RavenDB on Windows Azure

[Ben]

Following the launch of the new Windows Azure Features, are there plans to offer RavenDB as a native storage solution within Azure or perhaps provide guidance on running RavenDB in an Azure Virtual Machine?

[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

Yes, we intend to have RavenHQ running on Azure.

[Matt Johnson]

That's great, but what about those of us that need to run RavenDB in
our own Azure accounts?

I've seen a few blog posts about RavenDB on Azure, so I know that it
will work - but I'm curious to what guidance you can provide in terms
of best practices. For example, running RavenDB on Azure Worker Roles
with an attached cloud drive, vs running a full Virtual Machine.

Also, it would be great if there were some performance metrics, and
guidance around replication in the cloud.

I would love it if some day it were just as easy to spin up a new
RavenDB instance as it is to add a SQL Azure database.

Thanks,
Matt

On Jun 9, 7:20 am, "Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)" <aye...@ayende.com>
wrote:

[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

The basic process is to do this using a Cloud Drive, and that is pretty much it, there are several scenarios 

For example: 

https://github.com/dimajanzen/RavenDb.Azure

https://github.com/anton-iermolenko/Azure-IIS-Hosted-RavenDb 

I would probably go with a full VM.

Note that you'll have Azure RavenDB instances, via RavenHQ, which would be just as easy as SQL Azure.

[Phil Jones]

Interested too in using RavenDB on Azure but not too keen on using
RavenHQ, mainly because:

1. I now have three tenants for my client's app. Three RavenHQ
databases?
2. I have multiple applications accessing those three tenants
3. EU data laws (guessing would be solved on azure?)

From what you wrote, you suggest using a new "persistent" VM to run
RavenDB? And using say web workers to host the actual IIS site that
talks to the VM to access RavenDB?

On Jun 10, 10:56 am, "Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)" <aye...@ayende.com>
wrote:

> The basic process is to do this using a Cloud Drive, and that is pretty
> much it, there are several scenarios
>

> For example:https://github.com/dimajanzen/RavenDb.Azurehttps://github.com/anton-iermolenko/Azure-IIS-Hosted-RavenDb

[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

inline

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Phil Jones <phil.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interested too in using RavenDB on Azure but not too keen on using
RavenHQ, mainly because:

1. I now have three tenants for my client's app. Three RavenHQ
databases?

Yes

 

2. I have multiple applications accessing those three tenants

And... ?

 

3. EU data laws (guessing would be solved on azure?)

We will probably have Azure EU option as well.

 

From what you wrote, you suggest using a new "persistent" VM to run
RavenDB? And using say web workers to host the actual IIS site that
talks to the VM to access RavenDB?

Yes, or just put it all on the same site.

The problem with Azure is that there are a lot of options and discussing what exactly to do depend on a lot of factors.

[Alexander Zeitler]

As I'm reading often about the "EU data law", "Patriot act" etc., here a document who explains it in deep.

EN version:
http://www.noerr.com/en/PortalData/1/Resources/8_broschueren_newsletter/Noerr_US_Patriot_Act-en.pdf

DE version:
http://www.noerr.com/de/PortalData/1/Resources/8_broschueren_newsletter/Noerr_US_Patriot_Act.pdf

Alex
________________________________________
From: rav...@googlegroups.com [rav...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Phil Jones [phil.j...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:31 PM
To: ravendb
Subject: [RavenDB] Re: RavenDB on Windows Azure

[Sean Kearon]

I hope I'm wrong, but I do not think that Azure guarantees that your data will remain in a given geographical region.  If this is still the case then it doesn't fit with the EU data protection laws.  Some reading here.

[Sean Kearon]

Have just had a tweet from the author of that article, and it looks like the situation hasn't changed.  That just rules out Azure for any EU personal data (unless you capture the user's consent for their data to be shipped around the world!). Not good!!!

[Bryan Johns]

One of the drawbacks of nanny state governments. Government regulation
almost always does more harm than good.

--
Bryan Johns
K4GDW

"And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye
shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for
the multitude of fishes." --John 21:6

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rav...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rav...@googlegroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Sean Kearon
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:25 AM
> To: rav...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RavenDB] Re: RavenDB on Windows Azure
>
> Have just had a tweet from the author

> <http://www.pcpro.co.uk/author/253589/jon-honeyball> of that article,

> and it looks like the situation hasn't changed. That just rules out
> Azure for any EU personal data (unless you capture the user's consent
> for their data to be shipped around the world!). Not good!!!
>
>

> <https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-
> pG5AzJHB42Q/T9S8LVErAkI/AAAAAAAABD0/9bwyXlsmvrU/s1600/10-06-2012+16-21-
> 28.png>

>
>
> On Sunday, June 10, 2012 4:06:54 PM UTC+1, Sean Kearon wrote:
>
> I hope I'm wrong, but I do not think that Azure guarantees that
> your data will remain in a given geographical region. If this is still
> the case then it doesn't fit with the EU data protection laws. Some

> reading here <http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/350645/the-truth-about-
> microsoft-azure-and-where-your-data-will-be-kept> .

[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

That is surprising if only because of the cost of actually moving the data cross the ocean.

[Chris Marisic]

Oren, I'd be willing to bet in practice the data NEVER crosses the ocean. But the cost associated to GUARANTEE anything is always absurdly high. So Microsoft just went with the CYA policy and wouldn't promise it in case some arcane set of failures in the EU centers triggers a recovery policy that could send the data across.

[Chris Marisic]

FWIW if I lived in EU and was building the same kinds of software I am in the US, I'd still build with azure anyway. The key thing is someone would have to PROVE at some point that it actually occurred not just theoretically occurred, which I find to be nigh impossible.

[Sean Kearon]

Chris - yes, I agree with you that it is very unlikely.  However, the reason that not having a guarantee rules out using Azure for any personal data is that body that polices data protection in the UK (the ICO) can impose significantly large fines.  And, they actively do just that to stop people ignoring them!  That isn't a risk I want to take.  

Also, doing the work to make sure my user's data is protected within the EU is enough pain - I not need the extra pain to do the work to allow it to be shipped around outside the EU.  

It's a real shame as Azure is an attractive platform.  However, it's Amazon or AppHarbor all the way for me until they sort this out!

[Chris Marisic]

I see Azure as extremely risk mitigating. It fundamentally comes down to "do you expect I can do security right? or do you expect one of the largest corporations on this planet with one of the deepest investments into security ever made that has entire office buildings of teams that built the security for azure to do it right?". Especially when coupled with transparent data encryption (aka bitlocker) , which apparently isn't a feature supported by amazon.

[Sean Kearon]

From the technical perspective, yes, absolutely agree.  From the information management perspective, I'm afraid that Azure is nowhere near.  Sadly, all it would take is a simple change in the terms and conditions.

BTW, Amazon does encrypt.

[Matt Johnson]

I'm not super familiar with the EU law, but Microsoft does seem to
have addressed at least part of it in regards to Azure:

See the lower half of this page:
http://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/support/trust-center/privacy/

Does this resolve the concern? Or is there more to it?

-Matt

On Jun 11, 6:45 am, Sean Kearon <kearon.s...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> From the technical perspective, yes, absolutely agree.  From the
> information management perspective, I'm afraid that Azure is nowhere near.
>  Sadly, all it would take is a simple change in the terms and conditions.
>

> BTW, Amazon does encrypt<http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2011/10/04/amazon-s3-announ...>
> .

[Sean Kearon]

Matt - thanks for pointing that out.  It's very interesting and does indeed sound like it may be what's needed.  Importantly, they guarantee only shipping to the US and not to an arbitrary location.  I've just emailed the people I use for data protection work and will post back when I get a response from them (probably a good few days).

Thanks again!

[Nigel Ainscoe]

Just want to get my head round this. Is it your intention that I can buy a RavenHQ subscription running on Azure in a European Datacentre, build my app locally, access RavenHQ as my database for dev and test, and then when I'm ready, deploy my app as an Azure web app?
(I realize I may have to wait a short time before the Azure hosted RavenHQ is available)

[Nigel Ainscoe]

I spoke to some pretty senior Microsoft people the other day and they said - I paraphrase: "it is safe for you to assume that we take this very seriously and we will ensure that our data security policies fully comply with EU data protection law"

[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

Yes, that is what I meant.

Worse case scenario, you run in prod with RavenHQ in EC2, instead of Azure. Not a big deal.

[Nigel Ainscoe]

Thanks, I'll give it a try.

--
Kind regards,
Nigel Ainscoe

http://uk.linkedin.com/in/nigelainscoe

@nigelainscoe

[Sean Kearon]

Just to update this thread about the data protection consequences of the Azure clause of shipping data outside of the EU.  

I've done some more research and it appears that Azure does comply with EU data protection law.  As Microsoft comply with the EU/US Safe Harbor Framework, the data can be considered to remain solely within the EU geographic region.  More info on my blog here:

http://kearon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/does-windows-azure-comply-with-ukeu.html