Kids and Coding

[Matt Carlson]

Hi PyMNtos,

My name is Matt Carlson, and I've been lurking on your list for a couple of years now. I actually attended a meeting or two back around the time when I first joined the list, but then life got too busy to continue pursuing my coding hobby (although in my deepest procrastination moods, I still do some highly inefficient, but very fun Python coding).

I'm writing now because I remember some talk of trying to provide support for people (and maybe kids) who are just getting into programming. I work for an organization called Learning Dreams, which helps connects parents and children to opportunities for learning in their community. I've been working with one family from North Minneapolis for the past two years. Just today the oldest kid was talking about hacking his Xbox, which made me think first of why the lucky stiff's essay, The Little Coder's Predicament (a great essay if you haven't read it), then Python's now mostly forgotten (it seems) Computer Programming for Everybody project, and finally PyMNtos.

Of course, this kid---his name is Zeno--was mostly interested in modifying the game he's playing and doesn't really know what hacking or coding entails, but when I tried describing it to him, he seemed interested. There are lots of Scratch classes around, which I'll probably try to get him into this spring, and he (and his younger sister too) are also really interested in robotics.

So, I was wondering if anyone from PyMNtos has any suggestions for other resources or tips about getting young people into coding. And, beyond that, I wanted to ask if anyone from PyMNtos is interested in thinking about Python tutoring or some kind of introductory program again. All of the classes out there are great, but, as I'm sure you all know, being part of a strong community  provides a different kind of support. Learning Dreams regularly has community volunteers get involved (in fact, this is central to our work), so we could help coordinate, and we could probably find a few other kids who are interested in this too.

Please let me know if you have any ideas or questions.

Matt

P.S. And is anyone from PyMNtos interested in the Computer Programming for Everybody vision? I'd love to talk about that more sometime.

[Rohit Patnaik]

Hello Matt,

I know that the PyStar community has had some experience in making Python programming accessible to those who don't have a Computer Science or engineering background. PyStar itself is geared towards women, but maybe they'd be able to share some advice in how to get started with introducing programming to people who aren't programmers.

Thanks,

Rohit Patnaik

[Matt Carlson]

Rohit,

Thanks. This is great. I'll check it out.

I realized that I didn't include Zeno's age, which is probably important for getting advice on this--he is 12.

Matt

[Mark Holmquist]

> So, I was wondering if anyone from PyMNtos has any suggestions for other
> resources or tips about getting young people into coding. And, beyond
> that, I wanted to ask if anyone from PyMNtos is interested in thinking
> about Python tutoring or some kind of introductory program again. All of
> the classes out there are great, but, as I'm sure you all know, being
> part of a strong community provides a different kind of support.
> Learning Dreams regularly has community volunteers get involved (in
> fact, this is central to our work), so we could help coordinate, and we
> could probably find a few other kids who are interested in this too.

I think, from my experience when I was younger, the single greatest
resource for a kid would be a person to whom they could go, upon whom
they could rely to explain concepts they need to understand.

I'm very happy to act as such a resource. I'd also be happy to provide
examples of Python software or games that are anxious and welcoming to
new coders, along with suggestions of low-hanging fruit to try and work on!

I'd probably not be able to run the CPfE project on my own, being pretty
consumed with other projects, but I'd be happy to at least help out
anyone who needs some help getting into Python, or any programming
language for that matter.

Cheers,

--
Mark Holmquist
Student, Computer Science
University of Redlands
mtra...@member.fsf.org

[Rohit Patnaik]

I should add that a fair number of PyMNTos members are also involved in PyStar. If you're able to come to the meeting on Thursday, you might be able to ask people in person.

Thanks,
Rohit Patnaik

[Jason Hsu]

I first learned to code in the 1980s by copying games programs out of
books. Unfortunately, all I knew was BASIC, and I had to unlearn
BASIC in order to learn Mathematica and C when I went to college. I
felt disoriented without line numbers and goto. It also didn't help
that my CS professors and TAs were as incoherent as the Osbournes.
Fortunately, my major was EE, not CS.

As for what languages kids should start with, I think Python is
great. It's fairly powerful and open source.

I'd also recommend Lisp even though I haven't gotten around to
learning it. Lisp is considered to be the most powerful language of
all. The story of Paul Graham's success using Lisp at Viaweb as a
secret weapon to corner the market is very compelling.

Learning Java should be a lower priority. The code is ugly, and it's
much less powerful than Python.

Visual Basic and .NET should be the lowest priorities because they're
proprietary and the least powerful.

[Isaac Raway]

I would recommend starting him off with something a lot simpler than
Python such as Liberty Basic: http://www.libertybasic.com/

Don't believe what people say about Basic being bad for you - it teaches
you important concepts of imperative programming - which is the reality
of the state of the art for the vast majority of programmers, and which
is much easier to understand than alternatives - and you can make real
and useful software with it (depending on the vendor).

I would have died for something like Liberty Basic when I was a kid. It
has GUI support, turtle graphics, as well as console programming. It
also comes with a tutorial (Help > Liberty Basic Tutorial) which is
basically a entry level programming introduction course. Pretty good
stuff, actually. The software is a bit weird but it's inexpensive and I
think effective.

It also seems to run fine in Wine (via Wine Skin -
http://wineskin.doh123.com/) on Mac OS:
https://skitch.com/blueapples/g9i2s/turtle-graphics

Anyway, something to think about. A lot of us started with some
variation of Basic and I think the same approach would work well for
kids now.

IJR

[Sunny]

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Matt Carlson <mcar...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> So, I was wondering if anyone from PyMNtos has any suggestions for other
> resources or tips about getting young people into coding. And, beyond that,
> I wanted to ask if anyone from PyMNtos is interested in thinking about
> Python tutoring or some kind of introductory program again. All of the
> classes out there are great, but, as I'm sure you all know, being part of a
> strong community  provides a different kind of support. Learning Dreams
> regularly has community volunteers get involved (in fact, this is central to
> our work), so we could help coordinate, and we could probably find a few
> other kids who are interested in this too.
>

I have found that the "Hello World " book is quite good
(http://www.manning.com/sande/). It targets a little bid younger
audience, but I find it very very well written to the point that bot
my kids (5 and 12 yrs) are equally enjoying it. And its Python :)

I'll be happy to donate a copy if you think there's potential to hook
that kid into programming.

Cheers

--
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

[Tonu Mikk]

I think the challenge of learning to program has to do with how abstract programming is.  Anything that can bring the abstract concepts closer to the physical world would help build the bridge.  To that end here are some additional ideas... 

1. Lego Mindstorms is a robot that you can program to do lots of stuff http://shop.lego.com/en-US/LEGO-MINDSTORMS-NXT-2-0-8547.  The programming environment is easy to use yet very powerful.  It allows controlling the motors and sensors on the robot.   Many kids get exposed to the robot and programming through the First Lego League competitions.  The Minnesota organization that organizes the FLL competitions is HighTechKids.  Any school can start a team.  It just takes and adult or two to organize and coach it.  The FLL concept is great because it allows kids to work in teams and learn from each other, there are many other kids working on the same challenges and there is a mentor whom they can turn to when they need assistance.
2. To get started right away with learning programming concepts would be RUR-PLE - a simplified environment for having a turtle perform various tasks on a drawing.  I believe there are several other turtle named Python games/environments out there besides this one, but I found RUR-PLE to be a complete, step-by-step tutorial for learning the basic building blocks of programming. 
3. For a younger age (6-10) there is GCompris game suite that includes a game with sailboats where you race a sailboat with someone by directing it based on the wind direction and wind speed. GCompris is included in the Edubuntu release of Linux.

I should also mention that I have not conquered programming despite several attempts.  I am currently using the "Learn Python the Hard Way" and I feel hopelessly stuck :-) .  Having someone more experienced and good at mentoring to help kids through rough spots is a great addition to any available game or environment available.  

Tonu

---

From: Matt Carlson <mcar...@gmail.com>
To: pym...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 10:21 PM
Subject: [PyMNtos] Kids and Coding

[Kelly Black]

Hi Matt,

I have started with this book with my son (9).  He has periods of interest and has gotten part way through the first chapter:

http://inventwithpython.com/

I am not pushing it, and he occasionally wants to learn, but it might be a bit much at his age.  I did get the dead tree format, so it will be there when he is ready.  I think I did not get to serious before age 10 or 12 or so (or when the Montgomery Wards had the Timex Sinclair TS-1000 on sale for $35 or so).

The book seems pretty good so far.  His interest is in game programming, so it might not work for your friend.  I figure once he is part way in to it, I will have him download a more complex game from pygame.org and change elements of it to see how the "watch" is put together if you will.

Thanks,
Kelly Black

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Matt Carlson <mcar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nick Bauman]

This might be relevant, too:

http://www.cirrusmachina.com/blog/comment/the-importance-of-programming-literacy/

Transcription of Robert M. Lefkowitz's keynote at PyCon 2007 on this
topic: teaching kids programming and how it relates to education in
general and how it re states a question posed 2400 years ago.

[Ian Bicking]

Not related to Python, but related to hacking: http://hackasaurus.org

It starts more from the structure of content than the structure of code, specifically the structure of web pages.  It's something I'd be interested in helping out with, or trying to do with some help, depending on the structure ;)

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Matt Carlson <mcar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Matt Carlson]

Thank you, everyone, for all the suggestions. I can definitely find something among all these resources to get Zeno started. I wish I could have made it to the meeting this past Thursday to talk with you all in person, but that didn't work out. I'll try to make it next month.

Mark, this is a very generous offer, and I think it would be a great for Zeno. I'll be in touch.

Matt

[Matt Carlson]

Hi Sunny,

I looked through the sample chapters of the book you suggested, and, especially with your (and your kids') recommendation, it seems like a great place to start. The fact that you'd be willing to donate a copy is even more convincing. Thank you.

As I described in my first email, I only just made the connection that Zeno might like programming. He was talking about hacking in a very general way--wanting to modify the video game he was playing--and when I explained (again, in a very general way) how he might do that, he seemed interested. At this point, however, he probably has very little idea of what programming actually is.

His other interests would suggest that he could easily get into programming though. He's interested in robots, and I think he's had a little experience with some basics through a Science Museum camp. He's interested in engineering and building things more generally. For example, he has notebooks full of schematic sketches of spaceships he wants to build.

So, yes, there's definitely potential to hook Zeno into programming. A book like this would be a good first step and would get him started right away. 

Learning Dreams, the organization I work for, depends on these kinds of generous donations. Thank you again for the offer. Let me know how you'd like to work the logistics. I'd be happy to come pick it up from you if that makes things easier.

Matt

[Sunny]

Hi Matt,
please reach me off-list with the delivery address and I'll oder the book.

Cheers,
Sunny

[Tonu Mikk]

This post on GitHub pricked my ears and seemed relevant:  https://github.com/blog/1034-kids-are-the-future-teach-em-to-code .  Perhaps there will be enough interest in the future to start a CoderDojo here in the Twin Cities.

 

Tonu

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From: Matt Carlson <mcar...@gmail.com>
To: pym...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [PyMNtos] Kids and Coding