How fast do you ride? Am I really that slow?
Butch
hoped to officially join the Rando ranks by now, but alas, when you
have 4 kids...
Anyway, I have only 1 year been in better shape that I feel I am in
this year. So, a couple of weeks ago we start going to the local club
ride because my son had heard there was a fast group that rode and he
wanted some more experience riding in a group and being pushed by
riders faster than his fat daddy.
What did we find? The whole group rides fast: 20mph or more. Here I
am pacing along nicely at 15-17mph and feeling great and loving the
ride.
My question, am I really that slow or is this another example of
"racer" mentality taking over even the recreational bicycling clubs?
So, what speeds are you all riding at for training, and what speeds
are you averagin on say a 200 or 300k rando?
Thanks!
Mark Wooldridge
> example of
> "racer" mentality taking over even the
> recreational bicycling clubs?
>
> So, what speeds are you all riding at for training, and
> what speeds
> are you averagin on say a 200 or 300k rando?
>
I think club ride pace depends on the club. I occasionally ride with two different clubs:
Club 1: An A group at 22-25 mph with sprints and attacks, and a B group at 18-20 advertised as "no drop" although they don't always adhere to this; this club is oriented primarily toward racing
Club 2: 200-300 riders show, with groups split up from 14-16 mph, 16-18, 18-20, 20-22, 22+ (although the groups don't hold exactly to those speeds, they do break out along ability levels); this club is much more oriented toward recreational riding, although they do have a strong team that trains separately from the main club ride.
The main lesson I draw from this: Check around, and find a club that fits what you want to do (assuming you have a choice in clubs--I live near a major city)
What I see in the local randonneuring club is a big spread in pace from averages only a couple of mph above the minimum up to speeds that bump the maximum pace for shorter brevets. Riders at both extremes seem to be happy, although the lowest pace riders are occasionally stressed by trying to meet the time limits when conditions are tough.
Personally, I like to train at higher paces for shorter rides so that I get high intensity training. This lets me ride longer rides faster without struggling, and deal with hills or winds without struggling as much. I also do heart-rate based training for intervals, etc., to build speed and strength.
I have worked very hard on brevets to make a "personal best" and had a very good time doing it, but try not to get hung up on being faster than other riders.
Mark "make of it what you want" W
Lynne Fitz
the sub-17 group. My riding average will be around 14 with the club
rides. You don't want to know what it is on brevets. While I'm
working toward the "cover 12 miles every hour" goal, I have met that
goal exactly ONCE, and not on a brevet. I don't "train". Probably
should, but I have not yet made that mental committment. I don't even
feel bad that I've not made that committment :-)
I will say that MY cycling club has about 450 members. We also have a
race team of about 35 riders. And yeah, I'm thinking the race
mentality is creeping in. When I was last there, any group that was a
tempo-17 and above did not tend to stick to the stated pace. When I
lead a ride, we have fun, we regroup, we buy big sticky pastries, we
don't paceline. I'll ride with them Saturday for the first time in
months - been busy with other riding :-)
Butch
than...". I'm a little disappointed that this club that was such a
great recreational group a decade ago now appears to be racers.
Unfortunately, they're the only game in town at the moment. So...
I'll just ride at the back of the pack on my commuter bike with
fenders and a big seat bag enjoing the smell of fresh-mown grass and
watching the late summer sun float on the horizen -- I bet the rest of
them didn't even notice those 2 things last night!
Gino Zahnd
>
> My question, am I really that slow or is this another example of
> "racer" mentality taking over even the recreational bicycling clubs?
It just depends on the club, and even then the particular group within
the club. We have 2 large-ish clubs in Chico. Chico Corsa (racers)
and Chico Velo (everyone else, hundreds of people). Corsa ride
extremely hard, all the time. Their LSD (long slow/steady distance)
rides in the winter tend to sit at around 19-20mph. The Wednesday
night "Fast 50" seems to average 25mph, or higher. I got through about
half of one Fast 50 ride before I was dropped. I learned for certain
that style of riding isn't what I enjoy. They also crash way too
often. :-)
Then, there are several groups within Chico Velo that ride at
different paces. There's a scale that is used to indicate both speed
and hills, and usually the person putting on the ride communicates
that to the list beforehand. Here's the scale:
*************************************************************************************************
All rides start at One-Mile unless otherwise noted.
Terrain Rating
---------------------
1: Flat ride (example: River Road)
2: Some rolling hills (Keefer Road)
3: Moderate climbing (Neal Road)
4: Significant climbing (Centerville AND Honey Run)
Pace Ratings
--------------------
You should be able to ride this pace comfortably for 30 minutes on a flat road,:
A: 10-12 mph (ride as group)
B: 13-15 mph (frequent re-groups)
C: 16-18 mph (regular re-groups)
D: 19-21 mph (occasional re-groups)
E: 22-24 mph (possible re-groups)
F: 25+ mph
*************************************************************************************************
And, as others have said, if you do some amount of planned high
intensity riding, your ability to ride faster and recover at longer
distances will increase.
Me? I'm just slow like you. My first 200k I averaged 15.6mph (rolling
speed) for the first 75 miles or so, but I finished with a 14.6mph
rolling speed. I guess I need to train harder. :-)
If you can ride steadily at 15-17mph in a brevet, you'll do wonderfully.
Gino
Butch
a couple of weeks as I plan to do my own 200k with rolling hills
beginning and end and flat in the middle. I would be glad the first
time out if I could average 11-14 mph with stops -- but we'll see!
I'm hoping to recruit a few more women and men who ride my pace as I
know they are out therre. In fact, the other observations I have
about this club ride are:
4 women -- two on singles, two on tandem (weekly group has been 25-30
total)
no recumbents
no trailers or tag-a-longs
no touring and only 1 bike set up for commuting (mine!)
Thanks for the ongoing input
On Aug 29, 12:06�pm, "Gino Zahnd" <ginoza...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My question, am I really that slow or is this another example of
> > "racer" mentality taking over even the recreational bicycling clubs?
>
> It just depends on the club, and even then the particular group within
> the club. �We have 2 large-ish clubs in Chico. Chico Corsa (racers)
> and Chico Velo (everyone else, hundreds of people). �Corsa ride
> extremely hard, all the time. �Their LSD (long slow/steady distance)
> rides in the winter tend to sit at around 19-20mph. The Wednesday
> night "Fast 50" seems to average 25mph, or higher. I got through about
> half of one Fast 50 ride before I was dropped. I learned for certain
> that style of riding isn't what I enjoy. They also crash way too
> often. �:-)
>
> Then, there are several groups within Chico Velo that ride at
> different paces. There's a scale that is used to indicate both speed
> and hills, and usually the person putting on the ride communicates
> that to the list beforehand. �Here's the scale:
>
> Terrain Rating
> ---------------------
> 1: Flat ride (example: River Road)
> 2: Some rolling hills (Keefer Road)
> 3: Moderate climbing (Neal Road)
> 4: Significant climbing (Centerville AND Honey Run)
>
> Pace Ratings
> --------------------
> You should be able to ride this pace comfortably for 30 minutes on a flat road,:
> A: 10-12 mph (ride as group)
> B: 13-15 mph (frequent re-groups)
> C: 16-18 mph (regular re-groups)
> D: 19-21 mph (occasional re-groups)
> E: 22-24 mph (possible re-groups)
> F: 25+ mph
Jon Muellner
> I'm not sure I can ride 15-17 in a brevet. I guess we'll find out in
> a couple of weeks as I plan to do my own 200k with rolling hills
> beginning and end and flat in the middle. I would be glad the first
> time out if I could average 11-14 mph with stops -- but we'll see!
average and done without beating myself to death. True, folks do ride
faster, but it's not necessary. As long as you get ot all the controls
in time and finish the brevet, that's all that matters. Don't be
intimidated by faster riders, there are always folks faster, cuter and
lucky than others. Fiishing is most important. All else is just
frosting.
Jon
NickBull
randonneuring club's website, and see if they post ride results. Or
look at some of the other rando clubs in your part of the country.
Or, take a look at the results page on dcrand.org. Of course, how
fast people ride depends on terrain. We typically have around 10000
feet of elevation gain per 200Km.
On the 2007 results page for DC Randonneurs, there are some tables and
histograms. Here's a summary table of average time to completion for
brevets in 2007 and brevets from 93 to 06. Other tables show the
range of normal variation.
Event Distance '07 93 - '06
200K 10.2 9.8
300K 14.8 15.1
400K 21.0 20.9
600K 34.8 35.3
1000K 71.3
1200K 82.5
I like this kind of geeky, statistical stuff, so I've been preparing
these tables for the last few years.
Nick
Bill Gobie
On Aug 29, 2008, at 4:14 PM, Butch wrote:
> I'm not sure I can ride 15-17 in a brevet. I guess we'll find out in
> a couple of weeks as I plan to do my own 200k with rolling hills
> beginning and end and flat in the middle. I would be glad the first
> time out if I could average 11-14 mph with stops -- but we'll see!
>
The minimum speed to finish, if you don't stop, is 9.32 mph. Here is
how much time you "earn" for faster speeds: (I hope the columns line up)
Speed (mph) Time banked (min/hr)
9.32 0
10 4
11 9
12 13
13 17
14 20
15 23
16 25
17 27
18 29
19 31
20 32
21 33
Any faster than 21 mph and you have to wait for controls to open.
The figure I remember is averaging 14 mph builds a cushion of 20
minutes per hour, or one hour for every three. The faster you can go
at the start the more rapidly you can build up a nice time cushion,
but don't burn yourself out. Minimizing time at controls is
important. Once I have about 2 hours lead over the closing times I
linger at controls if I feel I need a bit of time off the bike. The
faster you can go the easier the entire ride will be, because
everything becomes more difficult the longer you are on the bike.
Surely you have already ridden centuries. A 200 is not much
further. You should do fine, although if your previous experience is
fully supported and organized rides over relatively easy courses your
first brevet might be something of an eye-opener.
Bill Gobie
Mark Wooldridge
> a couple of weeks as I plan to do my own 200k with
> rolling hills beginning and end and flat in the middle. I would be
> glad the first time out if I could average 11-14 mph with stops --
> but we'll see!
One of the biggest things that affects overall time in a brevet is time spent at stops. If you're quick through the controls you can save lots of time. Talk while you're riding, not while you're standing around at the control. If you develop a habit of thinking about what you need to do, getting that done, and getting on the road you'll save time that will be critical in longer brevets especially.
And if you have good habits you won't end up 5 miles down the road realizing you didn't get your card signed!
Mark WW
Butch
Actually, I have ridden metric centuries but not a standard one. Of
the supported rides I've done, only one has been what I would consider
posh. I don't worry too much about the support as I do a lot of
riding alone and feel comfortable with doing so. I figure if I'm
going to go 100 miles, I might as well go for 200k to give the rando
life a try.
DrCodfish
" ... am I really that slow or is this another example of "racer"
ride with the racer boys you'll enjoy being reminded of this
repeatedly. So if being fast, or fastEST, or part of the 'fast bunch'
is what turns your cranks, well, I've got bad news for you. But take
heart, we're all slow, there is ALWAYS
someone faster, unless perhaps you're Mark Cavendish.
I'm not going to give you the Mary Poppins speach about how eveyone is
a winner etc, because even though I believe that, it is a fact that
speed matters, to everyone, even the ultimate slow riders (that would
be me).
Being fastER is of great value when randonneuring; Not only does it
salve that darned ego, it affords you with many options not available
to slower riders: There's time to fix a flat (or the odd broken chain
should that present), or time to take photos, or loll about a cafe
over a meal. One of the more treasured aspects of riding PBP is
stopping at a roadside cafe for a meal and a beverage of your choice.
Slow pokes don't get that much. Perhaps one of the most valuable
'options' is time to sleep. For me additional sleep on long brevets
is as much if not more 'nourishing' than food. One additional option
not often considered is that you also have the option of slowing
down. Why slow down? Well if you get a sour stomach for a spell, you
can slow down or even stop for a bit without jeopardizing your
finish. You could slow down to ride with another rider if this is a
person you'd like to roll along with for a bit. I know this must be
attractive occasionally because I've had the pleasure of riding with
faster people on a number of occasions.
"I've been riding this year more than I have in over a decade. I had
hoped to officially join the Rando ranks by now, but alas, when you
have 4 kids..."
'kids' excuse. I know kids suck up time like a black hole (I have
four kids too) but where there is a will there is an excuse to go
riding. In fact I think randonneuring can be as much of a time sink
as having kids. May just have to reduce your couch time quota.
"Anyway, I have only 1 year been in better shape that I feel I am in
this year. So, a couple of weeks ago we start going to the local club
ride because my son had heard there was a fast group that rode and he
wanted some more experience riding in a group and being pushed by
riders faster than his fat daddy. > What did we find? The whole group
rides fast: 20mph or more. Here I am pacing along nicely at 15-17mph
and feeling great and loving the ride."
maintain 15 to 17! Actually, I think riding with the fast group at
the club ride is good practice for rando. First it helps to smash that
that ego into a million slow little pieces time and again. Believe
me, that ego is about as much hlep on your brevets as dragging a
cinder block along behind. And secondly, as has been mentioned
previously, riding fast is excellent prep for ...riding fast.
It will also help condition you for riding solo. I don't recommend it
(riding solo) you get all kinds of benefits from riding with others,
but there are times when it's just you and the bike and I think for a
lot of people that is a show stopper. When things are 'good', brevets
are social events, but really the seed of randonneuring is self
sufficiency so riding along by yourself in the dark of night, (throw
in a little rain here) you get a chance to test the definition of self
sufficiency. And here, you get the pay off of being 'slow'. If your
good at riding slow you'll get the ultimate win: a finish on a long
hard brevet. This may be a little hard to grasp but, this will
ultimately reinforce your sense of self worth (ego) there is something
very satisfying in being able to say to yourself "I stuck it out".
My advice: Join your local club, ride the brevets you can fit in with
your kid obligations, occasionally volunteer to help out on a brevet
AND take your kids with you. They'll get a sense of what your up to
on those, long, lonely, slow rides (empathy is a great thing to plant
in a kid's mind at an early age) and if you keep at it I guarantee you
will get faster over time.
To answer your questions, I'm slow, almost always at the back of the
pack lately but I have been faster in past years and actually plan to
get fast between now and 2011.
Yr Pal Dr Codfish
Mike Biswell
Following is a very awesome, educational and encouraging elementary post
about rando/bike riding.
We are not always alone.
Regards!
Mike
Glrf...@aol.com
Of course, how
fast people ride depends on terrain. We typically have around 10000
feet of elevation gain per 200Km.
It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.
Butch
Am I making the best of my time with four kids? I think so, and that
has added to what I think has been a good year so far:
1. I am back to commuting to work 4-5 days a week getting 85-100miles
a week there.
2. I ride with my wife, 13yo and 14 yo several days a week.
Do I mind being slower that the racers? No, just needed a reality
check if I am in the same ballpark fitness/speed-wise with the kind of
people I really want to ride with in the long-run.
Am I OK riding alone? Yes. Actually, I've probably ridden alone more
during my life-time that with a group. However, I do enjoy riding
with a group..
NickBull
of a ride (e.g., like categories for climbs in France or for various
mountaineering climbs), total elevation gain is the best summary
statistic that I can think of. I guess that average grade while
climbing would be useful. But usually, it's pretty hard to get any
kind of authoritative measure of elevation gain for a given ride, let
alone the combination of elevation gain and miles of actual climbing.
To some extent, The difficulty of a climb depends a lot on gearing. A
climb that would be impossible in a 53/11 gear could be easy in a 22
(front) 34 (rear) gear. And the ride that my buddy and I were barely
able to complete by the time limits in January, when the temperature
started at 5 Fahrenheit and rose to a high in the high 20's, was easy
in May.
On Sep 1, 11:37 am, Glrfn...@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 8/29/2008 11:27:28 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>
>
> Of course, how
> fast people ride depends on terrain. We typically have around 10000
> feet of elevation gain per 200Km.
> Elevation gain may or may not be indicative of the degree of difficulty for
> a particular brevet. The number of hills, their steepness, their frequency,
> and length of the climbs usually determine the difficulty. Of course the
> condition of the pavement, straight or switch backs, and weather conditions
> also enter into the equation.
>
> Frank Paulo
>
> deal here.
> (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)
Mark Wooldridge
The Audax UK website describes the system that they use for awarding AAA points that "encourage participation in hilly events and offer a challenge to regular long distance riders and also to those who do not wish to ride the longest events but who enjoy hard riding. It is popular, not only because of the challenge, but also because of the scenery it has to offer."
The formula is fairly complicated, but is based on altitude climbed and distance:
P = (c - (d * 14) + ((d-100)*(d-100)/100)) / 400
Where: P = AAA points for the distance, to be rounded to the nearest ¼ point
c = total metres climbed
d = distance in kilometers
There are minimum standards for awarding points, though, so not every ride even qualifies for anything. They have spreadsheets, etc., at: http://www.aukweb.net/aaa/index.htm
It sounds really interesting, and could be an incentive for riders to do hillier routes to pick up points that count toward the annual competition.
Mark W
Slo Joe Recumbo
Why? Because I find I need "..to do my own pace.." otherwise I find
I'm pushing to keep up with someone. I will tag along and converse of
course...one of the fun parts of brevets. Plus I don't ride
steady...I'll often crank..coast..crank...coast...go slow..go
faster.....so what me thinks it boils down to is find the pace that
works for YOU.
Because I'm slow I went to liquid food when doing very long brevets.
That allows me to "eat on the bike" and not spend time sitting and
dining. Another benefit of that is that I do bank some "emergency
time".
The neat thing is that you've found an interest in randonneuring.
And as my saying goes "Ride Long and Prosper" (psst..no mentino of
fast) <grin>
On Sep 2, 9:46 am, Mark Wooldridge <mdw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
William Olsen
> > We typically have around 10000 feet of elevation gain per 200Km.
I'm not particularly fast up steep hills but those of you whom I've ridden with know I'm not really all that much of a "slouch" either, but with the company Nick keeps, you can sign me ...
"Back of the pack" Willie
> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 15:09:50 -0700
> Subject: [Randon] Re: How fast do you ride? Am I really that slow?
Nicholas Bull
Nick
NickBull
Frank Paolo's comments about difficulty not only being related to
elevation change but also to rate of change and length of average
climb.
So, for instance, a brevet that had gently rolling terrain with a 100
foot climb and descent every 2 km (adding up to 10000 feet in 200km)
would score just the same as a brevet that started with a 10000 foot
climb in the first two miles (at a 45 percent grade -- I think it
would be a challenge to even push your bike up it) and then descended
the 10000 feet in the next two miles (better check your brakes!),
followed by 121 miles on the flat.
On Sep 1, 9:46 pm, Mark Wooldridge <mdw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
William Olsen
I may have made this point on the ride write-ups I've posted but the hills of the east are a little different than those of the west. Not that I really liked a 3-hour 18.6 mile climb (YES I AM THAT SLOW!!!) up Washington Pass, once it is finished, one has the rest of the day to ride enjoy a "down hill run." The Rocky Mountain was even better, after two days of gentle climbing, once one got over Rogers Pass, it was downhill for the last two days (and again, I AM that slow as others probably did this stretch in a day!!!)
Compare this with the "sawtooth" climbs of the east, such as riders experienced on the Shenandoah and PA1000 (If you like this, Tom has managed to locate another 200K of similar climbing and will be running it as the "Endless Mountain 1200K in 2009. The BCC1200 managed to locate similar endless saw teeth in Alabama which were probably the most "insidious." One wanted to be in a 53X11 on the downhill to maximize the speed available to go back up, but to clear the crest one (at least ME!!!) needed to be in a 30X34 - I really didn't need all of the practice shifting after about twenty miles of this. I'm not sure that I'd include BMB in this group, as the rollers really were rollers and the climbs were pretty much single pass climbs and not a lot of continuous saw teeth.
Although ALL randonnees present their own unique difficulties and challenges the relentless climbing found in the Appalachian rides can really gets to folks, especially when one throws in a little heat - as evidenced on the second day of the Shenandoah.
Bill
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 20:39:40 -0400
From: nick.bi...@gmail.com
To: wmo...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [Randon] Re: How fast do you ride? Am I really that slow?
CC: ran...@googlegroups.com
Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find Out How
Mark Wooldridge
> From: NickBull <nick.bi...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Randon] Re: How fast do you ride? Am I really that slow?
> That's an interesting formula, but it doesn't seem
> like it addresses
> Frank Paolo's comments about difficulty not only being
> related to
> elevation change but also to rate of change and length of
> average
> climb.
>
Yep, it doesn't. Quantifying those factors would address that, but it gets tricky--first you have to decide what a "climb" consists of. Once you've determined that one you can work out the others. Is it some minimum length? A minimum altitude change? Minimum gradient? Some combination of all of those factors? I think we all have something in our heads, but it probably differs depending on the typical terrain we're familiar with.
I used to ride in Pennsylvania from Happy Valley--every local ride except one went up and over and up and over (feel free to repeat until you throw up like I used to) the ridge lines of the Appalachians. Lots of steep gradients and significant but not enormous elevation changes per climb. This summer I went riding in Colorado--lots of elevation change but many of the gradients were lower than PA. Home on the flatlands near the Gulf Coast we add up lots of little rollers without steep grades and come up with 5000 ft of climbing over 200k and are happy we came up with some climbing.
If you're rating difficulty by the characteristics of the individual climbs it would probably get tough to compute--and how do you handle a steep climb that briefly flattens (or descends 10 ft) then ascends once more? How do you get a volunteer to rate the hundreds of climbs that are encountered in a long rolling brevet?
Personally I'm not sure if a steep grade (but realistic--there goes that judgment thing again) that puts a lot of altitude in over a few climbs is harder than something that just goes up and down endlessly, but it probably depends on how steep steep is, what range of gears you have to choose from, and how hard you push the pace on that climb.
I think the Audax UK's formula tries to make a compromise between those factors without actually trying to quantify them and instead just uses something that's easily computed for a specific ride and still separate a ride with a climbing challenge from a flat ride. Maybe someone from the UK could chime in about their formula's origin and evolution?
Mark "PBP vs BMB" W
ps: I have a VDO computer that measures climbing, altitude, and gradient. It also computes "average gradient" but around here it always registers 1%, so it's not terribly helpful--maybe it does better in other areas.