Re: [RUSA] inclusive language suggestion from "Between Controls" RUSA e-news

[Pam Wright]

Luv you guys and thank you for some great dialog!

Since no other has piped in... I will.  Personally, I identify as a woman and I've been playing in male-dominated games my whole life, "I" call myself a randonneur, a horseman, Chairman (which I do like "Chair" better), an actor (in old days) etc.  May be wrong, but I never saw those words as gender-specific, but as a role.  I'm fine being referenced as randonneuse, horsewoman, Chairwoman, etc. but I also recognize that gender-neutral can benefit us for being MORE inclusive, not less.

When I talk about randonneuring, I don't clarify that there are different words for different genders.  The world sees all of us as demented whack-jobs anyway, so why make it MORE confusing? :)  Personally, I don't feel this sets anything "back" in terms of recognizing people for who they are.  I truly see gender-neutral as more inclusive.  Too often through "his"tory (yes I know the irony) adding a feminine term instantly diminished that person and don't get me riled up about pay inequity, which is 100% gender-biased.  Removing gender from a role removes a lot of the inequity I've dealt with my entire life.  Union workers, pay is the same for job code.   

I'm proud to identify as a female and proud to stand with others who also identify as female....all while being proud to be a randonneur.  I appreciate the dialog and am sure I'm opening myself to a firestorm.  Luckily for me I'm working 70-80hrs/week right now so I don't get on email very much :)

I'm really glad of this big umbrella of like-minded whack-jobs and proud to stand with you while the dialog stays constructive and informative.

Pam Wright

On Friday, December 16, 2022 at 12:17:08 PM CST, Jonathan Howard <tarnishe...@gmail.com> wrote:

My vote is to simply use the term "Randonneur" for everyone and if someone wants to use "Randonneuse" let them, but otherwise everyone is a "Randonneur". 

French is a gendered language, so with the trend to be gender neutral it gets complicated. I'm learning French because although I'll be unable to do PBP this time around (work conflict) I am planning on going to France to ride in another Brevet, and it's been really challenging for me, because English is naturally less gendered. I trip up like crazy in Duolingo. When English is gender specific it's often easy to switch to a more gender neutral option and when it's not the male term is adopted for all. I think that Randonneuring is an instance where that adoption can be made while preserving tradition and being gender neutral.

Thank you all!

Jonathan

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 10:55 AM Andrew Adere <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for your productive comment - best wishes with the bike riding.

Personally I think "Randonneur" is fine and no change needs to be made, especially not based on the French language.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:43 PM R Davis <rjda...@gmail.com> wrote:

I hope this organization does not fall into the bottomless pit of identity. I just want to ride my bike. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 16, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Bill Gobie <gobie...@gmail.com> wrote:



"Rando" is also taking on the colloquial meaning of a random, possibly sketchy person. Which may be somewhat apt.

Bill

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 7:29 AM Greg Merritt <greg.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

…and, if you are considering an organizational name change, something like “Randonneuring USA” might be simplest all around.

Now, the logo — *that* has been a controversial identity issue! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

-Greg

Le ven. 16 déc. 2022 à 07:24, Greg Merritt <greg.m...@gmail.com> a écrit :

Whoa — you’re considering changing the organization’s name?

That “-o” abbreviation convention is very informal, and I don’t think that many organizations would use it in their name.

-Greg

Le ven. 16 déc. 2022 à 07:17, Bill Bryant <bi...@bryant-springsteen.net> a écrit :

One problem: If we adopt “Rando” to be the all-inclusive term, then we have the problem that most Americans will not know how to write it in the plural-- potato vs potatoes.

I’m not sure I’m down with “Randos-USA”

 

Bill Bryant

 

From: <randonn...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg Merritt <greg.m...@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 8:35 PM
Cc: Randonneurs USA <randonn...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [RUSA] inclusive language suggestion from "Between Controls" RUSA e-news

 

I like the simplification, but sometimes it is simpler to know a gender. (SNL Pat?)

 

Thankfully there is nothing simpler -- should circumstances ever arise where it is materially relevant -- to respectfully ask SNL Pat (or, in real life, a fellow Rando) how they are linguistically referenced.

 

When talking to someone, English has the very-handy "you" -- numberless, genderless, and all formalities included.

 

...and, by the way, the word "Rando" is very nice, and fits a very, very French linguistic pattern: resto (restaurant), vélo (vélocipède), dispo (disponible)...etc.....and rando (randonneu.se.r).

 

-Greg

 

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[ROBERT WELSH]

Thank you, Pam and Jonathan for your wonderful perspectives, Gender neutral terms help all of us realize that it doesn’t matter whether we are F or M.  There are still many miles to go before we reach full real gender equity but gender neutral titles and respect are a good step in the right direction.

Cheers

Rob 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 16, 2022, at 4:58 PM, 'Pam Wright' via randon <ran...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Emily O'Brien]

As much as I enjoy the quirks of how other languages deal with gendered words, form plurals, decline nouns and pronouns, etc, I think it's silly to work that hard at trying to bring an additional gendered version of a foreign noun into English - especially when we're already accustomed to using the term "randonneur" to mean anyone who engages in "randonneuring" - which is already a French ending with an English ending tacked on. Are we going to talk about "randonneuseing" too?

English does have the -ess/ -er endings for masculine and feminine versions, but we don't apply the -ess ending universally anyway - even without considering the places where people are making a specific effort to stop using it (as in "waitress" and "actress"). When was the last time you heard anyone talk about a paintress, carpentress, gardeness, workess, managess, cleaness, listeness, talkess, dancess, etc? Not to mention a janitrix (since "janitor" has an -or ending as in Latin, that would imply that it would receive a Latin gendered ending, like "aviatrix" or "dominatrix"). Anyone ever call an exterminatrix?

Since English doesn't have genders for nouns otherwise, those gendered endings don't tend to stick colloquially or sound right unless there's some specific reason why the gendered association has a specific connotation - prince/princess, for example.

So that all makes me think we should just stick with "randonneur" for everyone, since that's what most people say anyway; and society is generally moving away from using the feminine endings we do have natively. And "randonneur" is pretty close to the -er ending anyway.

I tend to think using the word "randonneuse" sounds a tad pretentious anyway.

Emily

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Dill Pickle
... gear for the extra mile

www.dillpicklegear.com
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[Duncan]

Well said Emily,

I agree with you.

.. Duncan

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[Greg]

I'm proud to identify as a female and proud to stand with others who also identify as female....all while being proud to be a randonneur.  I appreciate the dialog and am sure I'm opening myself to a firestorm.

Hi Pam, and everyone,

Many people read expressions like "others who also identify as female" as a shortcut for "others who also identify as female but who are not female."

While I do not expect that you intended this, such expressions are often heard as excluding/othering of trans, nonbinary, and/or gender-fluid people. Discussions of this concept happen often in discussions of this term [which may - or may not! - be considered a slur; deeper dive in this linked wikipedia page].

-Greg

[Jacques Bilinski]

For members with the highest yearly distance the BC Randonneurs have the Iron Butt award and the Iron Buttress award.  

[Duncan]

I guess recumbent riders would not be eligible for the Iron Butt(ress) awards

..Duncan

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