Setting up a route in MapSource and City Navigator NT 2010

[Jim Bondra]

Just received an Etrex Vista HCX with Mapsource and City Navigator North
America NT 2010 on DVD for my birthday.

A few questions:

1. When trying to duplicate a route from a cue sheet into Mapsource,
do I place the waypoints _at the turn_ intersections or _after_
(if after, _how much after_?

2. How do I get the GPS to display _R on Main Street_ for example
after I make a route?

Also the latest version of the software does not allow me to check
"_Include Route Calculation Data_" for auto-routing units is NOT checked
in my Mapsource map program. Is there a way to change this or does it
not matter?

Thanks again for all the great advice everyone has given me so far.

Jim

[Kole Kantner]

Jim,

I know this is not quite the answer you are looking for, but in case it
helps, here is what use for my Garmin Edge 705. I use BikeRouteToaster
to create routes and I always put course points at or slightly before
the turn. At the turn gives the most accurate detail, while before
gives some advanced warning. I'm not sure what functionality it would
serve to put the course point after the turn. When specifying the course
point there is a label that shows as well as a flag for the type of
course point. When I use a tcx course for the GPS unit it shows an
arrow for the type of turn or other symbol. Bike Route Toaster gives
the option to automatically include an extra course point some
preconfigured distance like 200 feet before the turn. However, I have
stopped using that feature since I often have more than 50 course points
and with the extras it goes over the 100 point limit of my Garmin Edge
705. After reaching the 100th point it just shows the next point as the
finish which can be annoying if turn info is desired. In any case the
path detail is always visible, which is the most useful feature.

I'm not sure how the Etrex works, but with the Edge 705 the tcx courses
are accessed by saving them into the Courses folder and then choosing
Training, Courses, on the the GPS device menu. Before I discovered it
was under Training I never could get tcx courses to load.

--Kole--

[Larry Parker]

I want to second the recommendation for BikeRouteToaster.com I just found
it simpler and cleaner than any other options. Especially "Mapmyride.com"
Mapsource might work fine, but I am not familiar with using it because my
version doesn't have enough detail.

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[TomMarchand]

On Dec 7, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Larry Parker wrote:

BikeRouteToaster.com

They seem to be having have troubles.  From BikeRouteToaster.com:

3rd December 2009 - Service Resumed

BikeRouteToaster.com is up and running again after being offline for a number of days. We apologise for the disruption to service but it was out of our hands. Our hosting provider (Computrad Europe Ltd) decided that they didn't want to host our site anymore and took the server offline. So far they haven't given us a reason as to why the server was taken down so suddenly. We have been trying to contact them to retrieve our data that was held on their server but have been unable to do so. As a result we have had to restore the database from an earlier backup and approximately 1 weeks worth of data has been lost.
As a result you may find that courses you created recently are not available. Also if you have just registered recently and now can't log in it may be that you need to register again.
We apologise once again for any inconvenience this has caused. 

[Kole Kantner]

Tom,

Thanks for the update.  We were a bit disturbed to find out we couldn't access Bike Route Toaster to make last minute updates to our route just before the SM1200 ride. Luckily they were just cosmetic changes and we already had the courses loaded on our gps devices for the ride.  It certainly was a good reminder to be as prepared as possible ahead of time and also a good reminder that online services free or otherwise are not 100% reliable.

It is nice to see that Bike Route Toaster is back for now.  I was already starting to look for alternatives, but had not found a suitable one yet.  Despite some clumsy interface details it is still the best tool I have found so far to create tcx course files.

--Kole--

TomMarchand wrote:

[Eric Keller]

I intend to switch over to http://ridewithgps.com/
They are by far the most responsive to user requests of any of the
mapping sites.
Eric Keller
Boalsburg, PA

[pamela blalock]

I seem to be one of the few folks who uses MapSource. I have an Edge 705. I use MapSource on a windows pc. I create *routes*, either from cue sheets, or looking at maps. I tend to put the via points at the turns. I will say that you need to be very careful when doing this. If you aren't zoomed in enough, you might get the point on the right of a left turn, and your GPS will give confusing prompts like turn right, and then make a U turn. Otherwise via points AT the turns work well.

With *routes*, on my 705, I get prompts to turn left and right and such. The prompt and beep usually pop up a few hundred meters before each turn, when I am in bicycle mode. I also get prompts when I approach a via point that is NOT at a turn.. So if I set via point along a straight section, I will get a prompt from the GPS as I approach. I prefer to get beeps to alert me to turns, and if I put the via points before or after turns, I get beeps when I should just go straight. It's really just a personal preference, but one that if you are aware of may influence how you create your routes.

If there is a possible alternate route, I will add extra via points to ensure that the GPS goes on the roads I intend. In these cases, I may have a via point on a straight section of road, and I'll get a beep.

A note about the difference between routes and courses. Both will  highlight the roads. Routes will display prompts to turn right or left. Routes have a direction. If you want to do a route in reverse, you need to make a copy on the computer and reverse it - having one copy for each direction.

From Map Source, you can look at the directions for routes. I have copied directions from map source into word and cleaned them up, and added more notes for actual cue sheets. It can be very handy.

Courses are just highlighted, and won't have a direction, nor will they prompt.

I have a few friends with 705s, some with MACs and some with PCs. We have noted different behavior when interacting with our devices. One weirdness I have yet to figure out. When I send new routes to my 705, it wipes out old routes. If I want to have several routes available on the device, I just keep them in the same mapsource file. So if I'm doing a multi-day tour, I'll keep all the routes for the tour together.  I don't keep hundreds of routes in one file or on the device. If you have too many, it takes to long to start up, and to scroll thru to start a route.

Two of my friends have 705s that their routes aren't replaced, so they end up with hundreds on the device, and can't seem to clear them and not have them come back.

We have yet to find the setting that controls this behavior.

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pamela blalock
watertown, ma

[Andrew Mead]

I save routes/courses on my PC and copy them to appropriate folders on
my 705 using is as a USB drive. You can also easily delete files no
longer needed.

Some route programs that save directly to the Edge use the same file
name each time resulting in overwritten files (can't remember if
MapSource is one or not).

I'm still experimenting with courses. I keep finding issues when I
"challenge" the route. I like tracks for brevets. The path is what it
is and doesn't change. But I still carry a cue sheet, too, since I'd
hate for the GPS to malfunction in the middle of nowhere (a popular
venue for me).

Hope this sheds some light.

Andrew Mead
Pennsylvania

Sent from my mobile device

Andrew Mead
adm...@gmail.com

[Kole Kantner]

In the past I have been very frustrated with the arbitrary choices the Garmin Edge 705 makes for a "Route" so that I could never follow a cue sheet exactly or sometimes even very closely.  I know that it is possible to tune the route so that it follows closely, but that whole process seems pretty labor intensive and variable, particularly when bike paths are involved.  I also have had problems with the 705 getting finicky about using new routes without superimposing them over old ones.  I would often just do a hard reset on the device and start over from scratch as if I had just bought a new 705.  I rarely used the GPS on rides and certainly could not rely on it.  Battery life was also a critical problem for anything longer than a 300km or fast 400km ride.

Since discovering tcx courses and charging systems it has been completely different.  I download a completed course or make up one on Bike Route Toaster specifying course points for the cue sheet turns and copy the file into the courses folder on the 705.  To use it during the ride I choose "Training", "Course" and choose the appropriate course.  I have not erased any courses so it is getting to be a bother to find which one I want to use in the long list, but there does not seem to be any limit so far to how many I keep available.  It is also interesting that the device freezes that used to be common never seem to happen while following a tcx course.  Of course that could also be due to more recent system updates to the 705, although the freezes always seemed to happen when reading the maps from the micro SD card.  It turns out that maps aren't even required to have good success with a tcx course as we found out on the SM1200 in Australia recently.

The first tcx course I made for this past Mountain 600 near Seattle showed the whole trip in a purple line, but did not show any turns since I had not specified any course points.  It wasn't critical for that ride since I was familiar with the few turns. The next time I figured out how to specify the details of each course point and since then the 705 shows the distance to the next turn and what direction it will be, or if it is a control point.  I run without any audible prompts, but I have noticed that it pops up a notice as I arrive at the course point.  It also occasionally notes that I am off course, but I can see that I am still on the purple line and after ignoring it for a few minutes it tells me I am back on the course.  Some people put in a second course point just before each original course point to give advanced notice of turns, but that often uses up too many of the available 100 course points.  To me the prompts also do not seem necessary with the distance to the next turn clearly displayed when I want to see it.

Often the course posted online does not match the latest cue sheet exactly.  The cue sheet is the official course description and I prefer to make my course file from that or consult the cue sheet to be sure I am following the correct route.

--Kole--

[Kole Kantner]

Bike Route Toaster seems to always save the file named as course.tcx, although the 705 displays the course name from within the file, limited to something like 10 characters.  I rename each tcx file after downloading it and before copying it to the 705.  I probably could save it directly as the 705 just looks like another USB flash drive, but I prefer to keep the connection to the 705 as simple and basic as possible since I'm never sure when a program will fail to stop trying to access a USB drive. The name referenced by the 705 when displaying the list of available courses can be specified when saving the course from the website, or manually changed in the text near the beginning of the tcx file.  Course point names are also limited to 10 characters so naming a course point "Controle Corryong" shows as "Controle C" which can be less informative than another choice.

--Kole--

[Alan Baker]

Hi,

 

I used the Garmin 705 on the SM1200 and it worked relatively well.

 

The main problem I had was with MapSource and routes.

I used MapSource to set up all the waypoints from the cue sheet, and then downloaded to my Garmin 705.

 

However, on the Garmin 705, selecting a route, at a waypoint I would get "Head NE" instead of "Turn R onto Kings Rd"

 

I have also tried bikeroute toaster and get the same problem.

 

I may not have explained the problem sufficiently, if additional info is required I would be glad to supply. If anyone can shed some light on fixing this problem I would be most grateful.

 

Warm Regards

Alan Baker 

2009/12/9 Kole Kantner <kkan...@gmail.com>

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[Kole Kantner]

Alan,

Are you using a gpx route or a tcx course? tcx courses are not as
functional, but they completely eliminate any attempts by the gps unit
to second guess your intentions. Since I'm not looking for assistance
beyond indications for all the cue sheet turns, tcx courses are quite
sufficient for my needs.

By the way, did your route act a bit strange around the Hume Highway
before Euroa on the third day? A bit before the first major stretch on
the highway the path details appeared shifted a hundred meters or so as
if Google didn't quite have their map aligned right for Bike Route
Toaster. When setting up the course on the computer I remember noticing
that the aerial photo was offset from the map by a similar amount,
although obviously I didn't have Google in front of me as we were
jumping on and off of the highway heading into Euroa in the dark.

--Kole--

Alan Baker wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I used the Garmin 705 on the SM1200 and it worked relatively well.
>
> The main problem I had was with MapSource and routes.
> I used MapSource to set up all the waypoints from the cue sheet, and
> then downloaded to my Garmin 705.
>
> However, on the Garmin 705, selecting a route, at a waypoint I would
> get "Head NE" instead of "Turn R onto Kings Rd"
>
> I have also tried bikeroute toaster and get the same problem.
>
> I may not have explained the problem sufficiently, if additional info
> is required I would be glad to supply. If anyone can shed some
> light on fixing this problem I would be most grateful.
>
> Warm Regards
> Alan Baker
>

> 2009/12/9 Kole Kantner <kkan...@gmail.com <mailto:kkan...@gmail.com>>

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[Kole Kantner]

Alan,

I don't have any helpful suggestions for gpx routing, although I feel it
is possible to get what you are looking for. There are some settings in
the 705 that might modify how it follows a route or it might relate to
the setup of the route before loading onto the 705. I know that the
option to add a second course point just before the turn on a tcx course
tries to give the functionality you are looking for while using a
course. Another possibility is to set the original course points a bit
before each turn so that you are prompted before the turn. With prompts
turned on the 705 will beep and show the up to 10 character label for
the course point, although that is certainly a bit abbreviated to give
clear directions as compared to those given by the 705 on a gpx route.

--Kole--

Alan Baker wrote:
> HI Kole,
>
> When this happened I was trying to use the gpx route.
>
> I downloaded from Bikely and imported into the Garmin 705 the Bikely
> map as a track and mostly followed it. I used the Bikely map set up by
> Howard Dove and Bec Morton (Bikely contributor "ramhkd") as I know
> that Bec always does a good job setting her maps up. (I am not saying
> here that other contributors don't do as good a job, just that I have
> used Bec's maps before and I know I can trust them).
>
> I tried to use the route leaving the Canberra checkpoint, but got the
> "Head NE" prompt. This prompt was next to useles, so I switched back
> to following the track (as a backup to the instructions on the cue sheet).
>
> I pulled out of the ride at Cooma due to back problems. But, when
> looking at the route sheet before the start of the ride I could see
> there was going to be problems around the Hume highway.
>
> Congulations on finishing the SM1200, it was a tough one. I think we
> rode together briefly just out of Mittagong heading towards Goulburn.
>
> I am trying to find a solution to the route problem, as I thought it
> would be good to switch over to the route function when I get tired
> and have the Garmin wake me up when I have a turn coming up. I need to
> have the turn description actually tell me which way to turn, that is
> "turn right onto Kings street" not "Head NE". Any ideas on how to fix
> this ??

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[Rando Rider]

Kole,

Two points on "courses" on the Garmin 705:

1. There is a limit of 50 courses in the Course folder. Beyond that I
think what happens is that some of them don't show on the list. I keep
about 45 of my most frequently used Permanents on it at all times.

2. Bike Route Toaster wiill let you download the TCX file directly to
the Garmin usiing Garmin Communicator - saving a step

As you know, I use "courses" almost exclusively and I find Bike Route
Toaster is the easiest to use with courses & the Garmin. In
particular, it has the ability to enter "Course Points" and switch
between track and course points. I like the ability with a course to
see the upcoming elevation profile as well as the current distance to
the upcoming turns (more than just the next turn). I find the beep and
small screen prompt is sufficient to avoid missing a turn. I am
concerned with a route that it will take me off the official path-
that is not a worry with a course as long as I've set it up properly -
my error if I didn't, not the Garmin's.

The Garmin 705 limit of 100 Course Points in a given course file can
be a limiting factor on long rides (>300K), but I rarely have problems
with it if I break the course into a different file for each day.

Geoff