[rails-oceania] The Great Debate

[Gareth Townsend]

Just had an idea pop up in the CLEAR office for some of the next ruby meet ups.

Let's have a debate, using a real debate format.

No-SQL vs. SQL
Haml vs. Erb

Etc.

Let's get smart people voicing their opinions or those forced upon them by the team they are in.

A refreshing change from talks? Thoughts?

Sent from my iPad

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[Glen Maddern]

I think this is an awesome idea. Sledging for 2 minutes with a 30 second rebuttal :)

-glen.

Sent from my computer, but I also have an iPad and would like to tell you about it in my email signature.

[Andrew Grimm]

How about a festival of dangerous ideas?

Andrew

[Luke Chadwick]

It would be a good thought if it wasn't composed on an ipad ;)

- luke

[Dr Nic Williams]

"festival of dangerous ideas" - sounds brilliant as a theme/premise for an entire conference

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[Joshua Partogi]

The MySQL vs Postgres debate popped-up a few months ago. It would be
interesting to talk about that too.


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On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Gareth Townsend
<gareth....@me.com> wrote:
> Just had an idea pop up in the CLEAR office for some of the next ruby meet ups.
>
> Let's have a debate, using a real debate format.
>
> No-SQL vs. SQL
> Haml vs. Erb
>
> Etc.
>
> Let's get smart people voicing their opinions or those forced upon them by the team they are in.
>
> A refreshing change from talks? Thoughts?

[Ben Schwarz]

Not a bad idea Gareth. I'd think the key to success would be to pick a
few topics and have either a panel for each view or just *some method*
of knowing that there would be a strong, organised, pre-conceptualised
opinion for the rebuttal.

It could be very interesting, but given no prior-thought, it might be
a bit of a mess.
Also, 2(ish) hours of this would be very tiring. I'd like to see
sessions like this though.

[Ben Hoskings]

2010/4/21 Gareth Townsend <gareth....@me.com>

Just had an idea pop up in the CLEAR office for some of the next ruby meet ups.

Let's have a debate, using a real debate format.

No-SQL vs. SQL
Haml vs. Erb

Really awesome idea. I look forward to referring to Schwarz as "my esteemed opponent" during a HAML debate. :)

—ben_h

[Ryan Bigg]

Oh my god. This idea rocks and the "Festival of Dangerous Ideas" is just perfect as a title.

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[Gareth Townsend]

I'm stealing that name.

Not sent from my iPad

[Nathan de Vries]

On 21/04/2010, at 12:40 PM, Gareth Townsend wrote:
> I'm stealing that name.

The Sydney Opera House already has a Festival of Dangerous Ideas, so
consider it stolen.


Cheers,

Nathan

[Bodaniel Jeanes]

Love this idea. Would love to do the haml debate if it hasn't happened
by the time I get back from Europe. I could run for either side.

One interesting idea is to encourage people to play devils advocate
and not just fight for their legitimate opinions. We might learn
something.

[Michael Koukoullis]

> The Sydney Opera House already has a Festival of Dangerous Ideas, so  
> consider it stolen.

The Festival of Very Dangerous Ideas

[Lucas Parry]

This is a great idea, I think it'd probably result in much better
"introductions" to the debated technologies for those who dont know
much about them than the usual talk format.

lucas

[Nathan de Vries]

On 22/04/2010, at 1:12 AM, Michael Koukoullis wrote:
> The Festival of Very Dangerous Ideas

What about "First World Problems"?


Cheers,

Nathan

[Glen Maddern]

Haha yes!

[Keith Pitty]

I think Andrew may have already borrowed the name. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_of_Dangerous_Ideas

On 21/04/2010, at 12:40 PM, Gareth Townsend wrote:

[Xavier Shay]

On 22/04/10 9:39 AM, Nathan de Vries wrote:
> On 22/04/2010, at 1:12 AM, Michael Koukoullis wrote:
>> The Festival of Very Dangerous Ideas
>
> What about "First World Problems"?

+1, awesome

[Gareth Townsend]

So after pimping this idea at RORO Melbourne, who is keen to participate in a debate at the June Melbourne RORO meetup?

Cheers,
Gareth Townsend
http://www.garethtownsend.info
http://www.melbournecocoaheads.com

[Ben Schwarz]

We just need some topics. :-)

[Gareth Townsend]

For a less Ranty topic maybe something along the lines of:

"Testing is the hardest part of development"

[Andrew Grimm]

There's parts of development other than testing?

Andrew

[Julio Cesar Ody]

I actually agree with Gareth. It's a good suggestion, specially if you
think outside of Ruby for a minute.

> There's parts of development other than testing?

Yeah.

[Robert Gravina]

> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Gareth Townsend <gareth....@me.com> wrote:
>> For a less Ranty topic maybe something along the lines of:
>> "Testing is the hardest part of development"

Actually this I tend to agree with this, but not so much because it's
hard but because it's hard to do it well. Here's the most common
objection I get to writing tests:

"So I wrote the code in 15 mins and tried it out and it works but now
I have to spend 30 mins writing tests... what was the point of all
this again?"

OK, most of you are probably throwing things at your screens right now
but I've heard that before and experienced the fustration when I was
very new to rspec et al. Yes, when you test first and you're fluent in
rspec and your chosen mocking framework you can write the tests and
the code in 20 mins flat, but until you get there... there's not as
much of a (buzzword alert) ROI on automated tests (sorry!). So, how do
you get yourself/your teammates to perservere with the learning curve
until you reach that zen/enlightenment stage of testing? We all know
it's worth it, and sure there's the "you must eat your all your
vegetables before you can have any desert" approach (i.e. complain
loudly on the bugtracker), but unless you get (another buzzword)
buy-in from teammates/management it doesn't work so well..

I think I'm rambling now but I think (at least for me) what makes
testing hard is not testing itself, it's testing *productively* and
*getting new-to-testing developers who don't know (beyond the testing
mantra) why they should bother to test* which is most difficult.

Anyway, I can't actually attend any roro meetings/debates so feel free
to ignore me :) Also, compared to this audience I'm a relatively young
pup in the ruby world, so please feel free to turn your nose up at my
naive ramblings... but I felt like adding my 2c.

Robert

[Clifford Heath]

Robert,

Thanks for your thoughts... but...

Can I ask that we please leave the debate until the night?
It seems kinda pointless to have a great debate on a subject
we've become tired of, and where everyone already knows
what everyone else thinks...

Clifford Heath.

[Robert Gravina]

On 4 May 2010 21:17, Clifford Heath <cliffor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> Thanks for your thoughts... but...
>
> Can I ask that we please leave the debate until the night?
> It seems kinda pointless to have a great debate on a subject
> we've become tired of, and where everyone already knows
> what everyone else thinks...
>

Sure, debating here kind of defeats the purpose! Oops.

Robert

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[Shanon McQuay]

"I actually agree with Gareth."

You make it sound like its a rare event :P

[Ben Schwarz]

Cliff, Robert lives in Tokyo but just loves us too damn much to not
get involved.

On May 4, 10:17 pm, Clifford Heath <clifford.he...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> Thanks for your thoughts... but...
>
> Can I ask that we please leave the debate until the night?
> It seems kinda pointless to have a great debate on a subject
> we've become tired of, and where everyone already knows
> what everyone else thinks...
>
> Clifford Heath.
>
> On 04/05/2010, at 10:10 PM, Robert Gravina wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> >> On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Gareth Townsend <gareth.towns...@me.com

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en

[Clifford Heath]

On 04/05/2010, at 10:31 PM, Ben Schwarz wrote:
> Cliff, Robert lives in Tokyo but just loves us too damn much to not
> get involved.

It'll certainly be fun to open up the debate on the ML after
the night... but last time we started talking about possible
subjects, each one spawned a debate that lasted until the
yawn factor kicked in ;-).

Potential participants can always ask for *private* comment
beforehand from folk who won't attend on the night...

Clifford Heath.

> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en

[Robert Gravina]

On 4 May 2010 21:31, Ben Schwarz <ben.s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cliff, Robert lives in Tokyo but just loves us too damn much to not
> get involved.
>

:). It's true. I particularly enjoy using fantastic but unknown to
Japan roro code in my projects (e.g. Raphael, formtastic). Hilarity
ensues.

One of the ways I could start to get involved a bit more is to watch
some of the backlog of roro presentation recordings with an ice-cold
glass of Asahi, Yebisu, Sapporo or Kirin and see what I've been
missing.

Robert

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[Gareth Townsend]

I agree, lets leave the debate for the night.

What I need from Melbourne people:

1. Debate topic suggestions (otherwise I'll just pick one and you'll be stuck debating what your favourite piece of unicorn meat is)
2. Volunteers to participate in the debate.
3. Volunteers to sponsor prizes for the winning team (maybe?)

Cheers,
Gareth Townsend
http://www.garethtownsend.info
http://www.melbournecocoaheads.com

[Clifford Heath]

Here's a notion. What about asking the volunteers to prepare the
chosen debate, but to draw lots *on the night* to see who gets
to debate *which side*.

Topic Proposal: Validations vs Database constraints
Topic Proposal: CSS frameworks vs hand-crafted CSS

Clifford Heath.

[Keith Pitt]

Is there anyway you can stream the debate online? Maybe someone with a webcam and Ustream (or something)

Sucks being in Adelaide :(

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Cheers,
Gareth Townsend
http://www.garethtownsend.info
http://www.melbournecocoaheads.com




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[Ben Schwarz]

Hey Keith, 

We'll work on recording the session. Sometimes people don't want to be recorded when they're at a user group and speaking to the room because they can be taken out of context - or they just don't like cameras. We'll see what we can do. 

[Nicholas Faiz]

Hi Gareth,

On May 5, 10:21 am, Gareth Townsend <gareth.towns...@me.com> wrote:
> What I need from Melbourne people:
>
> 1. Debate topic suggestions (otherwise I'll just pick one and you'll be stuck debating what your favourite piece of unicorn meat is)

"Why vim is a better IDE for Ruby than Textmate/Rubymine/xyz IDE?"

This topic might run the risk of violence though ...!

I've thought a good objective comparison between IDEs is needed. I've
often heard people dismiss tools like RubyMine out of hand, in favour
of their vim skills, and watched them move slowly through refactoring
or debugging which TM or RM might have flown through (though I have no
doubt that many vim practitioners can move at optimal speeds).

Just an idea.A debate might not be the best format for an objective
comparison, but it might prompt questions which would lead there.

Cheers,
Nicholas

> 2. Volunteers to participate in the debate.
> 3. Volunteers to sponsor prizes for the winning team (maybe?)
>
> On 04/05/2010, at 10:42 PM, Robert Gravina wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4 May 2010 21:31, Ben Schwarz <ben.schw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Cliff, Robert lives in Tokyo but just loves us too damn much to not
> >> get involved.
>
> > :). It's true. I particularly enjoy using fantastic but unknown to
> > Japan roro code in my projects (e.g. Raphael, formtastic). Hilarity
> > ensues.
>
> > One of the ways I could start to get involved a bit more is to watch
> > some of the backlog of roro presentation recordings with an ice-cold
> > glass of Asahi, Yebisu, Sapporo or Kirin and see what I've been
> > missing.
>
> > Robert
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group.
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>
> Cheers,

> Gareth Townsendhttp://www.garethtownsend.infohttp://www.melbournecocoaheads.com

>
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[Luke Cunningham]

Hey guys.

I'm wondering if any one has had experience with hancock or rubycas
for single sign on.

I have a rails app which uses authlogic for authentication, and I want
to use it as the login point for a few services.

Will rubycas or hancock help me with that or is there an easier way?

Everything will be running on heroku, and while I have managed to get
instances of everything running obviously they can't point to my main
apps database so Maybe they would have to run within my app? Rack/metal?

Cheers
Luke

[Leonardo Borges]

I've used rubycas on my last project with restful authentication as
the login entry point. Works pretty well... You should be able to get
that working with the setup u suggested but let me know if I cab help
with anything.

Cheers,

Leonardo Borges
www.leonardoborges.com

On 06/05/2010, at 7:46 AM, Luke Cunningham

[James A. Rosen]

You might take a look at my "Casrack the Authenticator" gem -- it's a
Rack middleware for authentication via CAS: http://rubygems.org/gems/casrack_the_authenticator

I hope shameless self-promotion is permitted on this list :)

-James

On May 5, 5:46 pm, Luke Cunningham <absentee.landl...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Luke Cunningham]

Thanks leonardo, that sounds promising I might give restful auth a go
If there is no way to make rubycas or hancock run as a rack app and
access the same db as authlogic.

I have tried and can get them running but the routes don't seem to
work. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Cheers

Luke


On 06/05/2010, at 11:04 AM, Leonardo Borges

<leonardo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've used rubycas on my last project with restful authentication as
> the login entry point. Works pretty well... You should be able to
> get that working with the setup u suggested but let me know if I cab
> help with anything.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Leonardo Borges
> www.leonardoborges.com
>
> On 06/05/2010, at 7:46 AM, Luke Cunningham <absentee...@gmail.com

> > wrote:
>
>> Hey guys.
>>
>> I'm wondering if any one has had experience with hancock or rubycas
>> for single sign on.
>>
>> I have a rails app which uses authlogic for authentication, and I
>> want to use it as the login point for a few services.
>>
>> Will rubycas or hancock help me with that or is there an easier way?
>>
>> Everything will be running on heroku, and while I have managed to
>> get instances of everything running obviously they can't point to
>> my main apps database so Maybe they would have to run within my
>> app? Rack/metal?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Luke
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Ruby or Rails Oceania" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to rails-...@googlegroups.com.
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>> .

>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rails-oceania?hl=en
>> .
>>
>

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[absentee...@gmail.com]

that looks cool james, thanks for the info..

its a CAS client though right?

Im looking for a CAS server.

I'll will however definitely give it a go in the apps that need to authenticate against my main app.

[Mikel Lindsaar]

There is a RubyCAS server that i have been playing with.

it is very complete from first brush.

Google RubyCAS

Mikel

[Nicholas Faiz]

Yes, there's a rubycas-server & a rubycas-client (which is also a
Rails 2.x plugin).

It's a great project for SSO. You should have a look at it.

Nicholas

On May 9, 2:04 pm, Mikel Lindsaar <raasd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a RubyCAS server that i have been playing with.
>
> it is very complete from first brush.
>
> Google RubyCAS
>
> Mikel
>

> On 7, May 2010, at 7 May 12:04, absentee.landl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > that looks cool james, thanks for the info..
> > its a CAS client though right?
> > Im looking for a CAS server.
> > I'll will however definitely give it a go in the apps that need to authenticate against my main app.
>

[Josh Bassett]

On 05/05/2010, at 2:27 PM, Nicholas Faiz wrote:

> "Why vim is a better IDE for Ruby than Textmate/Rubymine/xyz IDE?"

I for one am not prepared to die for my text editor (vim). There's a lot of "passionate" Textmate users out there who paid good money for their text editor ;)

[Luke Cunningham]

Thanks guys, I have got instances of ruby-cas and hancock both running
and like them both as solutions but I need to be able to run them on
top of my rails app. ie as rack midleware or something. So they can
talk to the same db on heroku.

Can I even do this?

I have tried, and they seem to be running but the routes to the sso
app are being ignored.

Looking for workarounds to not being able to point ruby-cas or hancock
to my main apps db to authenticate.

Cheers.

Sent from my iPhone

On 09/05/2010, at 3:04 PM, Nicholas Faiz <nichol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>>> oce...@googlegroups.com.