On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Chris Brody <chris.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The negotiated takeover of pyjs.org looks fine, please can we give
> credit to Luke l...@lkcl.net for ownership of the Pyjamas name?
I think you've hit the nail on the head here.
If Luke et al. want to continue running the project there is nothing
stopping them from doing so under the Pyjamas name.
The "fork" that Anthony has created will be called pyjs to match the
domain name (which Luke didn't own anyways).
Anthony did not take anything from Luke.
Further more, the reason I think it's a bad idea to have this drawn
out discussion is that pretty much the main reason for this fork is
because of Luke leadership and project management decisions and
actions. To have discussions of why the fork was done would invariably
lead to quite a bit of personal attacks and petty arguments.
Each one of us either accepts how the project has been run under Luke
or we don't.
Those that want Luke as their leader can carry on under Pyjamas name
and those that want a fresh start and for something different can
continue with Pyjs.
Luke still has his server, nothing is stopping him from actually
registering his own domain name this time and restarting the website
and gitolite. And business as usual.
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Lex Berezhny <eukre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Chris Brody <chris.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The negotiated takeover of pyjs.org looks fine, please can we give
>> credit to Luke l...@lkcl.net for ownership of the Pyjamas name?
> I think you've hit the nail on the head here.
> If Luke et al. want to continue running the project there is nothing
> stopping them from doing so under the Pyjamas name.
> The "fork" that Anthony has created will be called pyjs to match the
> domain name (which Luke didn't own anyways).
> Anthony did not take anything from Luke.
> Further more, the reason I think it's a bad idea to have this drawn
> out discussion is that pretty much the main reason for this fork is
> because of Luke leadership and project management decisions and
> actions. To have discussions of why the fork was done would invariably
> lead to quite a bit of personal attacks and petty arguments.
> Each one of us either accepts how the project has been run under Luke
> or we don't.
> Those that want Luke as their leader can carry on under Pyjamas name
> and those that want a fresh start and for something different can
> continue with Pyjs.
> Luke still has his server, nothing is stopping him from actually
> registering his own domain name this time and restarting the website
> and gitolite. And business as usual.
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Lex Berezhny <eukre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> Anthony did not take anything from Luke.
> Further more, the reason I think it's a bad idea to have this drawn
> out discussion is that pretty much the main reason for this fork is
> because of Luke leadership and project management decisions and
> actions. To have discussions of why the fork was done would invariably
> lead to quite a bit of personal attacks and petty arguments.
> ...
I agree, Lex - this is all about moving on. This is a software
project, not a cult of personality. There are excellent software
developers and excellent project administrators, a viable community
will welcome the best talents to serve it in the capacities that suit
them best.
I'm looking forward to pyjs becoming a main-stream open source
project. I'm looking forward to seeing participation by, and
collaboration with, major players in the python community and beyond.
I'm looking forward to talking about pyjs at open source gatherings
without hearing, "It's a cool project, but..."
I'm also looking forward to using pyjs apps for projects that need to
be maintained over years. It has been hard to sell it for anything but
one-off "throw-away" apps. My big customers want to see technologies
with depth of support.
My only quibble is with the term "fork." A fork is created when you
disagree with the technical direction of a project. That's not the
issue here. This is a reassignment of the project administration only
- a shuffling of responsibility among *current leaders* of the
community. There is no "divine right of kings" here.
I really don't like the way this happened. It would have been better
to resolve the issues through discussion and consensus. Those who read
this list carefully know that there have been many efforts, within the
community, to move forward via discussion. I do not see this
"takeover," now, as any worse than the suppression and rejection of
those discussions in the past.
Some will be leaving the project because of these changes. Others,
including myself, will be rejoining the project because of them.
Cool, so we all come together with the new pyjs.org, it is a
much-improved packaging of something called "Pyjamas". I suspect Luke
will be busy with other projects and not do much more for
Pyjamas/pyjs, Luke correct me if you see this and I am wrong.
To take this to the next level is to submit Pyjamas to the Apache
foundation. I believe it would not be an easy process and they may
require a new name but it would bring this work to a higher level of
corporate visibility and support.
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Jeff Kunce <jjku...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Lex Berezhny <eukre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> Anthony did not take anything from Luke.
>> Further more, the reason I think it's a bad idea to have this drawn
>> out discussion is that pretty much the main reason for this fork is
>> because of Luke leadership and project management decisions and
>> actions. To have discussions of why the fork was done would invariably
>> lead to quite a bit of personal attacks and petty arguments.
>> ...
> I agree, Lex - this is all about moving on. This is a software
> project, not a cult of personality. There are excellent software
> developers and excellent project administrators, a viable community
> will welcome the best talents to serve it in the capacities that suit
> them best.
> I'm looking forward to pyjs becoming a main-stream open source
> project. I'm looking forward to seeing participation by, and
> collaboration with, major players in the python community and beyond.
> I'm looking forward to talking about pyjs at open source gatherings
> without hearing, "It's a cool project, but..."
> I'm also looking forward to using pyjs apps for projects that need to
> be maintained over years. It has been hard to sell it for anything but
> one-off "throw-away" apps. My big customers want to see technologies
> with depth of support.
> My only quibble is with the term "fork." A fork is created when you
> disagree with the technical direction of a project. That's not the
> issue here. This is a reassignment of the project administration only
> - a shuffling of responsibility among *current leaders* of the
> community. There is no "divine right of kings" here.
> I really don't like the way this happened. It would have been better
> to resolve the issues through discussion and consensus. Those who read
> this list carefully know that there have been many efforts, within the
> community, to move forward via discussion. I do not see this
> "takeover," now, as any worse than the suppression and rejection of
> those discussions in the past.
> Some will be leaving the project because of these changes. Others,
> including myself, will be rejoining the project because of them.
Anthony didn't emphasize this in the announcement but the name Pyjamas
will not be used by the new site/project/management. It is just
pyjs.org or pyjs now.
This provides the following benefits (some of these are just my opinion):
* Having the project name and domain name the same makes it easier to
find and remember.
* Conversely, having what is essentially two names for the same
project as has been the case is confusing and redundant.
* Pyjamas is cute but not professional at all and I have personally
experienced awkward situations in a corporate setting because of the
name (confusion, jokes, etc). If the whole world was developers than
maybe the name would be fine, but non-programmers who may or may not
have a sense of humor have found it silly and childish.
* Pyjs is less typing.
* We already have the domain name.
* This way Luke can continue the project under Pyjamas banner if he chooses.
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Chris Brody <chris.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Cool, so we all come together with the new pyjs.org, it is a
> much-improved packaging of something called "Pyjamas". I suspect Luke
> will be busy with other projects and not do much more for
> Pyjamas/pyjs, Luke correct me if you see this and I am wrong.
> To take this to the next level is to submit Pyjamas to the Apache
> foundation. I believe it would not be an easy process and they may
> require a new name but it would bring this work to a higher level of
> corporate visibility and support.
> Chris
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Jeff Kunce <jjku...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Lex Berezhny <eukre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Anthony did not take anything from Luke.
>>> Further more, the reason I think it's a bad idea to have this drawn
>>> out discussion is that pretty much the main reason for this fork is
>>> because of Luke leadership and project management decisions and
>>> actions. To have discussions of why the fork was done would invariably
>>> lead to quite a bit of personal attacks and petty arguments.
>>> ...
>> I agree, Lex - this is all about moving on. This is a software
>> project, not a cult of personality. There are excellent software
>> developers and excellent project administrators, a viable community
>> will welcome the best talents to serve it in the capacities that suit
>> them best.
>> I'm looking forward to pyjs becoming a main-stream open source
>> project. I'm looking forward to seeing participation by, and
>> collaboration with, major players in the python community and beyond.
>> I'm looking forward to talking about pyjs at open source gatherings
>> without hearing, "It's a cool project, but..."
>> I'm also looking forward to using pyjs apps for projects that need to
>> be maintained over years. It has been hard to sell it for anything but
>> one-off "throw-away" apps. My big customers want to see technologies
>> with depth of support.
>> My only quibble is with the term "fork." A fork is created when you
>> disagree with the technical direction of a project. That's not the
>> issue here. This is a reassignment of the project administration only
>> - a shuffling of responsibility among *current leaders* of the
>> community. There is no "divine right of kings" here.
>> I really don't like the way this happened. It would have been better
>> to resolve the issues through discussion and consensus. Those who read
>> this list carefully know that there have been many efforts, within the
>> community, to move forward via discussion. I do not see this
>> "takeover," now, as any worse than the suppression and rejection of
>> those discussions in the past.
>> Some will be leaving the project because of these changes. Others,
>> including myself, will be rejoining the project because of them.
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Lex Berezhny <eukre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Chris Brody <chris.br...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> The negotiated takeover of pyjs.org looks fine, please can we give
> >> credit to Luke l...@lkcl.net for ownership of the Pyjamas name?
> > I think you've hit the nail on the head here.
> > If Luke et al. want to continue running the project there is nothing
> > stopping them from doing so under the Pyjamas name.
> > The "fork" that Anthony has created will be called pyjs to match the
> > domain name (which Luke didn't own anyways).
> > Anthony did not take anything from Luke.
> > Further more, the reason I think it's a bad idea to have this drawn
> > out discussion is that pretty much the main reason for this fork is
> > because of Luke leadership and project management decisions and
> > actions. To have discussions of why the fork was done would invariably
> > lead to quite a bit of personal attacks and petty arguments.
> > Each one of us either accepts how the project has been run under Luke
> > or we don't.
> > Those that want Luke as their leader can carry on under Pyjamas name
> > and those that want a fresh start and for something different can
> > continue with Pyjs.
> > Luke still has his server, nothing is stopping him from actually
> > registering his own domain name this time and restarting the website
> > and gitolite. And business as usual.
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Lex Berezhny <eukre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anthony didn't emphasize this in the announcement but the name Pyjamas
> will not be used by the new site/project/management. It is just
> pyjs.org or pyjs now.
Can we please change the mail list address from pyjamas...@pyjs.org?
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Chris Brody <chris.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Lex Berezhny <eukre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Anthony didn't emphasize this in the announcement but the name Pyjamas
> > will not be used by the new site/project/management. It is just
> > pyjs.org or pyjs now.
> Can we please change the mail list address from pyjamas...@pyjs.org?
