, Damian Hickey wrote:
> How did you get on with the RavenDB.AspNetHost package I built for you? > I'd like some feedback on that.
> Thx
> On Tuesday, 17 April 2012 20:14:02 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
>> Why shouldn't the server exe be distributed with this package? I did a >> directory diff between the package and the \server folder in the zip file, >> they were equal except it didn't have the .exe nor the dlls for nlog/ >> json.net because those are handled as package dependencies.
>> I went to install RavenDB.Database because I wanted to evaluate the >> implications of targeting the .exe for usage in development as opposed to >> IIS hosted in development (one reason being that, I still don't have a >> server package yet except for the hidden one that was created which seems >> like too much of a brittle solution to consider using).
>> So the improvements to the nuget experience while nice didn't really add >> anything that wasn't already there. I still have a bad experience dealing >> with migrating forward in RavenDB, and I'm the kind of user that is >> responsible for maintaining and deploying sweeping changes along with the >> authority to decide what softwares I'm going to purchase for myself and for >> my team. I'm not the user you want things to be difficult for because if I >> find things needlessly difficult and I've been one of the longest running >> RavenDB users what do you think users who in situations similar to me are >> going to see? They're going to see a tool that will make their lives more >> difficult because of how much manual package management is still involved >> for maintaining the servers.
>> RavenDB has an incredible story for development. It has a poor story for >> deployment and maintenance. The people who are responsible for deployment >> and maintenance are generally going to be the users who have key decision >> authority (or input) in regards to something as major as a database >> platform, these aren't the people you want to feel like they're the ones >> who have the short end of the stick when compared to how awesome using >> RavenDB is.
>> On Monday, April 16, 2012 4:18:07 PM UTC-4, Damian Hickey wrote:
>>> The RavenDB.Database package is designed for plug-in developers and as a >>> dependency for RavenDB.Embedded.
>>> I agree that Raven.Server.exe should be distributed don't think it >>> should be the tools folder of RavenDB.Database, but as separate >>> RavenDB.Server package. Like how xunit ships it's exe's in thexunit.runners<http://nuget.org/packages/xunit.runners>package.
>>> Does OFI (Oren, Fitzchak, Itamar) agree?
>>> On Monday, 16 April 2012 18:20:04 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
>>>> Why does the RavenDB.Database package NOT include Raven.Server.exe?
On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:21:33 PM UTC-4, Itamar Syn-Hershko wrote:
> Chris, assuming it would be shipped there, where would you want it to be > and how would you use it?
Either right in the lib folder or right in the tools folder. Tools folder might be more complicated because of the pathing.
> Long story short - this package is aimed at development, and for > deployment as website (which you asked for).
How would you explain RavenDB.Database is for deploying a website? List all of the steps of the steps that would need to be done starting with install-package.
> We are going to look for ways to ease the deployment/update stories, but > they ought to be consistent and to make sense. R
> Oren doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to try and promote NAppUpdate<https://github.com/synhershko/NAppUpdate>for doing server updates when running from console or as a service (the EXE > file). Take a look at it and let me know if that'd be what you're after.
Now, automatic updates... that's really interesting. I would still want some kind of way to kick off this update process so it could be scheduled for a night time / weekend op. Bonus points if the auto upgrade also automatically creates a full database backup prior to the upgrade.
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Chris Marisic <ch...@marisic.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:21:33 PM UTC-4, Itamar Syn-Hershko wrote:
>> Chris, assuming it would be shipped there, where would you want it to be >> and how would you use it?
> Either right in the lib folder or right in the tools folder. Tools folder > might be more complicated because of the pathing.
That's what we are trying to avoid. It gets messy with the Data, Plugins and Analyzers folders and config docs. You should run the server from a solid path, preferably in RAM during development.
>> Long story short - this package is aimed at development, and for >> deployment as website (which you asked for).
> How would you explain RavenDB.Database is for deploying a website? List > all of the steps of the steps that would need to be done starting with > install-package.
It is essentially the Embedded version, you create a website project side by side with your actual website and you have your database there as website you can deploy (data folder configurable of course). I wouldn't go that route tho.
>> We are going to look for ways to ease the deployment/update stories, but >> they ought to be consistent and to make sense. R
>> Oren doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to try and promote NAppUpdate<https://github.com/synhershko/NAppUpdate>for doing server updates when running from console or as a service (the EXE >> file). Take a look at it and let me know if that'd be what you're after.
> Now, automatic updates... that's really interesting. I would still want > some kind of way to kick off this update process so it could be scheduled > for a night time / weekend op. Bonus points if the auto upgrade also > automatically creates a full database backup prior to the upgrade.
Obviously, we will never do that automatically. That framework lets us define update tasks very easily with backup plans and rollbacks, and kicking them off will be completely manual.
On Tuesday, 17 April 2012 09:08:15 UTC+1, Oren Eini wrote:
> Yes.
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Damian Hickey <dhic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The RavenDB.Database package is designed for plug-in developers and as a >> dependency for RavenDB.Embedded.
>> I agree that Raven.Server.exe should be distributed don't think it should >> be the tools folder of RavenDB.Database, but as separate RavenDB.Server >> package. Like how xunit ships it's exe's in the xunit.runners<http://nuget.org/packages/xunit.runners>package.
>> Does OFI (Oren, Fitzchak, Itamar) agree?
>> On Monday, 16 April 2012 18:20:04 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
>>> Why does the RavenDB.Database package NOT include Raven.Server.exe?
On Tuesday, 17 April 2012 22:33:56 UTC+1, Chris Marisic wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:21:33 PM UTC-4, Itamar Syn-Hershko wrote:
>> Chris, assuming it would be shipped there, where would you want it to be >> and how would you use it?
> Either right in the lib folder or right in the tools folder. Tools folder > might be more complicated because of the pathing.
>> Long story short - this package is aimed at development, and for >> deployment as website (which you asked for).
> How would you explain RavenDB.Database is for deploying a website? List > all of the steps of the steps that would need to be done starting with > install-package.
Install-Package RavenDB.AspNetHost ?
For test projects, Install-Package RavenDB.Embedded.
>> We are going to look for ways to ease the deployment/update stories, but >> they ought to be consistent and to make sense. R
>> Oren doesn't know it yet, but I'm going to try and promote NAppUpdate<https://github.com/synhershko/NAppUpdate>for doing server updates when running from console or as a service (the EXE >> file). Take a look at it and let me know if that'd be what you're after.
> Now, automatic updates... that's really interesting. I would still want > some kind of way to kick off this update process so it could be scheduled > for a night time / weekend op. Bonus points if the auto upgrade also > automatically creates a full database backup prior to the upgrade.
Something will go wrong with that. Imagine if a SQL server did the same thing? Sys-admins would have a conniption. It should be automated, but not automatic.
