Who Uses a Power Meter for training and on Brevets?

[Joel]

I have a great deal I can take advantage of for a new Powertap and
will be getting one built to use for training - intervals, monitoring
power on training rides, etc. It's one step up from using a HR monitor
which I've used for years. I have a friend (in his 60's) that made an
unbelievable improvement in speed/power and endurance over the last
year focusing on intervals and power zone training rides using an SRM.
Even though he trains for time trials (40K) and masters racing he
kicked my butt when we did a longer ride up in the Sierras at altitude
of 84 miles/8500 ft --- his longest training ride ever. i know it's
the work and not the monitoring device that causes improvement but the
power meter is cool and I love to be distracted by watching data n
rides anyway (HR, cadence, etc, etc0

I'm wondering if any other Randonneurs use a power meter and really
wonder if they use it on brevets to pace themselves.

Does it help pace your effort? Have you found it helps keep you in the
right "zone" better than just watching your heart rate? Do you find it
has enough battery/storage capacity for long brevets - or doesn't the
data storage matter as long as it displays the data for the length of
the ride?

Joel

[Bob Riggs]

I doubt a power meter would be very useful for randonneuring. Maybe
for racing, where seconds can make a big difference. But we sit down
and have a bowl of ice cream while the clock is running!

Some may find them helpful but for me, the expense for even a great
deal would be a great deal more than I'd be comfortable paying. Plus,
once I hooked it up, it would be depressing to see how pathetic my
output really is. I prefer to remain ignorantly blissful, and enjoy
my ice cream.

On Sep 6, 11:21 am, Jan Heine <hein...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I'm wondering if any other Randonneurs use a power meter and really
> >wonder if they use it on brevets to pace themselves.
>

> I use the highly scientific method of "perceived effort" in training
> and events to monitor my heart rate and power output. Before you
> laugh, training manuals now actually do recommend this method, as
> it's quite accurate. (I used to have a heart rate monitor that I won
> at a race way back. After a few months, I could predict my heart rate
> within 5 beats without looking at the readout.)
>
> I calculate distance using a watch and my gear ratio, plus cadence.
> Well, it's not that complicated - I know how fast I am going
> approximately at any time based on the gear I am using, so it's easy
> to calculate how long it will take to the next turn on the cue sheet.
> It keeps my mind alert during those long rides.
>
> Most of all, if I am fatigued and cannot put out much power, I notice
> that myself. A power meter wouldn't help me much, it just would point
> out the obvious: that my power output is down. During PBP, I did not
> need a power meter to realize that I was slowing on the second
> morning. I tried to keep the power and speed up, but I could not. So
> I rode slower until I had recovered. I find listening to my body more
> valuable than any electronic readout.
>
> If you have a hard time with overdoing it early during events and
> running out of steam later, electronic monitoring may help to keep
> your enthusiasm in check.
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> 140 Lakeside Ave #C
> Seattle WA 98122www.bikequarterly.com

[Susan P]

First of all, sorry for the length of this post. I apparently have a
lot of thoughts on this subject.

I've been training with a power meter for 4 years now. It provides so
much more insight into what's going on, I don't want to ride without
it.

Advantages

Here's the advantages to using a power meter, as I see it: (and here
I'm quoting my coach Jeb Stewart at Endurofit.com):

1. Power output is a more reliable measure of work than heart rate.
Many external factors affect heart rate in an adverse way including
heat, humidity, insufficient sleep, and stress. With a power meter,
you see exactly what you have in your legs and your lungs for that
day.

2. Training can be more precise because the power meter gives an
instantaneous measure of your performance. At any time, it's showing
you exactly how much work you're producing. Heart rate, on the other
hand, is your response to the work and your environment. Heart rate
eventually responds to your exertions but there is a lag between your
efforts and when you see an elevated heart rate on your heart rate
monitor. This makes a heart rate monitor rather useless when your
training involves short intervals.

3. Another valuable feature of the power meter is its ability to track
all training data. By saving data on a daily basis, you are able to
build a nice history for yourself.


More thoughts

Comparing your performance at different events is difficult or
impossible if you don't have a power meter. If you're looking for
improvement, you're not going to find it by looking at ride time
alone. Even if the brevets are done on the same course, you could have
head winds one time or extreme heat another time. The power meter
gives you a more complete picture of the ride. For example, perhaps
your ride time is longer this time because of the head winds, but your
power meter tells you that you produced more work and you were able to
sustain a sub-threshold pace for hours - I would consider that a
successful ride even though it took longer to complete because of the
conditions.

Power vs Heart Rate: It's really not a contest; you need to pay
attention to both. When I don't eat and bonk, my power drops off. When
I don't drink and get dehydrated, my heart rate goes up. When I train
at high altitude, I expect my power to be 5-10% lower than normal and
my heart rate to be higher than normal.

Basically I think training with perceived exertion is a joke. In order
to train the different energy systems in the body, you first have to
test yourself to find your threshold, and then calculate your training
zones. Then your training can precisely target those different zones.

What very few randonneurs realize is that to ride faster, you have to
train in all the zones. Riding a lot in your endurance zone may
increase your fitness to a point, but it's not going to make you
faster or stronger. It's true that we're not racing, but if I could
finish in daylight rather than after midnight, I'd be really happy.


Using a power meter during the event:

Even if you don't monitor your power during the event, just having the
data to examine later is a wonderful resource. As I said before, it
means you're able to compare different events. Analyzing a power meter
graph is a science and an art, and a coach can help you see your
strengths and weaknesses.

I look at the brevet as a really long time trial. I try to keep my
power level below my lactate threshold (some people call it the
functional threshold). If a head wind kicks up, or a mountain appears,
I don't worry about speed; I focus on keeping the effort the same,
even if it means I'm slowing down.


Your question on storage life:

You can set the data sampling rate so you can collect more data, for
example, you can record data every second or every 5 seconds. I think
mine will collect 15 hours of data. Check the user manual or just call
Saris Cycling.

The battery lasts for a year, and they're the kind you can buy in any
drug store.


Susan Plonsky
Regional Brevet Administrator, Southern Arizona

[Charles Coldwell]

On Sep 7, 2008, at 10:56 AM, Jan Heine wrote:

>> Basically I think training with perceived exertion is a joke.
>

> The method has worked well for me. It requires that you know your
> body. And I'd argue that knowing your body is vitally important for
> successful randonneuring.

I've sat on the sidelines from this thread so far, biting my tongue,
but that was the last straw.

I'm with the guy who said your randonneuring performance is mostly
determined by how many times you stop for ice cream. I once did the
Boston 200K, starting with a trio of racers who had come down from
New Hampshire for the ride. Their captain asked me how long I
thought I would take to finish, and having done the course many, many
times, I was able to say confidently "about 8 hours". After rotating
pulls with them for a couple of hours I dropped off the back, but I
was still so far ahead of schedule that I was forced to stop for a
milkshake at Dr. Davis Ice Cream in Pepperell (highly recommended if
you're passing through, just eight miles after the second control in
Brookline, NH). I finished in 8:02.

For goodness sake, people, this isn't racing. There's a time limit,
yes, but the whole point of this sport is that nothing is vitally
important. It is not a sport of inches and split seconds; I round my
finishing times to the nearest *hour*.

Attitudes like this are what lead to doping, people.

Chip

--

Charles M. Coldwell, W1CMC
"Turn on, log in, tune out"
Somerville, Massachusetts, New England (FN42kj)

GPG ID: 852E052F
GPG FPR: 77E5 2B51 4907 F08A 7E92 DE80 AFA9 9A8F 852E 052F

[Susan P]

Chip,

I think we agree that there are many reasons to ride a brevet.
Sometimes I want to ride and support my friends. I also want to
connect with nature and see interesting places.

For me building fitness is an important aspect of the sport, because I
want to have enough energy to enjoy the sport and appreciate what's
going on. The brevet isn't suppose to be a death march, but it will be
if one doesn't train.

I agree that not everyone has performance goals. Racing through the
event doesn't increase their enjoyment of the sport.

For me personally, I need to train to get faster if I'm going to have
a successful randonnee. I can't ride for 90 hours without sleeping, so
if I'm going to get some decent sleep, I need to get faster. It sounds
like you don't have this problem.

I also need to train in the mountains because I can ride forever on
the flats but the elevation wipes me out. Maybe you don't have that
problem either.

In short, I think there's nothing wrong with trying to get better at
something. I think we would agree that there's more to the sport than
performance, but then again, this thread is about training, and not
all the other wonderful aspects of brevet riding that drew us to the
sport.

Susan

[Jake Kassen]

Charles Coldwell wrote:

> pulls with them for a couple of hours I dropped off the back, but I
> was still so far ahead of schedule that I was forced to stop for a
> milkshake at Dr. Davis Ice Cream in Pepperell (highly recommended if
> you're passing through, just eight miles after the second control in
> Brookline, NH). I finished in 8:02.
>

(snip)

>
> Attitudes like this are what lead to doping, people.
>
> Chip
>

I couldn't agree more. It's a shame that even randonneurs have a hard
time staying away from milk treated with rBGH.

Jake

[Susan P]

> After all, what good does it do you to know you are only putting out
> 138 Watts instead of your customary 154? Isn't it more useful to know
> that you are working as hard as you usually are, and your heart rate
> is the same 168 bpm as it usually is?

I'd like to draw a distinction between training and riding an event.

During training, we want to achieve a certain zone for the specific
purpose of training that energy system. If you can't put out the watts
for that zone, you should just stop and do something else that day. Or
if you've been doing intervals in a zone but get to the point where
you can no longer get into that zone, then you're done for the day.
Trying to achieve a certain zone but not getting there is not
effective training.

And the opposite is also true. Maybe you're in the early part of the
season and building base miles. You're feeling good and zipping along.
Then you look down at your power meter/HRM and notice you're out of
that endurance zone - you may want to slack off.

During the event, if I can't achieve the zone I want, I may try eating
and drinking more. If I still can't get there, then I just let it
go.It's just a piece of information for me. I'm thinking maybe I can't
sustain that pace for 200 km. That's valuable to know. It establishes
a baseline - I know the amount of exertion that I can sustain all
day.


> In fact, what if your heart rate is just 158 bpm because it is hot
> and humid and you are tired? There is nothing you can do about it!

Yes, I can do something about it. I can speed up or slow down. I know
what heart rate I can sustain all day. If I saw 158, I may slow down.
Or, if I'm on a climb, I'll make sure my heart rate falls to a
sustainable level after the summit. Or stop and get some ice cream
with our friend Chip.

> >Basically I think training with perceived exertion is a joke.
>
> The method has worked well for me.

I guess I was pretty rude, wasn't I? I don't doubt it works for you. I
just don't think most riders have that level of awareness.


> Precision and the human body are two different things! Few cyclists
> even know what their max. heart rate is. There is only one way to
> find out - racing somebody slightly faster than you up a hill.


I don't think that's entirely true. Racing all out is one method.
There are others. This one involves doing a 20-minute time trial
effort:

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/freeinfo/Determining_LT.html

Once you have a power meter, here are even more ways of determining
LT:

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/threshold.asp

> >What very few randonneurs realize is that to ride faster, you have to
> train in all the zones.
>

> I totally agree with that. But all you need for that is a bike, not a
> power meter.


We're talking apples and oranges here. If a rider is training with
perceive exertion alone, and they're putting in a big effort and
breathing hard, you may say they're training in a (VM zone/zone 5/
whatever you want to call it). But if at the same time power output is
low, then in my definition they're not in that zone and they're not
training the energy system they think they're training.

Susan

[CRWGPSGUY]

>(Poor runners, they have no idea what their power output is!)
There are wireless devices that clip to the shoe that measure wattage.
http://www.polarusa.com/us-en/products/accessories/s3_Stride_Sensor_WIND

It works with the RS800 at the user interface. I don't think effort is
displayed / translated into a wattage number but it is the same kind of
feedback you get from a wattage meter on a bike.

The polar watt meter for the bike does what I need to do. This is the same
kind of question as Cue sheets / GPS. Use what works for you.

> For goodness sake, people, this isn't racing

Watt meters aren't just for racers. I don't think I've done the BBS200k in
less then 9 hours. The watt meter gives a un-biased direct feedback in the
second leg (bbs200k) with all those hills, i.e. yes you are putting out all
the effort you should to climb these hills where other indicators would
suggest otherwise.

I wonder if Tracy Ingle uses her watt meter for races ":>

When my watt meter failed (dead battery) on the way back from the BBS 350k
BBQ I was still able to 'go on' with out it.

Paul a NER bike guy.

[Antti]

> Does it help pace your effort? Have you found it helps keep you in the
> right "zone" better than just watching your heart rate? Do you find it
> has enough battery/storage capacity for long brevets - or doesn't the
> data storage matter as long as it displays the data for the length of
> the ride?
>
> Joel

I've been now using Power Tap three seasons, and I'd say gratest
advantage comes from the more efficient training rides. Without PM,
it's so easy to start too hard and end too easy, specially wether
training with stationary trainer where the warming is a factor. Also,
when riding outdoors, the wind and terrain affect a lot what is the
speed achieved with the same power.

On the brevets, the PM works best for pacing when one is riding alone.
Wether riding in a group, some internal calculation or estimation is
needed to find the balance between power in the draft vs power in the
front.

The second best tool for pacing is the RPE. In a way, RPE may
overwrite the PM as well, wether I feel crap (eg due to exhausted,a
flu or whatsoever) I may not keep the power up, whatever numbers there
are on the screen. Also, it's a seldom occasion when the PM can be
monitored constantly as one have to look on the road, traffic, etc, so
it's anyway the RPE which should keep the power on the rough level.

Battery life should be ~100 hours for the CPU, ~300 for the hub,
shouldn't be an issue, although differences between battery types have
been found out. Data storage with 15 s storage intervals is enough for
a PBP.

[Bill Gobie]

On Sep 7, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Jake Kassen wrote:

> I couldn't agree more. It's a shame that even randonneurs have a hard
> time staying away from milk treated with rBGH.

Who knows, rBGH might be the magic ingredient in chocolate milk.

On a permanent yesterday one control was at a Whole Foods. When I
asked where the Gatorade was, the clerk enthusiastically explained WF
only carries energy drinks made with all-natural ingredients. Which
made me think, "But what if it makes me puke (in an all-natural way)
in 10 miles?" I bought some water and mixed up the un-natural drink
powder I carry for these situations.

One thing randonneurring has taught me is I can subsist on remarkably
poor food.

Bill Gobie

[banker]

First don’t discount the racers. There are lots of things that
randonneurs can learn from the racing community. Not only training
but bike handling as well. While our goals may be a bit different and
in randonneuring, the person who finishes first gets as much credit as
the guy who finishes last, we can still learn how to get to our
destination in an enjoyable fashion and take a bit of the struggle out
of it. We can learn how to more efficient and how to better use what
energy we do have. We can learn how to handle the bike better and how
to work in a paceline better. These are things that are not exclusive
to racing. Learning from them is optional but I found I can learn a
lot from our racing friends. Doesn't mean I am going out and pull a
license.

Next, Jan is completely right about RPE and knowing your body. There
is not an electronic device that can substitute for it. He is right
about being able to guess your heart rate pretty accurately. This
isn’t my opinion but you can look it on studies about the Borg scale
and other studies on RPE. If you are in Weight Watchers, you know
they use a system of determining your calorie expenditure via RPE. I
will cut it short but in looking up how their system works, it was
very well researched. Use most calorie counters on the web and you
will see this in action. If we are honest in our evaluation of our
efforts, we can pretty accurately tell where we are in our heart rate
at any time as well as knowing how much we have left in the tank.
Point is that there is a lot of research to back up what Jan says.

I do use a Powertap and I do now work with a coach. After PBP and the
508 last year, I decided there were some areas that I could improve.
It was and is my decision. I don’t preach that it is for everyone.
Interesting enough, the coaches I work with don’t really use power as
a measure. Instead we work on pedal stroke, cadence and heart rate.
I will also tell that working with coaches who can observe you will
make a difference. I am fortunate because I live in the SF Bay area
where there are 2 guys who are very reasonable and good. One is
former gold medalist and world champion along with being former coach
for the Soviet Olympic cycling team. Again, we don't really focus on
power but you can tell the difference. Where you get some fast
improvement is when you stop "pedaling like a tourist".

I would suggest that in many ways one of the underutilized tools that
most of have is our cadence meter. Again, this is where some of the
material that I am reading suggests this is where we can make a
difference in long distance riding. By using a higher cadence, we can
reduce leg fatigue. This is where the power meter has been helpful.
I can see that I can put out the same amount of power at higher
cadence, less resistance and hold it longer than if I mash the pedal.
You can get visible feedback with a power meter. It is not an easy
process to pick up your cadence. For some of us it natural but others
like me have to work on it. Tools like the powertap can help.

Now whether or not I would use my PowerTap on something like a 600k or
a PBP, I am not sure. Personally my preference would be keep
everything as simple as possible and keeping everything easy to
repair. My body will tell me when I have a drop off in power. I
would keep the Heart Rate Monitor. It has been interesting. In
targeting certain zones in my training, I know where I start to hit
the wall and will pay a price if my heart rate (and I sure my power
output) spikes to a certain level. I just can’t recover as fast. I
have just had wheel bearing problems in my PowerTap hub and you just
can't take it anywhere to have it fixed. As I get ready for the 508,
I have a concern because some of the roads are so rough that I don't
want another issue.

I will add a couple things. If you are thinking about using a
PowerTap, find someone to help you learn how to read the output. You
will collect a lot of data and unless you know how to use it, it
becomes worthless. This is from personal experience. One of the
places that you might check is another Google group called Wattage.
It is one of the most active groups on cycling I have ever seen. They
talk about everything related to power meteres. Be prepared for
substantial volume of messages.

[Ingle, Bruce]

Several years ago, one of the fastest riders on our 200k (and the
fastest on fixed gear) showed me his "dashboard" just before the start;
it consisted of two cyclometers. The one on the left was a basic wired
computer with the normal functions; the one on the right was identical
but non-functional and had a message taped over the display area: "GO
FASTER".

- Bruce

[Lois Springsteen]

Has anyone used an Ant+ Sport power meter with the Edge 705 yet? I don't want to add another computer to my bike since I already have the Edge 705 but the power data sounds intriguing.

 

Lois

[banker]

On Sep 9, 11:52 am, "Lois Springsteen" <laspringst...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Has anyone used an Ant+ Sport power meter with the Edge 705 yet? I don't
> want to add another computer to my bike since I already have the Edge
> 705 but the power data sounds intriguing.
>
> Lois
>
>

Lois, Karl Etzel over at Silicon Valley Cycling Center (it is in
Campbell so it is over the hill from you) was just mentioning this. I
know that the wireless verison PowerTap is suppose to start working
with the 705 in the coming months. He wasn't sure when the upgrade
would happen. Karl writes for Road Bike review and has a lot short
videos on power meters on their web site. He and few others around
here love to read power data files. The other group I mentioned in my
last post, Wattage has updates and my guess has some posts (lots of
posts) about this topic. You might try a Google Group search. Using
the Google group search will help narrow down what you have to sort
through to find it.

Paul Duren

[Mike Biswell]

And here super duper randonneur GL checks in with his opinion:

"I don't believe there's any use whatsoever in going out for seven hours and
riding at a steady pace."

http://tinyurl.com/4e662y

Regards!
Mike

[Kris]

And this is a great thing! Pre-mixed Gatorade is loaded with HFCS,
and is not the original effective formula. The powder is still close
to original formula.....or so I am told. With that said, I regularly
drink the pre-mixed version when required.

Kris "off to a crit, loaded with legal supplements to make me go
faster" Kjellquist