PBP Video Online
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Eric Norris
Feb 9, 2012, 10:26:11 PM2/9/12
to randon
The PBP 2011 video, with English subtitles, is now available online:
Enjoy.
--Eric N
Susan Otcenas
Feb 9, 2012, 10:33:53 PM2/9/12
to randon
Day late and a dollar short....
But, should your travels be taking you to Europe or farther afield this
fall, you might like to know that GORE BIKE WEAR will be producing an
EN1150 certified vest for sale here in the United States. Windstopper,
tons of reflectivity, Mens AND WOMEN'S sizes, pockets, etc. It'll be
available in August. TE will, of course, be carrying the women's
version. The boys can fend for themselves elsewhere. (Though, if you
talk nice to my customer service staff, they will special order one for
you. :-)
Susan
***********************************************
Susan Otcenas
Team Estrogen, Inc.
www.TeamEstrogen.com
877-310-4592
***********************************************
Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
Look for "teamestrogen.com"
***********************************************
Hamish Moffatt
Feb 9, 2012, 10:45:02 PM2/9/12
to randon
On Thu, Feb 09, 2012 at 07:26:11PM -0800, Eric Norris wrote:
> The PBP 2011 video, with English subtitles, is now available online:
>
> http://youtu.be/d5xsPcabCmc
> The PBP 2011 video, with English subtitles, is now available online:
>
> http://youtu.be/d5xsPcabCmc
Is this acceptable with regard to copyright?
Hamish
Steve Palincsar
Feb 10, 2012, 9:36:45 AM2/10/12
to Susan Otcenas, randon
On Thu, 2012-02-09 at 19:33 -0800, Susan Otcenas wrote:
> Day late and a dollar short....
>
> But, should your travels be taking you to Europe or farther afield this
> fall, you might like to know that GORE BIKE WEAR will be producing an
> EN1150 certified vest for sale here in the United States. Windstopper,
> tons of reflectivity, Mens AND WOMEN'S sizes, pockets, etc. It'll be
> available in August. TE will, of course, be carrying the women's
> version. The boys can fend for themselves elsewhere. (Though, if you
> talk nice to my customer service staff, they will special order one for
> you. :-)
> Day late and a dollar short....
>
> But, should your travels be taking you to Europe or farther afield this
> fall, you might like to know that GORE BIKE WEAR will be producing an
> EN1150 certified vest for sale here in the United States. Windstopper,
> tons of reflectivity, Mens AND WOMEN'S sizes, pockets, etc. It'll be
> available in August. TE will, of course, be carrying the women's
> version. The boys can fend for themselves elsewhere. (Though, if you
> talk nice to my customer service staff, they will special order one for
> you. :-)
Other than certification by virtue of meeting the standard, do these
vests actually perform any better than the vests we've been using, that
don't meet the EN1150 standard?
russell...@yahoo.com
Feb 10, 2012, 10:00:24 AM2/10/12
to randon
Not to rain on your parade, but you mention the vest being from
Windstopper. Which means its a wind vest. Not a mesh vest. Sounds
like this would be good for cool spring or late fall rides. But in
the middle of the summer I sure would not wear a wind vest. I'm
trying to stay cool on summer rides. Not get extra hot.
Still the best reflective vest I've ever seen.
http://www.ok-1safety.com/indiv-Product.aspx?catid=1&styleid=7
Windstopper. Which means its a wind vest. Not a mesh vest. Sounds
like this would be good for cool spring or late fall rides. But in
the middle of the summer I sure would not wear a wind vest. I'm
trying to stay cool on summer rides. Not get extra hot.
Still the best reflective vest I've ever seen.
http://www.ok-1safety.com/indiv-Product.aspx?catid=1&styleid=7
NickBull
Feb 10, 2012, 11:53:17 AM2/10/12
to randon
Hi, Russell,
I agree, Windstopper sounds like a show stopper for me, since I
already have a PBP vest and if I were to get another vest, I'd want
something mesh for summer use.
I'm curious how well the safety vest you linked to works "in action"
for cyclists. Based on the picture, it seems that the reflective band
is at about chest height, so I would have thought that a cyclist
leaning forward at a typical ~45 degree angle would have the
reflective stripe pointing upwards, not perpendicularly back toward
motorists. And it doesn't look like it hangs down over your butt, so
there would not be a portion of the vest that is perpendicular to the
car's headlights. And for cyclists wearing a hydration pack, the
reflective stripe is covered.
The PBP safety vest, for all that it has some faults (no pockets,
fabric is too thick for summer use) hangs down well over your butt and
has vertical reflective stripes there which are effective in making
cyclists visible, plus a hydration pack typically hangs between the
stripes so that it does not obscure them. For example, see
http://dcrand.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/yellow_back.jpg
On PBP this time around, I found that riders were much more visible
than in 2007 because of the required EN1150 reflective gear, which
nearly everyone complied with by buying the vest specified by the PBP
organizers.
Nick
On Feb 10, 10:00 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
I agree, Windstopper sounds like a show stopper for me, since I
already have a PBP vest and if I were to get another vest, I'd want
something mesh for summer use.
I'm curious how well the safety vest you linked to works "in action"
for cyclists. Based on the picture, it seems that the reflective band
is at about chest height, so I would have thought that a cyclist
leaning forward at a typical ~45 degree angle would have the
reflective stripe pointing upwards, not perpendicularly back toward
motorists. And it doesn't look like it hangs down over your butt, so
there would not be a portion of the vest that is perpendicular to the
car's headlights. And for cyclists wearing a hydration pack, the
reflective stripe is covered.
The PBP safety vest, for all that it has some faults (no pockets,
fabric is too thick for summer use) hangs down well over your butt and
has vertical reflective stripes there which are effective in making
cyclists visible, plus a hydration pack typically hangs between the
stripes so that it does not obscure them. For example, see
http://dcrand.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/yellow_back.jpg
On PBP this time around, I found that riders were much more visible
than in 2007 because of the required EN1150 reflective gear, which
nearly everyone complied with by buying the vest specified by the PBP
organizers.
Nick
On Feb 10, 10:00 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not to rain on your parade, but you mention the vest being from
> Windstopper. Which means its a wind vest. Not a mesh vest. Sounds
> like this would be good for cool spring or late fall rides. But in
> the middle of the summer I sure would not wear a wind vest. I'm
> trying to stay cool on summer rides. Not get extra hot.
>
> Still the best reflective vest I've ever seen.http://www.ok-1safety.com/indiv-Product.aspx?catid=1&styleid=7
> Not to rain on your parade, but you mention the vest being from
> Windstopper. Which means its a wind vest. Not a mesh vest. Sounds
> like this would be good for cool spring or late fall rides. But in
> the middle of the summer I sure would not wear a wind vest. I'm
> trying to stay cool on summer rides. Not get extra hot.
>
russell...@yahoo.com
Feb 10, 2012, 12:15:00 PM2/10/12
to randon
I think the vest I linked to works pretty well. Its reflective
stripes are wide and reflective. They are plastic and appear to
reflect even at an angle. I don't think they need to be perfectly
vertical to be reflective. And the vest is bright yellow so that adds
lots of visibility. The vertical stripes over the shoulders are
10.25" wide from inside edge to inside edge. Camelbak should fit in
between. I put one of those reflective triangles on the back of my
Camelbak to add visibility. Stripes are 2" wide on the vest. Stripes
go all around the vest, front and back and over the top. Lower
horizontal stripe is roughly in the small of the back when bent over
about 45 degrees. When wearing the vest and standing upright, it
hangs down an inch or two below waist level. This is the Small size
vest because the larger sizes are way too large to wear. They are
designed to go over coats and jackets so are excessively big if worn
over a cycling jersey. If buying one, get a small size. The vest is
made by the company OK-1. Which makes safety clothes for construction
workers, etc. So its not cheaply, poorly made just to sell. It is
made for a real market that buys safety equipment and expects them to
actually work.
> > > ***********************************************- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
stripes are wide and reflective. They are plastic and appear to
reflect even at an angle. I don't think they need to be perfectly
vertical to be reflective. And the vest is bright yellow so that adds
lots of visibility. The vertical stripes over the shoulders are
10.25" wide from inside edge to inside edge. Camelbak should fit in
between. I put one of those reflective triangles on the back of my
Camelbak to add visibility. Stripes are 2" wide on the vest. Stripes
go all around the vest, front and back and over the top. Lower
horizontal stripe is roughly in the small of the back when bent over
about 45 degrees. When wearing the vest and standing upright, it
hangs down an inch or two below waist level. This is the Small size
vest because the larger sizes are way too large to wear. They are
designed to go over coats and jackets so are excessively big if worn
over a cycling jersey. If buying one, get a small size. The vest is
made by the company OK-1. Which makes safety clothes for construction
workers, etc. So its not cheaply, poorly made just to sell. It is
made for a real market that buys safety equipment and expects them to
actually work.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Susan Otcenas
Feb 10, 2012, 12:48:10 PM2/10/12
to randon
>>Not to rain on your parade, but you mention the vest being from Windstopper. Which means its a wind vest. Not a mesh vest. Sounds like this would be good for cool spring or late fall rides. But in the middle of the summer I sure would not wear a wind vest. I'm trying to stay cool on summer rides. Not get extra hot.
Yeah, which is why I wrote: "should your travels be taking you to Europe or farther afield THIS FALL..."
Though, when you live in Oregon like I do, Windstopper is a year-round brevet fabric. Once the sun goes down, its chilly 'round these parts no matter what the season.
Someone else asked: >>Other than certification by virtue of meeting the standard, do these vests actually perform any better than the vests we've been using, that don't meet the EN1150 standard?
Well, I don't know what you've been using. My post was just to let you know that there's an EN1150 alternative to the PBP-issued vests now soon to be easily available in the US. The PBP-issue vests are, IMO, garbage. The fabric is awful with no real technical benefit, its scratchy (that neck binding is the worst), it's hot, and the fit is miserable for women. It *is* quite bright though, but other than it's "souvenir value" it's not something I think I'll ever wear. Gore Windstopper, otoh, rocks.
Susan
***********************************************
Susan Otcenas
Team Estrogen, Inc.
www.TeamEstrogen.com
877-310-4592
***********************************************
Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
Look for "teamestrogen.com"
***********************************************
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NickBull
Feb 10, 2012, 1:11:35 PM2/10/12
to randon
Hi, Russell,
I think safety triangles are highly effective. In fact, I think that
the single item that has most impact on my visibility is the safety
triangle that I have hanging off my Carradice. When I'm riding with
friends who have the same setup, I've noticed that it makes them
highly visible even in the daytime, even when they're a half-mile or
so ahead.
Have a good and safe rando season!
Nick
On Feb 10, 12:15 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
I think safety triangles are highly effective. In fact, I think that
the single item that has most impact on my visibility is the safety
triangle that I have hanging off my Carradice. When I'm riding with
friends who have the same setup, I've noticed that it makes them
highly visible even in the daytime, even when they're a half-mile or
so ahead.
Have a good and safe rando season!
Nick
On Feb 10, 12:15 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
Chris Cullum
Feb 10, 2012, 3:15:42 PM2/10/12
to randon
seemed much more visible than what we generally use here on a typical
NA brevet. I have continued to use my vest here because I think it is
a better solution than what I was using before. I have bin full of
belts, vests, straps that are all fairly lame in some respect.
Where is the info about the EN1150 certified Gore Bike Wear vest?
Eric Norris
Feb 10, 2012, 3:20:53 PM2/10/12
to Chris Cullum, randon
I have a digital photo frame on my desk loaded with a variety of pictures, including a number from PBP in 2007 and 2011. The 2011 photos are instantly recognizable by the bright yellow vests that everyone was wearing. Riders in '11 were definitely more visible than they were four years earlier.
I, too, continue to use my PBP vest on my nighttime rides.
--Eric N
Eric Keller
Feb 10, 2012, 3:50:32 PM2/10/12
to randon
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Eric Norris <campyo...@me.com> wrote:
I'm commuting in mine now, it's far superior to the RUSA sash I was using before. I thing the official vest was the best I saw, I didn't think that much of the MAVIC vest, and they should have pulled the one guy I saw in the Rapha vest. The Rapha vest was a joke, he was barely visible. I have a digital photo frame on my desk loaded with a variety of pictures, including a number from PBP in 2007 and 2011. The 2011 photos are instantly recognizable by the bright yellow vests that everyone was wearing. Riders in '11 were definitely more visible than they were four years earlier.
I, too, continue to use my PBP vest on my nighttime rides.
--Eric N
Susan Otcenas
Feb 10, 2012, 4:12:55 PM2/10/12
to randon
Not available until August 2012. Details will be on the website when we receive it.
***********************************************
Susan Otcenas
Team Estrogen, Inc.
www.TeamEstrogen.com
877-310-4592
***********************************************
Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
Look for "teamestrogen.com"
***********************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Cullum
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:16 PM
To: randon
Subject: [Randon] Re: EN1150 vests
--
WMdeR
Feb 10, 2012, 7:27:34 PM2/10/12
to randon
Dear Steve,
The RUSA/ACP/PBP event hi-vis vests performed their stated function
better than the solutions I've seen at domestic brevets other than
Reflexite DOT-style vests.
I wasn't at PBP in 2007, but if you had your headlight turned on, you
saw folks at night. Headlights have improved immensely since 2007 as
well. Even the cheap ones are better than the pretty-good lights from
prior to the high-power LED revolution. Riding against the crowd
coming out of Brest, in the fog and rain, told the tale. You could
tell the ones who had halogen systems (dim yellow things they were),
and the ones who had chosen high-output lights with symmetrical beams.
I stand behind my mixed review of the L2s vests--they do two things
well (reflect and be visible in low light), but they're bulky, not
terribly well-fitted, absorb water, and aren't windproof but are still
kinda stuffy. A bulky single-purpose garment? I kept mine, as a
souvenir, but for riding? Time to seek alternatives. I used the
(then) hard-to-find Mavic Vision vest, which was windproof, fitted,
compact, and still was an adequate aid to conspicuity. I'll look
forward to the Gore product.
Moving afield, the only darkriders I saw there were too many folks
eking out the last bit of power from their battery lights on the third
night, and a few riders with non-standard vests (like that ineffective
pink Rapha vest) that must have just either squeaked through the
inspection, or who used a different hi-vis solution at the event than
at inspection. I don't think I saw a generator-powered solution that
went sour on the road.
Cheers,
Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO
The RUSA/ACP/PBP event hi-vis vests performed their stated function
better than the solutions I've seen at domestic brevets other than
Reflexite DOT-style vests.
I wasn't at PBP in 2007, but if you had your headlight turned on, you
saw folks at night. Headlights have improved immensely since 2007 as
well. Even the cheap ones are better than the pretty-good lights from
prior to the high-power LED revolution. Riding against the crowd
coming out of Brest, in the fog and rain, told the tale. You could
tell the ones who had halogen systems (dim yellow things they were),
and the ones who had chosen high-output lights with symmetrical beams.
I stand behind my mixed review of the L2s vests--they do two things
well (reflect and be visible in low light), but they're bulky, not
terribly well-fitted, absorb water, and aren't windproof but are still
kinda stuffy. A bulky single-purpose garment? I kept mine, as a
souvenir, but for riding? Time to seek alternatives. I used the
(then) hard-to-find Mavic Vision vest, which was windproof, fitted,
compact, and still was an adequate aid to conspicuity. I'll look
forward to the Gore product.
Moving afield, the only darkriders I saw there were too many folks
eking out the last bit of power from their battery lights on the third
night, and a few riders with non-standard vests (like that ineffective
pink Rapha vest) that must have just either squeaked through the
inspection, or who used a different hi-vis solution at the event than
at inspection. I don't think I saw a generator-powered solution that
went sour on the road.
Cheers,
Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO
Chris Heg
Feb 10, 2012, 10:16:10 PM2/10/12
to randon
I really like the PBP vests for visibility but didn't care much for
the fit. FWIW, I modified my RUSA PBP vest in the following ways:
Removed the stretch fabric edging from the neck, folded the collar
over and sewed it to 1/2 the height. That helped a lot with the neck
irritation.
Put mesh panels in the shoulders and the upper back to improve
ventilation. Helps some.
Sewed the loose inner flap on the pocket access holes so I can get my
hand in and out without tangling, even with gloves on.
Added a mesh pocket on the lower back with 3M reflective fabric
edging.
Removed most of the stretch fabric edging from the waist and arm holes
and replaced it with non-stretchy cloth so it doesn't bunch and ride
up .
Point is you have the option of making it what you would like it to be
if you can tolerate the fabric properties
I did see some very marginal vests on the road at PBP but most people
were very visible. The downside was that everyone looked pretty much
the same at night, you couldn't tell who was around you.
the fit. FWIW, I modified my RUSA PBP vest in the following ways:
Removed the stretch fabric edging from the neck, folded the collar
over and sewed it to 1/2 the height. That helped a lot with the neck
irritation.
Put mesh panels in the shoulders and the upper back to improve
ventilation. Helps some.
Sewed the loose inner flap on the pocket access holes so I can get my
hand in and out without tangling, even with gloves on.
Added a mesh pocket on the lower back with 3M reflective fabric
edging.
Removed most of the stretch fabric edging from the waist and arm holes
and replaced it with non-stretchy cloth so it doesn't bunch and ride
up .
Point is you have the option of making it what you would like it to be
if you can tolerate the fabric properties
I did see some very marginal vests on the road at PBP but most people
were very visible. The downside was that everyone looked pretty much
the same at night, you couldn't tell who was around you.
roadijeff
Feb 11, 2012, 6:05:01 PM2/11/12
to randon
For PBP 2011 I bought an orange EN1150 certified vest at a popular
sporting goods and apparel store near where I was staying at the Hotel
Campanile. It is 100% polyester and not too hot. The fit is great
and I will bring it back with me in 3 1/2 years.
At bike check-in the inspector gave me some grief about the color. He
said the rider vests all had to be green, "as stated in the rules",
and that my orange one was not permitted. I pedaled back to my hotel,
obtained the right color and passed the inspection. During PBP I wore
my orange vest and no one complained.
After I got back home I searched for anything in the rules that they'd
sent me and I could not find anything that says our safety vests had
to be a certain color. I emailed the ACP about it and I received
apology, saying that their inspection officials are volunteers and
they sometime make mistakes.
Anyway, if they try giving any of you a hard time about you EN1150
safety vest being the wrong color in future PBP events ask them to
show where it says that in the official rules. I plan to.
sporting goods and apparel store near where I was staying at the Hotel
Campanile. It is 100% polyester and not too hot. The fit is great
and I will bring it back with me in 3 1/2 years.
At bike check-in the inspector gave me some grief about the color. He
said the rider vests all had to be green, "as stated in the rules",
and that my orange one was not permitted. I pedaled back to my hotel,
obtained the right color and passed the inspection. During PBP I wore
my orange vest and no one complained.
After I got back home I searched for anything in the rules that they'd
sent me and I could not find anything that says our safety vests had
to be a certain color. I emailed the ACP about it and I received
apology, saying that their inspection officials are volunteers and
they sometime make mistakes.
Anyway, if they try giving any of you a hard time about you EN1150
safety vest being the wrong color in future PBP events ask them to
show where it says that in the official rules. I plan to.
Susan Otcenas
Feb 13, 2012, 1:11:08 PM2/13/12
to randon
So, basically, you rebuilt it? ;-) I considered it, but ended up with
the Mavic vest instead. The only mod I had to make to that one was
adding two triangular inserts from the waist to hip (so that it wouldn't
ride up. This curvy girl has hips!
Susan
***********************************************
Susan Otcenas
Team Estrogen, Inc.
www.TeamEstrogen.com
877-310-4592
***********************************************
Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
Look for "teamestrogen.com"
***********************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Chris Heg
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 7:16 PM
To: randon
Subject: [Randon] Re: EN1150 vests
Lisa Susan McPhate
Feb 13, 2012, 6:48:46 PM2/13/12
to randon
Do you have one of these mesh reflective vests? I have questions
regarding sizing. What size did you get and what size do you wear in
a mens jersey size? I wear mens small jerseys, medium if very tight
race cut.
regarding sizing. What size did you get and what size do you wear in
a mens jersey size? I wear mens small jerseys, medium if very tight
race cut.
-lisa-susan mcphate, oakland, ca
Chris Heg
Feb 14, 2012, 12:50:31 AM2/14/12
to randon
No, I just customized it ;-)
russell...@yahoo.com
Feb 14, 2012, 10:11:50 AM2/14/12
to randon
Yes I have one of these mesh OK-1 reflective jerseys. I wear size
medium mens jerseys. The Smallest size, S/M size vest. It fits
well. Still loose on me but not too loose. It will go over a wind
jacket I might wear. These are made for male construction/road crew
workers. Maybe wearing heavy coats in cold weather. They are made
big to fit over other bulky clothes. Unless you are a very big man
NEEDING an XL jersey, stick with the S/M size.
On Feb 13, 5:48 pm, Lisa Susan McPhate <mcph...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Do you have one of these mesh reflective vests? I have questions
> regarding sizing. What size did you get and what size do you wear in
> a mens jersey size? I wear mens small jerseys, medium if very tight
> race cut.
>
> -lisa-susan mcphate, oakland, ca
>
> > .- Hide quoted text -
medium mens jerseys. The Smallest size, S/M size vest. It fits
well. Still loose on me but not too loose. It will go over a wind
jacket I might wear. These are made for male construction/road crew
workers. Maybe wearing heavy coats in cold weather. They are made
big to fit over other bulky clothes. Unless you are a very big man
NEEDING an XL jersey, stick with the S/M size.
On Feb 13, 5:48 pm, Lisa Susan McPhate <mcph...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Do you have one of these mesh reflective vests? I have questions
> regarding sizing. What size did you get and what size do you wear in
> a mens jersey size? I wear mens small jerseys, medium if very tight
> race cut.
>
> -lisa-susan mcphate, oakland, ca
>
WillemJ
Feb 18, 2012, 5:29:07 AM2/18/12
to randon
I have posted on this before, because the official standards matter.
The EN1150 is the lowest European standard. It is not for professional
use, but for sporting activities, for the obligatory vest in your car,
and it is also the standard to comply with French legislation on
cycling at night or in low visibility conditions. That is why the
organizers have to use this standard. Vests that meet this standard
are mostly cheap and nasty 5 dollar ones that you can buy at gas
stations. But they all meet the visibility and reflectivity standard.
That standard specifies, color (not just green, orange is also legal),
durability of the color (an issue with dayglow material), the
reflectivity of the reflective material, and the minimum surface of
the green and reflective areas.
Since most of these vest are awkward, the waiting is for sports
clothing manufacturers to integrate the standard into their clothing
by making cycling jerseys etc that comply with the law/EN1150
standard. The Mavic Vision range was the first to do so, and now Gore
is apparently following with at least some stuff. I have recently
discussed this with some European cycle clothing manufacturers, and I
think more will be coming.
The EN1150 standard is not very demanding, however. For professional
use there are two more stringent EN standards. The lower of the two
can be achieved in professional vests, and quite easily in short
sleeved T shirts etc. The most demanding standard can almost only be
achieved in garments with long sleeves, as these have more surface
area. The professional stuff can be bought for little money in
workwear stores, and includes mesh vests, long and short sleeved T
shirts, polo shirts, but also fleece sweaters, and rain jackets. Not
all of this makes great sports clothing, but some of it is quite
usable. And it is dirt cheap. For US riders the snag is that the
professional European standards are marginally different from the
professional ANSI standards. However, since these professional
standards are so much more demanding than the EN1150 standard, all
professional ANSI stuff is significantly better than EN 1150 even if
it may not be certified. Since the EN and ANSI standards are in
reality almost identical, many international suppliers of workwear
certify their stuff to comply with both EN and ANSI. And as I said,
all professional stuff is much better than EN1150.
Willem
On Feb 14, 4:11 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
The EN1150 is the lowest European standard. It is not for professional
use, but for sporting activities, for the obligatory vest in your car,
and it is also the standard to comply with French legislation on
cycling at night or in low visibility conditions. That is why the
organizers have to use this standard. Vests that meet this standard
are mostly cheap and nasty 5 dollar ones that you can buy at gas
stations. But they all meet the visibility and reflectivity standard.
That standard specifies, color (not just green, orange is also legal),
durability of the color (an issue with dayglow material), the
reflectivity of the reflective material, and the minimum surface of
the green and reflective areas.
Since most of these vest are awkward, the waiting is for sports
clothing manufacturers to integrate the standard into their clothing
by making cycling jerseys etc that comply with the law/EN1150
standard. The Mavic Vision range was the first to do so, and now Gore
is apparently following with at least some stuff. I have recently
discussed this with some European cycle clothing manufacturers, and I
think more will be coming.
The EN1150 standard is not very demanding, however. For professional
use there are two more stringent EN standards. The lower of the two
can be achieved in professional vests, and quite easily in short
sleeved T shirts etc. The most demanding standard can almost only be
achieved in garments with long sleeves, as these have more surface
area. The professional stuff can be bought for little money in
workwear stores, and includes mesh vests, long and short sleeved T
shirts, polo shirts, but also fleece sweaters, and rain jackets. Not
all of this makes great sports clothing, but some of it is quite
usable. And it is dirt cheap. For US riders the snag is that the
professional European standards are marginally different from the
professional ANSI standards. However, since these professional
standards are so much more demanding than the EN1150 standard, all
professional ANSI stuff is significantly better than EN 1150 even if
it may not be certified. Since the EN and ANSI standards are in
reality almost identical, many international suppliers of workwear
certify their stuff to comply with both EN and ANSI. And as I said,
all professional stuff is much better than EN1150.
Willem
On Feb 14, 4:11 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
Ken Freeman
Feb 18, 2012, 5:53:08 AM2/18/12
to WillemJ, randon
Willem, as someone who's written an ISO standard in my career, I really appreciate this summary. I'm worried about a possible hitch. Do the event rules require a vest that meets and is certified to EN1150, or one that meets and is certified to at least EN1150? And are the event officials aware of the "pecking order" of the various available vests? Problem is that as a US rider and knowing that pro gear works better than 1150, I'd want to bring my own professional ANSI garment if I can find one that works for cycling. But will the PBP officials reject them as being different, even though they are better?--
Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA
Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA
WillemJ
Feb 18, 2012, 8:04:50 AM2/18/12
to randon, kenfre...@gmail.com
I did not check, but my memory is that the higher EN standards
automatically include the lower ones, so one would be fine there. This
of course assumes that PBP officials know the law and the standards. I
really do not know if they do. If you want to be absolutely inside the
law, I guess your US ANSI vest or jersey should also be certified to
the EN standard. I know e.g. Helly Hansen does this, and there also
others. Technically the differences are small enough, it is just the
additional cost of another certification. For a company that only
supplies the US market this is not worth it. An international company
like Helly Hansen quite simply has to offer this. In terms of your
skin rather than French law, any professional ANSI vest will be fine,
and in fact better than EN 1150. My hunch is that PBP officials will
not check the sewn in label but recognize you have a really good
garment. Or did they check?
Willem
automatically include the lower ones, so one would be fine there. This
of course assumes that PBP officials know the law and the standards. I
really do not know if they do. If you want to be absolutely inside the
law, I guess your US ANSI vest or jersey should also be certified to
the EN standard. I know e.g. Helly Hansen does this, and there also
others. Technically the differences are small enough, it is just the
additional cost of another certification. For a company that only
supplies the US market this is not worth it. An international company
like Helly Hansen quite simply has to offer this. In terms of your
skin rather than French law, any professional ANSI vest will be fine,
and in fact better than EN 1150. My hunch is that PBP officials will
not check the sewn in label but recognize you have a really good
garment. Or did they check?
Willem
WillemJ
Feb 18, 2012, 10:00:37 AM2/18/12
to randon
I looked around a bit for more details, and found this in English:
for professional use:
http://www.rema.org.uk/pdf/professional-hivis-advice.pdf
The same website http://www.rema.org.uk/ has a tab for publications
with a document on EN1150 that I cannot link to directly. From what I
read elsewhere, the EU is preparing to amalgamate the EN 1150 and EN
471 standards into one ISO standard in the near future.
Willem
for professional use:
http://www.rema.org.uk/pdf/professional-hivis-advice.pdf
The same website http://www.rema.org.uk/ has a tab for publications
with a document on EN1150 that I cannot link to directly. From what I
read elsewhere, the EU is preparing to amalgamate the EN 1150 and EN
471 standards into one ISO standard in the near future.
Willem
Ken Freeman
Feb 19, 2012, 7:18:32 AM2/19/12
to WillemJ, randon
This new standard will do some good in Europe, presumably. US manufacturers will still have to certify products to the ISO standard. Whether or not that will be an economically feasible process (and hence enable us in the USA to readily buy American-made reflectives for EU events) will depend on what the standard will specify. I hope there are some representatives of the American reflectives industry able to participate in this ISO committee.
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