>> Our biggest problem right now is not Matt's talk per se, not even >> porn, sexism etc. though these are serious issues too. The problem is >> that we can't treat the problem in a satisfactory way, or at least >> suggest a plan how might that happen.
> I agree with that. Here's one proposal: Start rating your conference > or track according to the material. The movie standards of PG, M, and > R would do just fine. Then people can self-select on the type of > content that they're willing to hear.
> I, for example, can just make sure that I only attend or speak at M > and R rated conferences and tracks. If you're offended by profanity, > for example, you'd be forewarned that sitting in on an M or R track > would be a bad idea.
> That's how a movie theater manages to cater to all kinds of people > from all kinds of backgrounds. I think that fits well for this.
This didn't make it to the slides posted on the web, but at the conference, Josh did make a point of warning the audience about the content before Matt gave his presentation. Maybe that has something to do with why there wasn't a whole lot of (obvious) negative response in the room at the time.
We've already addressed the problem of "who was offended by the presentation?", but perhaps a more interesting question is this: why was the presentation so offensive? Was it the content? The audience? The lack of a disclaimer? The whole thing being taken out of context when the slides hit the web by themselves?
I realize I'm late to the party on this, and I am sorry for not
speaking up sooner considering I'm in the Activism group.
Matt is a very respectable developer, and I am certain he did not
intend to offend anyone with his presentation. However, it was
controversial enough to be the tipping point into this fiasco. No
doubt Matt will be more cautious next time to avoid offending.
More of us seem to have an issue with DHH's response. We all know DHH
is very opinionated, and in that is his strength. I guarentee you will
not agree with all of his opinions - I know I don't. But that does not
matter. Nowhere did I see DHH speaking for the Rails community, he
only spoke for himself.
DHH opinion != Rails community opinion, especially on non-technical
issues. Until we grasp that concept Rails will not grow.
We all make up the Rails community, and from the outside all this
bickering looks pretty immature and hurts our image. Please, I'm
asking you to take a more mature stance. Avoid the knee jerk
reactions, and if you get offended, let it cool for an hour before
posting your response. We are all programmers, and programmers are
problem solvers. Let's try to solve this problem in a constructive
manner.
Thanks,
Ryan
On Apr 28, 4:01 pm, Rowan Malling <rowan.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Rails core team, activists, and community as a whole, don't have a
> contract with anyone. It's open source. Everyone can do/say/publish
> what they like. And that's great, that's gotten us this awesome
> framework, and this awesome community.
> As someone who is a big champion of Rails - and I think this is
> certainly echo'd in people that have to actively "sell in" Rails,
> *perception is reality* until you've demonstrated a working
> application. At that point results speak for themselves.
> However until you've gotten to the results part - What happens when a
> business stakeholder, at the sell-in stage, goes and Googles and finds
> these kinds of things ? They have no material bearing on whether Rails
> is productive or not, we all know this, it's irrelevant of course. But
> every little stumbling block that you get faced with is one you don't
> need some days.
> If you go to an R rated conference track and have an "edgy"
> presentation, all well and good, but as soon as it get's published
> hits Google, it's not R rated any longer, it's mainstream and fodder
> for the nay sayers. The movie analogy falls down there.
> So to the custodians, and by that I really mean people who are
> publicly visible (or intending on being publicly visible by doing
> something equally edgy), please take this as food for thought.
> I for one, want to see more Rails use in businesses grow. The more
> problems people tackle, solve, and share the more we all benefit.
> Cheers
> Rowan
> On Apr 28, 6:02 pm, DHH <david.heineme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Our biggest problem right now is not Matt's talk per se, not even
> > > porn, sexism etc. though these are serious issues too. The problem is
> > > that we can't treat the problem in a satisfactory way, or at least
> > > suggest a plan how might that happen.
> > I agree with that. Here's one proposal: Start rating your conference
> > or track according to the material. The movie standards of PG, M, and
> > R would do just fine. Then people can self-select on the type of
> > content that they're willing to hear.
> > I, for example, can just make sure that I only attend or speak at M
> > and R rated conferences and tracks. If you're offended by profanity,
> > for example, you'd be forewarned that sitting in on an M or R track
> > would be a bad idea.
> > That's how a movie theater manages to cater to all kinds of people
> > from all kinds of backgrounds. I think that fits well for this.
DHH's opinions do matter. As a kind of spokesman, he needs to be more
cognizant
of that, because whatever he says will be heard from a large chunk of
the Rails
community.
I will grant he has a right to voice opinions on political or non
technical matters as much
as the next person. BUT - doing so risks putting off or offending a
portion of the Rails
community.
Offending parts or segments of the open source community defeats the
point - Rails
will meet its full potential only if the full force of the entire
community's expertise - and
ingenuity - is behind Rails evolution and development.
People change employment because they may find the corporate culture
or people not
to their liking. Let's hope the same kind of thing doesn't happen
here within the Rails
community. As much fun as Rails is, there will always be other tools,
perhaps even
better than Rails. Far fetched? Not at all - that's the beauty of
software development.
Unfortunately, I think DHH will be DHH. I'd be surprised if he
changed from the things
I've seen...
Since everyone else is, I thought I would throw in my thoughts on this
topic.
Every single day we see in the news someone getting offended by
something and demanding apologies, etc. Let's make one thing
absolutely clear: Matt cannot offend anyone, you CHOOSE to be
offended. YOU control what you think and feel, no one else can. Why
should Matt apologize because you've chosen to be offended by some
very tame sexual images. (I have to agree with DHH on that. If this
were a movie, I think it could only rate a PG). One criteria I have
for deciding to do something or not is whether what you do hurts
yourself or someone else. Sex (or suggestions of sex) between
consenting adults is not harmful, sorry. Is Matt sorry for giving the
presentation? I wouldn't be. I have no control over how anyone
responds and look at the exposure his talk has received!
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:13 PM, bmctigue <bruce.mcti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since everyone else is, I thought I would throw in my thoughts on this
> topic.
> Every single day we see in the news someone getting offended by
> something and demanding apologies, etc. Let's make one thing
> absolutely clear: Matt cannot offend anyone, you CHOOSE to be
> offended. YOU control what you think and feel, no one else can. Why
> should Matt apologize because you've chosen to be offended by some
> very tame sexual images. (I have to agree with DHH on that. If this
> were a movie, I think it could only rate a PG). One criteria I have
> for deciding to do something or not is whether what you do hurts
> yourself or someone else. Sex (or suggestions of sex) between
> consenting adults is not harmful, sorry. Is Matt sorry for giving the
> presentation? I wouldn't be. I have no control over how anyone
> responds and look at the exposure his talk has received!
Rails is a great framework that speaks for itself. If you're offended
by an opinionated Rails developer enough to be driven to another
framework.....have fun in Cake or ASP.NET and good riddance.
Thank DHH and Matt for their invaluable contributions to the community/
framework that make our lives easier and get back to writing great
apps.
-PK
On Apr 28, 9:26 pm, Matt Aimonetti <mattaimone...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:13 PM, bmctigue <bruce.mcti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Since everyone else is, I thought I would throw in my thoughts on this
> > topic.
> > Every single day we see in the news someone getting offended by
> > something and demanding apologies, etc. Let's make one thing
> > absolutely clear: Matt cannot offend anyone, you CHOOSE to be
> > offended. YOU control what you think and feel, no one else can. Why
> > should Matt apologize because you've chosen to be offended by some
> > very tame sexual images. (I have to agree with DHH on that. If this
> > were a movie, I think it could only rate a PG). One criteria I have
> > for deciding to do something or not is whether what you do hurts
> > yourself or someone else. Sex (or suggestions of sex) between
> > consenting adults is not harmful, sorry. Is Matt sorry for giving the
> > presentation? I wouldn't be. I have no control over how anyone
> > responds and look at the exposure his talk has received!
Ok, I am late to this discussion as well, but I think I could try my 2
cents as an activist.
First of all, all we are doing here is just adding more fuel to this
fire. There is nothing that we can say right now to make it stop. Even
if Matt apologizes, the pundits will keep on going saying stuff like
"aha, now he apologizes, but we are sure he doesn't really mean it".
But rest assured that it will go away very fast. No one will be
talking about this in a couple of days.
From what I understand, it all started with a couple of blog posts and
tweets about Matt's presentation from very few offended people (people
get offended too easily nowadays). Because of the inflamatory nature
of those posts, it soon wreaked havoc all over the blogosphere,
scalating very fast. Add DHH's posts and our own public manifestations
to that, and you have a sudden surge of random reactions. That's how
riots begin.
Those who are actively trying to burn the "ruby community" or whatnot
are the pundits that are used to troll anyway, they will hold up to
any little thing as a reason to start ranting again. It is the same as
hooligans: there is no reasoning with them.
That said, I don't think Matt apologizing will do any good in the
general matter of things. We are witnessing a riot, not a democratic
discussion in a closed room with a moderator. Neither I think any of
us should be publicly apologetic or anything like that. The only thing
that will make this go away is for all of us activists to simply
ignore the noise. If someone is actually willing to discuss it and
asks any of us our opinion, then maybe we can address them in private.
Unfortunately there is no sending the SWAT team with gas to make this
riot stop, so the only thing to kill a fire without water is to stop
putting more fuel to it. It will go away very soon and no one will
remember about it. I think DHH could've make this shorter by not
blogging :-) But, heck, what the hell, I don't disagree with the
content either. I would hate anyone telling me what to write or say,
so I won't do it as well.
About the specifics, Matt's slides are not offensive. That is "a"
opinion, not "the" opinion. My personal opinion. Contrary opinions are
also valid. What more, this is also a matter of culture and locale. In
Brazil, people would barely notice, even with women in the room. And I
am not saying that we are pro-sexysm, not at all (foreigners do have
this idea about latin americans, though). Seriously, there are much
more explicit stuff broadcasted in the public TV network here, in the
afternoon, than those few slides. And guess what: most of the trolls
ranting online have not even seen those slides, they are just
repeating what others are saying. As I said, this is not a moralistic
discussion, this is just a matter of who yells louder.
I think most of us know Matt and we know for a fact that he is not a
sociopath or anything like that, so we gain nothing with him out. On
the contrary, we lose a lot. If we apply censorship once, people will
demand it again later for much less, and all of a sudden we are
trapped. And we don't need to, as far as no one is breaking the laws,
we are free to do whatever we please. Are there boundaries? Sure, but
they are not written on stone and no one can assume what the other
should or should not know, specially in a globalized environment. We
get no rules manual when we sign in. We learn from our mistakes, we
discuss it friendly, and if it were really a mistake, next time it
won't happen.
And leaders are not supposed to be perfect. Leaders are also not
supposed to do whatever the public demands. I can make a roster of
known leaders with very nasty backgrounds - we all know them -, and
they are still considered good leaders. History will judge (though we
all know that history is written by those who were victorious).
Now, people leaving Rails because of what DHH say? The Rails community
dismantling because of a statement? Hardly. Some people will agree,
some will disagree, no matter what. Some people would like to see DHH
quiet, some people would claim for DHH to rant some more. He won't be
able to please everyone even if he decides to disappear. The pundits
will say "DHH's been too quiet lately, I bet he is leaving the
community, Rails is doomed as we've foreseen". Pundits will be pundits
no matter what.
If people stick with Rails just because of some people's opinion, I
would recommend them to reflect about it. Most of the real Railers
stick with Rails because of the community in general, not one single
individual. When Linus Torvalds said that "subversion is the most
pointless project ever", I doubt that the subversion fans left Linux.
They stick with Linux because of the technology and the community as a
whole, not because they particularly like Linus. I advocate open
source, but I am not very fond of Stallman. That's how communities are
anyway.
Well, sorry for the long text, I still don't know how to control my
writing :-)
On Apr 28, 8:09 pm, Ryan Bates <r...@railscasts.com> wrote:
> I realize I'm late to the party on this, and I am sorry for not
> speaking up sooner considering I'm in the Activism group.
> Matt is a very respectable developer, and I am certain he did not
> intend to offend anyone with his presentation. However, it was
> controversial enough to be the tipping point into this fiasco. No
> doubt Matt will be more cautious next time to avoid offending.
> More of us seem to have an issue with DHH's response. We all know DHH
> is very opinionated, and in that is his strength. I guarentee you will
> not agree with all of his opinions - I know I don't. But that does not
> matter. Nowhere did I see DHH speaking for the Rails community, he
> only spoke for himself.
> DHH opinion != Rails community opinion, especially on non-technical
> issues. Until we grasp that concept Rails will not grow.
> We all make up the Rails community, and from the outside all this
> bickering looks pretty immature and hurts our image. Please, I'm
> asking you to take a more mature stance. Avoid the knee jerk
> reactions, and if you get offended, let it cool for an hour before
> posting your response. We are all programmers, and programmers are
> problem solvers. Let's try to solve this problem in a constructive
> manner.
> Thanks,
> Ryan
> On Apr 28, 4:01 pm, Rowan Malling <rowan.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Rails core team, activists, and community as a whole, don't have a
> > contract with anyone. It's open source. Everyone can do/say/publish
> > what they like. And that's great, that's gotten us this awesome
> > framework, and this awesome community.
> > As someone who is a big champion of Rails - and I think this is
> > certainly echo'd in people that have to actively "sell in" Rails,
> > *perception is reality* until you've demonstrated a working
> > application. At that point results speak for themselves.
> > However until you've gotten to the results part - What happens when a
> > business stakeholder, at the sell-in stage, goes and Googles and finds
> > these kinds of things ? They have no material bearing on whether Rails
> > is productive or not, we all know this, it's irrelevant of course. But
> > every little stumbling block that you get faced with is one you don't
> > need some days.
> > If you go to an R rated conference track and have an "edgy"
> > presentation, all well and good, but as soon as it get's published
> > hits Google, it's not R rated any longer, it's mainstream and fodder
> > for the nay sayers. The movie analogy falls down there.
> > So to the custodians, and by that I really mean people who are
> > publicly visible (or intending on being publicly visible by doing
> > something equally edgy), please take this as food for thought.
> > I for one, want to see more Rails use in businesses grow. The more
> > problems people tackle, solve, and share the more we all benefit.
> > Cheers
> > Rowan
> > On Apr 28, 6:02 pm, DHH <david.heineme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Our biggest problem right now is not Matt's talk per se, not even
> > > > porn, sexism etc. though these are serious issues too. The problem is
> > > > that we can't treat the problem in a satisfactory way, or at least
> > > > suggest a plan how might that happen.
> > > I agree with that. Here's one proposal: Start rating your conference
> > > or track according to the material. The movie standards of PG, M, and
> > > R would do just fine. Then people can self-select on the type of
> > > content that they're willing to hear.
> > > I, for example, can just make sure that I only attend or speak at M
> > > and R rated conferences and tracks. If you're offended by profanity,
> > > for example, you'd be forewarned that sitting in on an M or R track
> > > would be a bad idea.
> > > That's how a movie theater manages to cater to all kinds of people
> > > from all kinds of backgrounds. I think that fits well for this.
> This is actually not a bad idea. My wife and I attend a yearly > homeschool conference because we do in fact homeschool our children. A > good percentage of homeschoolers are religious, but not all of them. > At first most were and so most classes at the conf involved religous > discussions, however, as time went on, and more and more famililes > entered homeschooling, the target audience became less niche, and more > mainstream. People began complaining that they were being blind sided > by religion when it was unexpected. So, a few years ago, they began to > note on the schedule which classes contained religious content and you > could choose to avoid it if it offended you.
> The thing is, wether Matt offended anyone or not, he has the right to > say what he wants when he's speaking. And you as an attendee have the > right to love it or hate it. You can complain if you want, you can > choose to never attend his talks again, or you can applaud him. His > freedom to present, your freedom to receive. You can even get up and > walk out. But its not your right to try and censor what somebody has > to say. If enough attendees complain to a conference, you might > persuade the conf to no longer invite that speaker, and if not, then > your are in the minority and you have to live with it.
> There are an awful lot of people in this day and age who seem to be > offended by just about everything...and almost seek a chance to be > offended. That's your right, just as much as its Matt's right to use > hot chicks to make a point. Personally, I'm glad I live in a country > where this kind of freedom exists, and though I could do without some > of frequent usage of "colorful" words in RoR talks now days I'm not > about to ask for people to step down or be silenced, because I know I > can leave, and even stop attending if need be.
> If you think the information should be presented without content that > offends you, then do so, and be such a fantastic presenter that more > people attend your talks than those you find offensive. This has > nothing at all to do with the RoR community. You can find a way to be > offended in anything you do, from anyone you are around, in anything > you watch, or in anything you read, but thankfully, you have the > freedom to choose who to be around, what to do with your time, what to > watch and what to read. You can also choose which web framework to > use, and the framework you choose is independent of the presentation > content provided at any conference or the language and styles used by > any presenters.
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:02 PM, DHH <david.heineme...@gmail.com > <mailto:david.heineme...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Our biggest problem right now is not Matt's talk per se, not even
> > porn, sexism etc. though these are serious issues too. The
> problem is
> > that we can't treat the problem in a satisfactory way, or at least
> > suggest a plan how might that happen.
> I agree with that. Here's one proposal: Start rating your conference
> or track according to the material. The movie standards of PG, M, and
> R would do just fine. Then people can self-select on the type of
> content that they're willing to hear.
> I, for example, can just make sure that I only attend or speak at M
> and R rated conferences and tracks. If you're offended by profanity,
> for example, you'd be forewarned that sitting in on an M or R track
> would be a bad idea.
> That's how a movie theater manages to cater to all kinds of people
> from all kinds of backgrounds. I think that fits well for this.
Couldn't agree more, and my great disappointment to date isn't the
action, but rather the reaction -- David's (sorry) in particular.
This isn't about free speech. It's about whether slides at a
professional conference that depict strippers, orgies, naked people
(of whatever gender) are appropriate. Believe me, I'm not a prude by
any stretch, but how anyone can defend that is beyond me. You don't
have to personally find issue with the content of that presentation to
conclude that it simply doesn't belong at a professional conference.
Leah mentioned research on the subject. For those interested, here's
an article that appeared recently in my rag recently. Sobering.
http://bitly.com/f4PQ
On Apr 28, 4:14 pm, Leah Silber <leahpark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Personal thoughts on what happened aside, the suggestion to "remove"
> Matt is a massively overreaching overreaction, and would be a thousand
> times more disappointing than what happened. He apologized, many time,
> to many people -- subjectively judging the sincerity of that apology
> is NOT okay, nor is burning him at the stake.
> If the community has issues with demographic imbalances, it's not
> Matt's fault, and none of these lines of reasoning are doing anything
> to help it. In fact, I've never felt alienated by the community until
> all these offended-on-my-behalf men (and the few women) started
> telling me how offended I was supposed to be... Whatever the gender
> issues are, they've got nothing to do with the quality of the men or
> people in the Ruby community. Said it before, will say it again. The
> research has been around for a while, it's not exclusive to Ruby.
> Check it out if you're interested, but it's an unrelated conversation.
> Lastly, I find the generalization that this offended women to be
> offensive. It offended *people* -- not women selectively or by any
> majority. See? It's a slippery slope and we'd best err on the side of
> being open-minded, rather than calling for book (or slide, as it were)
> burnings.
> -- Leah
> On Apr 28, 1:00 pm, Pedro Visintin <pedro.visin...@gmail.com> wrote:> I believe that this community as many others has to be place to make
> > mistakes, and learn from them and continue growing and doing things better
> > every day, put the interest on the community and left the ego aside (hard to
> > do for several people).
> > I will don't judge, because I have my point of view, but if it was a
> > mistake, just dialogue and learn from it.
> > My 2 cents.
> > P
> > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Dana Jones <djo...@larkfarm.com> wrote:
> > > Gregg,
> > > Speaking only for myself, I've been toying with the idea of mentoring
> > > a local girl (maybe junior high or high school age) into development.
> > > I know that I came to the game (dev) much later than most, largely
> > > because computers seemed scary and foreign and impossibly complicated.
> > > Do girls nowadays still feel that way? Maybe not as many, but the
> > > girls I come into contact with (through other pursuits like martial
> > > arts) still seem to have some kind of techno-fear.
> > > That's only one piece of the puzzle, though, and as you point out the
> > > community needs to be more accepting across the board. I don't have
> > > any answers for that one but am keen to hear others'.
> > > Dana
> > > On Apr 28, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Gregg Pollack wrote:
> > > > In my opinion the real issue here is "What can we do as the Rails
> > > > community to create an environment that is just as welcoming and
> > > > friendly to everyone regardless of sex, race, or otherwise." (aside
> > > > from not creating slide presentations which have the possibility of
> > > > offending people)
You know what I find offensive to women? The attitude that pornography is
somehow especially offensive to women and we need to tip toe around that
lightly. I think DHH summed it up nicely when he said that calling this
porn was offensive to porn.
Grow up everyone.
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Aron Pilhofer <aronpilho...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Couldn't agree more, and my great disappointment to date isn't the
> action, but rather the reaction -- David's (sorry) in particular.
> This isn't about free speech. It's about whether slides at a
> professional conference that depict strippers, orgies, naked people
> (of whatever gender) are appropriate. Believe me, I'm not a prude by
> any stretch, but how anyone can defend that is beyond me. You don't
> have to personally find issue with the content of that presentation to
> conclude that it simply doesn't belong at a professional conference.
> Leah mentioned research on the subject. For those interested, here's
> an article that appeared recently in my rag recently. Sobering.
> http://bitly.com/f4PQ
> > Personal thoughts on what happened aside, the suggestion to "remove"
> > Matt is a massively overreaching overreaction, and would be a thousand
> > times more disappointing than what happened. He apologized, many time,
> > to many people -- subjectively judging the sincerity of that apology
> > is NOT okay, nor is burning him at the stake.
> > If the community has issues with demographic imbalances, it's not
> > Matt's fault, and none of these lines of reasoning are doing anything
> > to help it. In fact, I've never felt alienated by the community until
> > all these offended-on-my-behalf men (and the few women) started
> > telling me how offended I was supposed to be... Whatever the gender
> > issues are, they've got nothing to do with the quality of the men or
> > people in the Ruby community. Said it before, will say it again. The
> > research has been around for a while, it's not exclusive to Ruby.
> > Check it out if you're interested, but it's an unrelated conversation.
> > Lastly, I find the generalization that this offended women to be
> > offensive. It offended *people* -- not women selectively or by any
> > majority. See? It's a slippery slope and we'd best err on the side of
> > being open-minded, rather than calling for book (or slide, as it were)
> > burnings.
> > -- Leah
> > On Apr 28, 1:00 pm, Pedro Visintin <pedro.visin...@gmail.com> wrote:> I
> believe that this community as many others has to be place to make
> > > mistakes, and learn from them and continue growing and doing things
> better
> > > every day, put the interest on the community and left the ego aside
> (hard to
> > > do for several people).
> > > I will don't judge, because I have my point of view, but if it was a
> > > mistake, just dialogue and learn from it.
> > > My 2 cents.
> > > P
> > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Dana Jones <djo...@larkfarm.com>
> wrote:
> > > > Gregg,
> > > > Speaking only for myself, I've been toying with the idea of mentoring
> > > > a local girl (maybe junior high or high school age) into development.
> > > > I know that I came to the game (dev) much later than most, largely
> > > > because computers seemed scary and foreign and impossibly
> complicated.
> > > > Do girls nowadays still feel that way? Maybe not as many, but the
> > > > girls I come into contact with (through other pursuits like martial
> > > > arts) still seem to have some kind of techno-fear.
> > > > That's only one piece of the puzzle, though, and as you point out the
> > > > community needs to be more accepting across the board. I don't have
> > > > any answers for that one but am keen to hear others'.
> > > > Dana
> > > > On Apr 28, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Gregg Pollack wrote:
> > > > > In my opinion the real issue here is "What can we do as the Rails
> > > > > community to create an environment that is just as welcoming and
> > > > > friendly to everyone regardless of sex, race, or otherwise."
> (aside
> > > > > from not creating slide presentations which have the possibility of
> > > > > offending people)
> > > > > What more do you think we can do?
> > > > > Gregg Pollack
> > > --
> > > Pedro Visintin . S o f t w a r e A r c h i t e c thttp://
> www.pedrovisintin.com
It isn't offensive to women. It is offensive to some people. Some
people also believe that there is a time and place for viewing
pornography, and a conference talk is not one of those places.
Especially at a conference that is open to developers under 18. Where
ids checked at the door. I for one would not like my son or daughters
to be subject to that presentation. I also would not keep my children
from going to a developer conference that I assume is going to be
about code and not contain such material.
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Ian Swope <ian.sw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You know what I find offensive to women? The attitude that pornography is
> somehow especially offensive to women and we need to tip toe around that
> lightly. I think DHH summed it up nicely when he said that calling this
> porn was offensive to porn.
> Grow up everyone.
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Aron Pilhofer <aronpilho...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Leah,
>> Couldn't agree more, and my great disappointment to date isn't the
>> action, but rather the reaction -- David's (sorry) in particular.
>> This isn't about free speech. It's about whether slides at a
>> professional conference that depict strippers, orgies, naked people
>> (of whatever gender) are appropriate. Believe me, I'm not a prude by
>> any stretch, but how anyone can defend that is beyond me. You don't
>> have to personally find issue with the content of that presentation to
>> conclude that it simply doesn't belong at a professional conference.
>> Leah mentioned research on the subject. For those interested, here's
>> an article that appeared recently in my rag recently. Sobering.
>> http://bitly.com/f4PQ
>> > Personal thoughts on what happened aside, the suggestion to "remove"
>> > Matt is a massively overreaching overreaction, and would be a thousand
>> > times more disappointing than what happened. He apologized, many time,
>> > to many people -- subjectively judging the sincerity of that apology
>> > is NOT okay, nor is burning him at the stake.
>> > If the community has issues with demographic imbalances, it's not
>> > Matt's fault, and none of these lines of reasoning are doing anything
>> > to help it. In fact, I've never felt alienated by the community until
>> > all these offended-on-my-behalf men (and the few women) started
>> > telling me how offended I was supposed to be... Whatever the gender
>> > issues are, they've got nothing to do with the quality of the men or
>> > people in the Ruby community. Said it before, will say it again. The
>> > research has been around for a while, it's not exclusive to Ruby.
>> > Check it out if you're interested, but it's an unrelated conversation.
>> > Lastly, I find the generalization that this offended women to be
>> > offensive. It offended *people* -- not women selectively or by any
>> > majority. See? It's a slippery slope and we'd best err on the side of
>> > being open-minded, rather than calling for book (or slide, as it were)
>> > burnings.
>> > -- Leah
>> > On Apr 28, 1:00 pm, Pedro Visintin <pedro.visin...@gmail.com> wrote:> I
>> > believe that this community as many others has to be place to make
>> > > mistakes, and learn from them and continue growing and doing things
>> > > better
>> > > every day, put the interest on the community and left the ego aside
>> > > (hard to
>> > > do for several people).
>> > > I will don't judge, because I have my point of view, but if it was a
>> > > mistake, just dialogue and learn from it.
>> > > My 2 cents.
>> > > P
>> > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Dana Jones <djo...@larkfarm.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > Gregg,
>> > > > Speaking only for myself, I've been toying with the idea of
>> > > > mentoring
>> > > > a local girl (maybe junior high or high school age) into
>> > > > development.
>> > > > I know that I came to the game (dev) much later than most, largely
>> > > > because computers seemed scary and foreign and impossibly
>> > > > complicated.
>> > > > Do girls nowadays still feel that way? Maybe not as many, but the
>> > > > girls I come into contact with (through other pursuits like martial
>> > > > arts) still seem to have some kind of techno-fear.
>> > > > That's only one piece of the puzzle, though, and as you point out
>> > > > the
>> > > > community needs to be more accepting across the board. I don't have
>> > > > any answers for that one but am keen to hear others'.
>> > > > Dana
>> > > > On Apr 28, 2009, at 2:49 PM, Gregg Pollack wrote:
>> > > > > In my opinion the real issue here is "What can we do as the
>> > > > > Rails
>> > > > > community to create an environment that is just as welcoming and
>> > > > > friendly to everyone regardless of sex, race, or otherwise."
>> > > > > (aside
>> > > > > from not creating slide presentations which have the possibility
>> > > > > of
>> > > > > offending people)
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Ian Swope <ian.sw...@gmail.com> wrote: > You know what I find offensive to women? The attitude that pornography is > somehow especially offensive to women and we need to tip toe around that > lightly. I think DHH summed it up nicely when he said that calling this > porn was offensive to porn.
I think there are many edges in this discussion.
* Whether the slides themselves were appropriate or offensive
* Whether Matt's presentation and/or reaction to this stuff is appropriate *being an activist*
* Whether this is just a snow ball that has gotten too far and out of proportion
* Whether this kind of stuff has anything to do about woman being computer scientists, and other kinds of generalisations like this about the community as a whole
* Whether the reaction of Rails core member is this or that, whether they should behave this or that way, whether the core are seen as representatives of the community even in non-technical stuff
* ... surely there are people with emphasis on some other aspect of this issue
In my opinion that results in a big mess, and a mess fragmented in tweets, blogs, private emails, etc. You can't have an ordered and rational discussion this way. It's a delicate topic, and there are many viewpoints involved.
The Rails community is big, I'd love to see that this calms down and everyone goes back to the *work* we are doing together to build Rails. I'd love to have Mike back as well, I felt sad when I read his post, his work is so awesome, but of course I respect his decission.
The rails community should be focusing on rails. The conference
itself is the issue. The personal opinions of members of the
community should not have any effect on the work we are getting done.
If you don't like a conference then don't go. If you are running a
conference and their are parts that maybe considered inappropriate for
some age groups then require a certain age and check ids.
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Xavier Noria <f...@hashref.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Ian Swope <ian.sw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You know what I find offensive to women? The attitude that pornography is
>> somehow especially offensive to women and we need to tip toe around that
>> lightly. I think DHH summed it up nicely when he said that calling this
>> porn was offensive to porn.
> I think there are many edges in this discussion.
> * Whether the slides themselves were appropriate or offensive
> * Whether Matt's presentation and/or reaction to this stuff is
> appropriate *being an activist*
> * Whether this is just a snow ball that has gotten too far and out of proportion
> * Whether this kind of stuff has anything to do about woman being
> computer scientists, and other kinds of generalisations like this
> about the community as a whole
> * Whether the reaction of Rails core member is this or that, whether
> they should behave this or that way, whether the core are seen as
> representatives of the community even in non-technical stuff
> * ... surely there are people with emphasis on some other aspect of this issue
> In my opinion that results in a big mess, and a mess fragmented in
> tweets, blogs, private emails, etc. You can't have an ordered and
> rational discussion this way. It's a delicate topic, and there are
> many viewpoints involved.
> The Rails community is big, I'd love to see that this calms down and
> everyone goes back to the *work* we are doing together to build Rails.
> I'd love to have Mike back as well, I felt sad when I read his post,
> his work is so awesome, but of course I respect his decission.
In my opinion, this argument is losing focus on what matters most,
which is why we are here, and it responds with the single idea that we
are a group of people we are to learn and improve on the use of a tool
to work.
Presentations like these, just trying to bring a little humor out of
the daily structure, sometimes with success, sometimes with errors,
but never with bad intentions.
Most of you are losing sight of the technical part of what they want
to show the subject and focuses on the images used.
Thinking of discrimination by the use of certain images, I find it
irresponsible when you should talk more serious things such as
treatment programmers found in other distant countries, which can
generate very professional things but are affected by the distances of
thousands of miles, local economies, idioms problems, etc.
I believe that people's participation must be measured by their
contributions, their accomplishments, their dedication and not a
presentation that is interpreted out of context.
With these discussions, which only generate a future presentations
with images of lines of code only, not to touch wrong feelings.
Many of the negative reactions that are being discussed, considering
that arise at the time of being hired for a job, never going to watch
the sex of the employee, but will assess whether or not to do the job.
If a company is looking for someone who can do the job, not the sex of
the applicant, why should we discuss whether or not a presentation
discriminate? knowing that seeks not to discriminate.
Focus on the work in Rails do things better, not to fall into empty
discussions, and knowing that people can make mistakes, but mistakes
are not Intentionally.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Robert Dempsey <robertonra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not to get off topic, but for those of us that are coming to this late, is
> Matt's presentation online?
> Sincerely,
> Robert Dempsey, CEO
> Atlantic Dominion Solutions
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Obie Fernandez <obiefernan...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> As a prominent member of the Rails community and businessperson, I'm
>> very angry about the fact that this PR disaster has degenerated to the
>> point of members of this group publicly quitting and denouncing its
>> leadership.
>> So as to not complain without offering solutions, here is my list of
>> what I think should happen (for discussion):
>> 1) Matt should resign from the Rails activist group
>> 2) If Matt does not understand why what he did and subsequent
>> non-apology was wrong, then we should be kind enough to explain it to
>> him
>> 3) With all due respect to DHH and notwithstanding his desire for
>> Rails to remain "edgy" I think he should apologize for implicitly
>> endorsing Matt's behavior
>> Please do flame me, whatever... this needs to be discussed and acted
>> on before it continues to spiral out of control.
>> Obie Fernandez
>> CEO & Founder | Hashrocket
>> 904.435.1673 office
>> 404.934.9201 mobile
>> Hashrocket, Inc.
>> 320 N 1st Street
>> Suite 712
>> Jacksonville Beach, FL 32250
>> Hashrocket and nGen Works present...
>> BizConf is the premier conference for principals of custom web
>> development firms!
>> August 20-21, 2009 at the beautiful Ritz-Carlton Resort Amelia Island
>> in North Florida
>> http://bizconf.org
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Gray Herter <gray.her...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can someone forward me Matt's contact information? RubyNation has a
> couple of open speaker slots still. ;^)
> Gray Herter
> RubyNation
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Robert Dempsey <robertonra...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Not to get off topic, but for those of us that are coming to this late,
> is
> > Matt's presentation online?
> > Sincerely,
> > Robert Dempsey, CEO
> > Atlantic Dominion Solutions
> > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Obie Fernandez <obiefernan...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> >> As a prominent member of the Rails community and businessperson, I'm
> >> very angry about the fact that this PR disaster has degenerated to the
> >> point of members of this group publicly quitting and denouncing its
> >> leadership.
> >> So as to not complain without offering solutions, here is my list of
> >> what I think should happen (for discussion):
> >> 1) Matt should resign from the Rails activist group
> >> 2) If Matt does not understand why what he did and subsequent
> >> non-apology was wrong, then we should be kind enough to explain it to
> >> him
> >> 3) With all due respect to DHH and notwithstanding his desire for
> >> Rails to remain "edgy" I think he should apologize for implicitly
> >> endorsing Matt's behavior
> >> Please do flame me, whatever... this needs to be discussed and acted
> >> on before it continues to spiral out of control.
> >> Obie Fernandez
> >> CEO & Founder | Hashrocket
> >> 904.435.1673 office
> >> 404.934.9201 mobile
> >> Hashrocket, Inc.
> >> 320 N 1st Street
> >> Suite 712
> >> Jacksonville Beach, FL 32250
> >> Hashrocket and nGen Works present...
> >> BizConf is the premier conference for principals of custom web
> >> development firms!
> >> August 20-21, 2009 at the beautiful Ritz-Carlton Resort Amelia Island
> >> in North Florida
> >> http://bizconf.org
We did have a similar problem at last year's RubyNation. I think
every presenter had at least one supermodel photo (and Brad Pitt after
someone decided that the women should be included). We had a few
complaints in the evals, so our board voted to caution the speakers
not to get too carried away this year. We actually put it in our
acceptance letters to try make sure it doesn't get out of hand, like
it apparently did at Golden Gate. Our worry was that we don't want to
give what few women we had a reason to not feel welcomed, or sponsors
either. It is a balance, too keep things fun and informal (or edgy)
and yet not go over the line. If we had 50/50 men to women, I
wouldn't care, but with only 15% max women, I agree with those that
think it is more important to the community try hard not to offend
women (or any people).
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Matt Aimonetti <mattaimone...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gray, you can contact me via email/gtalk: mattaimone...@gmail.com
> - Matt
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Gray Herter <gray.her...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can someone forward me Matt's contact information? RubyNation has a
>> couple of open speaker slots still. ;^)
>> Gray Herter
>> RubyNation
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Robert Dempsey <robertonra...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Not to get off topic, but for those of us that are coming to this late,
>> > is
>> > Matt's presentation online?
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Robert Dempsey, CEO
>> > Atlantic Dominion Solutions
>> > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Obie Fernandez
>> > <obiefernan...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> As a prominent member of the Rails community and businessperson, I'm
>> >> very angry about the fact that this PR disaster has degenerated to the
>> >> point of members of this group publicly quitting and denouncing its
>> >> leadership.
>> >> So as to not complain without offering solutions, here is my list of
>> >> what I think should happen (for discussion):
>> >> 1) Matt should resign from the Rails activist group
>> >> 2) If Matt does not understand why what he did and subsequent
>> >> non-apology was wrong, then we should be kind enough to explain it to
>> >> him
>> >> 3) With all due respect to DHH and notwithstanding his desire for
>> >> Rails to remain "edgy" I think he should apologize for implicitly
>> >> endorsing Matt's behavior
>> >> Please do flame me, whatever... this needs to be discussed and acted
>> >> on before it continues to spiral out of control.
>> >> Obie Fernandez
>> >> CEO & Founder | Hashrocket
>> >> 904.435.1673 office
>> >> 404.934.9201 mobile
>> >> Hashrocket, Inc.
>> >> 320 N 1st Street
>> >> Suite 712
>> >> Jacksonville Beach, FL 32250
>> >> Hashrocket and nGen Works present...
>> >> BizConf is the premier conference for principals of custom web
>> >> development firms!
>> >> August 20-21, 2009 at the beautiful Ritz-Carlton Resort Amelia Island
>> >> in North Florida
>> >> http://bizconf.org
Someday soon this whole mess will become history. How the Rails community will be perceived in the future will have been decided, and this thread will be filed away.
For the sake of posterity then, I think pulling in some of the thoughtful discussion around this event would be valuable.
Not trying to stir the pot here. For those of you who are sick of this already, why haven't you created a rule to filter this thread out yet? I think this whole thing is a very valuable discussion, that this is the first big test of the Rails Activists team, and that it needs to run its course. How it ends will further define the character of our community.
"You cannot dream yourself into a character; you must hammer and forge yourself one." - James Froude
"All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy." - Scott Alexander
I'm new here, so I'll keep this brief and just repeat my comment from
Aaron Sumner's blog: <a href="http://www.aaronsumner.com/2009/05/one- nobodys-thoughts-on-the-gogaruco-mess/">One nobody’s thoughts on the
GoGaRuCo mess</a>
A lot of this reminds me of the movie “Pirates of Silicon Valley.”
I’m unsure how much of the scene is true, but there’s a point where
Steve Jobs figures out that some people aren’t going to listen to him,
so he cleans up. He shaves, he gets rid of his hole-filled jeans, then
he gets to work.
Some might say that’s selling out. Yet, decades later, he’s still the
same guy at his core. When Jobs introduces music-related product
announcements, you can tell he’s genuinely excited about music and
Apple’s contribution to it. Why else would Apple bring in great
performers for news conferences?
Rails is in its adolescence. There nothing wrong with attitude, but
when it gets in the way of your greater message, then perhaps it’s
time to rethink some things.
I hope Rails and its community does grow up a bit, yet retain a lot of
the attitude that I find attractive. Ultimately, you only get two
choices: grow up and learn from the past, or stay stuck living at home
with your parents.
Matt, while the presentation obviously didn't turn out the way you had
intended, I give you props for at least trying something different.
Everyone else: give the man a break. It was obviously an ill-advised
attempt at spicing up a potentially dry subject with a little bit of
over-the-top imagery. It doesn't make Matt an asshole or a misogynist.
He's made his apologies, and I think everyone should at least try to
take them at face value. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes once in
a while.
Jarin
On Apr 28, 4:01 pm, Rowan Malling <rowan.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Rails core team, activists, and community as a whole, don't have a
> contract with anyone. It's open source. Everyone can do/say/publish
> what they like. And that's great, that's gotten us this awesome
> framework, and this awesome community.
> As someone who is a big champion of Rails - and I think this is
> certainly echo'd in people that have to actively "sell in" Rails,
> *perception is reality* until you've demonstrated a working
> application. At that point results speak for themselves.
> However until you've gotten to the results part - What happens when a
> business stakeholder, at the sell-in stage, goes and Googles and finds
> these kinds of things ? They have no material bearing on whether Rails
> is productive or not, we all know this, it's irrelevant of course. But
> every little stumbling block that you get faced with is one you don't
> need some days.
> If you go to an R rated conference track and have an "edgy"
> presentation, all well and good, but as soon as it get's published
> hits Google, it's not R rated any longer, it's mainstream and fodder
> for the nay sayers. The movie analogy falls down there.
> So to the custodians, and by that I really mean people who are
> publicly visible (or intending on being publicly visible by doing
> something equally edgy), please take this as food for thought.
> I for one, want to see more Rails use in businesses grow. The more
> problems people tackle, solve, and share the more we all benefit.
> Cheers
> Rowan
> On Apr 28, 6:02 pm, DHH <david.heineme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Our biggest problem right now is not Matt's talk per se, not even
> > > porn, sexism etc. though these are serious issues too. The problem is
> > > that we can't treat the problem in a satisfactory way, or at least
> > > suggest a plan how might that happen.
> > I agree with that. Here's one proposal: Start rating your conference
> > or track according to the material. The movie standards of PG, M, and
> > R would do just fine. Then people can self-select on the type of
> > content that they're willing to hear.
> > I, for example, can just make sure that I only attend or speak at M
> > and R rated conferences and tracks. If you're offended by profanity,
> > for example, you'd be forewarned that sitting in on an M or R track
> > would be a bad idea.
> > That's how a movie theater manages to cater to all kinds of people
> > from all kinds of backgrounds. I think that fits well for this.
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Jarin Udom <jarin.u...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is my honest assessment of the situation:
> Lighten up, get over it, and move on.
> Matt, while the presentation obviously didn't turn out the way you had
> intended, I give you props for at least trying something different.
> Everyone else: give the man a break. It was obviously an ill-advised
> attempt at spicing up a potentially dry subject with a little bit of
> over-the-top imagery. It doesn't make Matt an asshole or a misogynist.
> He's made his apologies, and I think everyone should at least try to
> take them at face value. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes once in
> a while.
> Jarin
> On Apr 28, 4:01 pm, Rowan Malling <rowan.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Rails core team, activists, and community as a whole, don't have a
> > contract with anyone. It's open source. Everyone can do/say/publish
> > what they like. And that's great, that's gotten us this awesome
> > framework, and this awesome community.
> > As someone who is a big champion of Rails - and I think this is
> > certainly echo'd in people that have to actively "sell in" Rails,
> > *perception is reality* until you've demonstrated a working
> > application. At that point results speak for themselves.
> > However until you've gotten to the results part - What happens when a
> > business stakeholder, at the sell-in stage, goes and Googles and finds
> > these kinds of things ? They have no material bearing on whether Rails
> > is productive or not, we all know this, it's irrelevant of course. But
> > every little stumbling block that you get faced with is one you don't
> > need some days.
> > If you go to an R rated conference track and have an "edgy"
> > presentation, all well and good, but as soon as it get's published
> > hits Google, it's not R rated any longer, it's mainstream and fodder
> > for the nay sayers. The movie analogy falls down there.
> > So to the custodians, and by that I really mean people who are
> > publicly visible (or intending on being publicly visible by doing
> > something equally edgy), please take this as food for thought.
> > I for one, want to see more Rails use in businesses grow. The more
> > problems people tackle, solve, and share the more we all benefit.
> > Cheers
> > Rowan
> > On Apr 28, 6:02 pm, DHH <david.heineme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Our biggest problem right now is not Matt's talk per se, not even
> > > > porn, sexism etc. though these are serious issues too. The problem is
> > > > that we can't treat the problem in a satisfactory way, or at least
> > > > suggest a plan how might that happen.
> > > I agree with that. Here's one proposal: Start rating your conference
> > > or track according to the material. The movie standards of PG, M, and
> > > R would do just fine. Then people can self-select on the type of
> > > content that they're willing to hear.
> > > I, for example, can just make sure that I only attend or speak at M
> > > and R rated conferences and tracks. If you're offended by profanity,
> > > for example, you'd be forewarned that sitting in on an M or R track
> > > would be a bad idea.
> > > That's how a movie theater manages to cater to all kinds of people
> > > from all kinds of backgrounds. I think that fits well for this.
