Re: Digest for publiclaboratory@googlegroups.com - 6 Messages in 2 Topics
Scott Eustis
I don't have experience building a probe, but i have a lot of
experience using hydrolab and YSI devices in ways that are not
effective.
We have a need to monitor oxygen demand independently of the paper
mills, who monitor their own waste for DEQ in DMRs. DEQ has little to
no response capacity, so it's these recurrent industrial catastrophes
are when we need to monitor the river, and able to do it quickly. it
would be appropriate to drop sensors with loggers, rather than boat
around spot checking with handhelds, which is cheaper from an
equipment point of view but bleeds away gas and limited staff time.
an oxygen sensor is calibrated based on temp and conductivity; and
conductivity gives you one way of measuring salinity
so, commonly, handheld field probes (like YSI 85) have temp, salinity,
conductivity, and oxygen. YSI 85 is a standard scientific probe for
fisheries work.
These are also common pollutants of concern. ranked by priority::
nitrate / ammonia
enterococcus / e coli
PAHs and phenols from oil waste and paper mill effluent (also strange
organic chemicals like Sylvic acid)
Mg, Ar, Cu, Pb, other metals
Salt ::brine from old drilling muds from re-mobilized oil waste pits
I'm glad you're focusing on an oxygen sensor. Whether we're fighting
faulty water treatment or monitoring paper mill effluent, oxygen is
often something we, as watchdogs, want to measure. unfortunately it's
very variable, and we often are not in the right place at the correct
time.
often we can't measure or can't make sense of spot measurements. DEQ
can't, either. many person hours and fuel were burned in monitoring
oxygen on the river in response to recent fish kill in Bogalusa, for
example, because the agency uses a handheld probe and runs up and down
the river in a boat taking readings.
example reports (without time of day) are here.
http://www.deq.louisiana.gov/portal/DIVISIONS/Inspection/PearlRiverFishKill.aspx
But what we really want to get is repeated measures of early-morning
DO at depth over a series of days. knowing the daily variation is
also useful. DEQ does not wake up early, and neither do we, honestly.
a logger would be best, a cheap logger would be excellent.
fisheries research depends on repeated spot measurements over years to
get a picture of the oxygen conditions on the river.
the agency also does not take readings at high water, due to safety
precautions. and yet, there are a certain types of toxins (like
sylvic acid from paper mills) that are activated only during high
water that mobilizes bottom sediments. so if something nasty in
sediments gets re-mobilized from the river bed during high water, we
don't see it or any local effects.
there are similar problems downstream of watertreatment ponds; the
problems are more chronic--as the ponds age, they fill and become
useless. but our sampling challenges are similar.
A non-profit that would want to collect data would need to do so with
less money and staff. rather than running two boat trips on 40 river
miles a day for 6 locations ("stations"), it would be cheaper to drop
six probes in place for a couple of days at a time, and just data
collection / battery recharge boat runs on volunteer time. from
experience with stream loggers in Georgia, i wouldn't want to leave
probes out for long periods. probes are tampered with or are more
likely to be displaced by multiple high water events. so the time
period is similar to a fishing rig. also, probes that sit for a while
get gunked up, this is the problem with the water quality stations in
city park. algae.
it would be excellent to have droppable oxygen probes, weighted to the
bottom of the river, buoyed for placement in the water column, but
secured to the bank by a second line. attached is a dream diagram.
the bottom probe is priority; having multiple drop stations makes the
equipment cost ring up quickly, one bottom probe is enough, really.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eustatic/6997266907/in/photostream
deployment is crucial in these crises, where it takes DEQ weeks to
respond to a problem. But we could also use a similar protocol to get
a weekly profile during "typical" seasons / high water periods, to
establish a record of what the river should be, so we can track long
term changes.
problem: stable oxygen probes require water agitators, like the one
on the hydrolab multi-probe. If the current is quick enough (1 foot
per sec), it ceases to be a problem, but periods of slack water are
the times when oxygen will be low, which is the event we want to
capture and know the frequency of.
another problem would be calibrating the probes, which would eat up a
lot of time before deployment, compared to handhelds. still, it seems
worth it, given the time saved not running up and down the river over
days.
Again, i don't know if this is the information you were looking for;
It applies to the electric/ membrane style of oxygen sensor that i am
familiar with, and is relevant to common dilemmas I face as part of
community-based organizations trying to learn about our rivers,
protect and improve them.
proprietary equipment i have used (besides YSI)
Hydrolab multi-probe Sondes
http://www.hachhydromet.com/web/ott_hach.nsf/id/pa_ds5x-multiparameter-sonde.html
neat optical data transfer units
http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/u22-001
cheap underwater sensors
http://www.onsetcomp.com/products/data-loggers/ua-002-08?multi=1&id=0
On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:04 AM, <publicla...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> Today's Topic Summary
>
> Group: http://groups.google.com/group/publiclaboratory/topics
>
> Unsubscribing from the Public Lab List, Re: REMOVE ME [1 Update]
> anyone experienced with water testing? [5 Updates]
>
> Unsubscribing from the Public Lab List, Re: REMOVE ME
>
> Mathew Lippincott <mat...@publiclaboratory.org> Mar 19 08:49AM -0700
>
> Dear Public Lab Haters,
> Please manage your own Google Group settings, we can't do it for you. if
> you don't want to be on a list YOU JOINED, unsubscribe here and stop
> raining on our fun.
> http://groups.google.com/group/publiclaboratory/subscribe
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> --
> Mathew Lippincott
> Director of Production
> publiclaboratory.org
> 503 852 1669
>
>
>
> anyone experienced with water testing?
>
> Liz Barry <eba...@gmail.com> Mar 18 11:26PM -0400
>
> Hi all,
> we're getting ready for the Water
> Hackathon<http://publiclaboratory.org/wiki/water-hackathon>here in
> NYC, and I'm wondering if anyone on this list has measured or
> created tools to measure dissolved oxygen, oxydation reduction potential,
> pH, electrical conductivity, or other aspect of water other than thermal?
>
> There's a high quality, "expensive but worth it" DIY kit created by some
> local developers (who hopefully will be giving an ignite talk Friday night)
> that a few of us are thinking of going in together :
>
> http://atlas-scientific.com/product_pages/kits/sds-kit.html
>
> does anyone have experience with this?
> Thanks!
>
> --
> @lizbarry <http://twitter.com/lizbarry>
>
>
>
> Miles Fidelman <mfid...@meetinghouse.net> Mar 18 11:59PM -0400
>
> Liz Barry wrote:
>> I'm wondering if anyone on this list has measured or created tools to
>> measure dissolved oxygen, oxydation reduction potential, pH,
>> electrical conductivity, or other aspect of water other than thermal?
>
> Just a suggestion: get in touch with the testing department of a local
> water department - those are the folks who do this stuff on a day-in and
> day-out basis. (You might try the Cambridge, MA water dept. I took a
> tour of their testing shop about 6 months back - very good people, and
> they test for everything. Sorry, but I can't come up with any names,
> but you could start here: http://www2.cambridgema.gov/CWD/)
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
>
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
>
>
>
> "Bob & Brenda Sass" <bsa...@garlic.com> Mar 18 09:50PM -0700
>
>
>
> kingjacob <king...@gmail.com> Mar 19 09:43AM -0500
>
> If you're wanting to go full DIY, the bioboard may fit your needs.
> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/BioBoard
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Jacob Shiach
> editor-in-chief: Citizen Science
> Quarterly<http://citizensciencequarterly.com/>
> founder: Brightwork CoResearch <http://BrightworkCoResearch.com>
> twitter: @jacobshiach <http://twitter.com/#!/jacobshiach>
>
>
>
> kimgor...@gmail.com Mar 19 02:41PM
>
> STOP
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kingjacob <king...@gmail.com>
> Sender: publicla...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:43:24
> To: <publicla...@googlegroups.com>
> Reply-To: publicla...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: anyone experienced with water testing?
>
> If you're wanting to go full DIY, the bioboard may fit your needs.
> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/BioBoard
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Jacob Shiach
> editor-in-chief: Citizen Science
> Quarterly<http://citizensciencequarterly.com/>
> founder: Brightwork CoResearch <http://BrightworkCoResearch.com>
> twitter: @jacobshiach <http://twitter.com/#!/jacobshiach>
>
>
>
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Scott Eustis
504 237 0323
504 484 9599
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Jeffrey Warren
Also your "dream diagram" is super -- very specific. We need more people drawing dream diagrams :-)
I'm happy to help you craft this into a research note on the website -- it'd be nice to formalize it a bit more as a needs description.
Jeff
scott eustatic
re: price --yes, that is a primary problem. Agencies and
organizations normally fear deploying expensive equipment and losing
it--hence the massive staff time and gas burned to run up and down the
river collecting non-synchronous point samples (with or without
replicates).
Perhaps then, another method of deployment for this kind of sensor is
via fishers who are laying jug and trot trot lines anyway. that way,
the probe is being watched, along with all the fisher's other rigs.
An additional, slack "safety" line could also be attached to the
probe...
That also reminds me--the YSI guys are engineering a "fishing" probe
that can be deployed via casting.
alright, i'll try to figure out this research note thing on the
website.
Question:
In regards to price, I see these PulseOx doodads at the drugstore for
$30
http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/walgreens-pulse-fingertip-oximeter-c20---measures-oxygen-level-%26-pulse-rate/ID=prod6089451-product
which has got to be some kind of laser sensor rather than the
chemielectric sensor on the YSIs. And much cheaper. Does anyone know
if this sensing tech is transferable to the environmental context?
scott
> > > Liz Barry wrote:
> > >> I'm wondering if anyone on this list has measured or created tools to
> > >> measure dissolved oxygen, oxydation reduction potential, pH,
> > >> electrical conductivity, or other aspect of water other than thermal?
>
> > > Just a suggestion: get in touch with the testing department of a local
> > > water department - those are the folks who do this stuff on a day-in and
> > > day-out basis. (You might try the Cambridge, MA water dept. I took a
> > > tour of their testing shop about 6 months back - very good people, and
> > > they test for everything. Sorry, but I can't come up with any names,
> > > but you could start here:http://www2.cambridgema.gov/CWD/)
>
> > > Miles Fidelman
>
> > > --
> > > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> > > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
>
> > > "Bob & Brenda Sass" <bsa...@garlic.com> Mar 18 09:50PM -0700
>
> > > If you're wanting to go full DIY, the bioboard may fit your needs.
> > >https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/BioBoard
>
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > > Jacob Shiach
> > > editor-in-chief: Citizen Science
> > > Quarterly<http://citizensciencequarterly.com/>
> > > founder: Brightwork CoResearch <http://BrightworkCoResearch.com>
> > > twitter: @jacobshiach <http://twitter.com/#!/jacobshiach>
>
> > > STOP
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: kingjacob <kingja...@gmail.com>
> > > Sender: publicla...@googlegroups.com
> > > Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:43:24
> > > To: <publicla...@googlegroups.com>
> > > Reply-To: publicla...@googlegroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: anyone experienced with water testing?
>
> > > If you're wanting to go full DIY, the bioboard may fit your needs.
> > >https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/BioBoard
>
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > > Jacob Shiach
> > > editor-in-chief: Citizen Science
>
>
> read more »
Jeffrey Warren
Hey Scott, I'm on break this week but couldn't help get excited about the wallgreens sensor. I'm always curious about how those things work; there are blood sugar monitors too, and seems like lots of opportunities for DIY adaptation.
My partner Nadya says it monitors specific colors of light which are shone through the finger, which means essentially its a simple absorption spectrometer. We should buy one and take it apart, but I worry that it would really only be calibrated for measuring blood, since blood turns brighter red with oxygen.
Jeff