Interstate highways being pulled down

[Salil Bijur]

Interesting article about highways passing through dense cities now being pulled down for increased livability: https://medium.com/money-banking/68648bc111ae

[ashok datar]

a must read for all planners and city managers for Mumbai /Pune

How can we take to the Chief Minister ( and help him read it ?")

 
American cities find it better to knock down intra city highways in 2013 . what do we think and do ?

pl read this very powerful, clear, simple and explicit argument stating that no intra city highways are good

thank u very much salil bijur

this is a great eye opener

should be read by Prithviraj Chavan who believes that Mumbai will benefit by eastern freeway, western freeway and coastal road

while even the good old americans are getting wise to the fact there should be no intra city highways and they should be knocked down , here we are busy focussing only on such highways as "solution " to traffic problems.

This is a must read for all traffic planners for metros

ashok datar

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Salil Bijur <sal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting article about highways passing through dense cities now being pulled down for increased livability: https://medium.com/money-banking/68648bc111ae

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PTTF" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pttfgen+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ptt...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pttfgen.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--

Ashok R. Datar

Mumbai Environmental Social Network (MESN) &
 Mumbai Transport Forum (MTF)

20 Madhavi, Makarand Society, S.V.S.Marg, Mahim-400 016
98676 65107/0222 444 9212 see our website : www.mesn.org

A city is developed not when poor ride or aspire for cars, but where the rich use public transport

[Jayant Joshi]

It is easy to wake up someone who is asleep, but very hard to wake up someone who is pretending to be asleep :-(

[Sujit Patwardhan]

20 June 2013

Thanks Salil,

Unfortunately people who don't want to get out of their old Traffic concepts will say -

"This is OK for cities in the US that have already constructed adequate traffic infrastructure, but for cities in India that severely lack roads, bridges and flyovers, we have no choice but to build more flyovers - because without the ones already built can you imagine how much greater would have been the congestion?"

They obviously don't learn (or want to understand)  the right lessons that - the more you provide the more will be users for that mode. 

As a corollary, if you starve spaces for automobiles and give preferential treatment to Public Transport, Cycling and Walking, many more persons will choose PT, Cycling and Walking depending on the specific trips intended.

But more such examples need to be given to decision makers, planners and city bosses with the hope that one day not too distant in the future they will be forced to accept that the old paradigm no longer holds.

Thanks again for posting.

--

Sujit

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Salil Bijur <sal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting article about highways passing through dense cities now being pulled down for increased livability: https://medium.com/money-banking/68648bc111ae

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PTTF" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pttfgen+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ptt...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pttfgen.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

- J. Krishnamurti

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sujit Patwardhan
patwardh...@gmail.com
su...@parisar.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yamuna, ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007, India
Tel: +91 20 25537955
Cell: +91 98220 26627
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: http://motif.posterous.com/

Parisar: www.parisar.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[SVK]

How does removing Highway from Pune work? What do we mean by saying Highway removed from City?

For e.g. we have NH4 passing through Pune city. It carries lot of traffic connecting Mumbai and Southern cities like Bangalore, etc. When we say Highway is removed, how does traffic react? Many travelers who know road exists between Mumbai and Bangalore passing through Pune would still continue to travel on that road.

Or is it like whole road vanishes?

[Jayant Joshi]

Traffic tends to take the fastest route available. After the westerly bypass came up, most of the vehicles coming from Mumbai and going towards Bangalore chose to take that route without having to be told. Same will happen when any of the flyovers is taken down. Some trips will totally vanish too, as it will be too much of a pain to go to a farther destination. 

As a corollary, when a faster route becomes available, it attracts traffic - and thus defeats the very purpose for which that faster route was built :-(

--

[Harshad Abhyankar]

SVK,

This needs to be interpreted in the right context.  What is an "interstate highway within a city" for US is a "flyover" for us in India.  We are essentially talking about a structure or construction that is built with the primary objective of helping the motorist jump over the congestion.

Nobody is saying "remove highways that join cities".  All that they are saying is, if you build more and more to make motoring easy, more and more people will use motors - and you can never satisfy all motoring needs.  Instead they are recommending that the same urban space be used for making city life better for people.

Salil,

Thanks for this wonderful link.  It is especially important that this article comes from US!  We can therefore assume that these solutions are suggested by trained and experienced city/ transportation planners and are not merely suggested by some "NGOs who claim to know it all!"

regards,
- Harshad.

PS: And let me take this opportunity to once again state that I am not against "flyovers" per se.  Just explain how a certain flyover will make life better for pedestrians, public transport and cyclists, and I will support it.

- Harshad.

---

From: SVK <svkonl...@gmail.com>
To: ptt...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2013 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [pttfgen:4640] Interstate highways being pulled down

How does removing Highway from Pune work? What do we mean by saying Highway removed from City?

For e.g. we have NH4 passing through Pune city. It carries lot of traffic connecting Mumbai and Southern cities like Bangalore, etc. When we say Highway is removed, how does traffic react? Many travelers who know road exists between Mumbai and Bangalore passing through Pune would still continue to travel on that road.

Or is it like whole road vanishes?

[Sujit Patwardhan]

The article mainly refers to the elevated roads cutting up the city. Equivalent to that are our Flyovers. Both attempt to do the same thing - provide facility for the automobile to jump over the congested roads. In reality if there is substantial latent demand for auto use these measures don't work because as more and more autos come on to the flyovers (hoping to beat congestion) the flyovers themselves start getting congested (as is happening in our cities).

The lesson to be learnt - instead of trying to provide more and more road space for auto vehicles invest into and improve Pubic Transport and NMT facilities.

--

Sujit

--

Sujit

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 1:33 PM, SVK <svkonl...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "PTTF" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pttfgen+u...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ptt...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pttfgen.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Aneeta Benninger]

Thank you very much. 

Regards

Aneeta

Aneeta Gokhale-Benninger

Executive Director
Professor of Sustainable Development Planning

Centre for Development Studies and Activities (CDSA)

Tel. No. +91-20-64730010/ 22951918/ 22951138

E mail: off...@cdsaindia.org, admis...@cdsaindia.org, et...@cdsaindia.org

Website: www.cdsaindia.org

[Abhijit Athavale]

Ooh! While everyone here is orgasming, if the 2.0 miles of freeways in san Francisco were not pulled down, they would have collapsed due to the severe damage suffered in the 1989 earthquake.

This writer has no concept of cause and effect. He should check out how much the housing prices in the entire bay area have increased from 1996 to today without any other freeways being pulled down.

And to think that pulling down a freeway in Dallas would immediately make people start walking without getting killed or mugged in downtown is a joke. Or do the criminals also get removed with freeways? But, I am not a Dallas expert - perhaps Amit can comment.

----- Sent from a mobile device. Please excuse the brevity.

[Sujit Patwardhan]

So what are you saying?

That even more freeways should be built (that will IMMEDIATELY eliminate muggings and other crimes)?

--

Sujit

[Amit Paranjape]

Abhijit,

Since you brought up Dallas .. let me remind you that Dallas downtown is a nice place :-)

And for what its worth, let me just add couple of data points on Dallas/Fort Worth:

They have made some good progress on light rail over the past decade (a long way to go...)

And by the way - they are expanding the main I-635 freeway (that goes through the heart of the city..) from 10 Lanes to 16 Lanes (overhead lanes). 

Amit

[Abhijit Athavale]

Did I say that? No. I said that you should stop orgasming over the fact that city of san Francisco demolished 2 miles of old freeways seriously damaged in the earthquake. Don't put words into my mouth.

----- Sent from a mobile device. Please excuse the brevity.

[Harshad Abhyankar]

जरा शिळ्या कढीला ऊत आणतोय, ... but it is important to stress one point.

While it is true that this freeway was severely damaged, a few years ago America would not have batted an eyelid to grab this opportunity to build a freeway with more lanes.  Those who are ecstatic to read the original mail below certainly do not expect Americans to start pulling down freeways left and right.  It is very difficult to get over the traditional way of thinking, as Dallas adding lanes to a freeway shows.

My point is this: Traditional thinking does not have to win a point over people because it already has a base of supporters.  When people think differently and build a new solution, at least something that is still new in their environs, they have to win an argument over traditional thinking (in a democracy).  And that indicates that this "new" thinking has substance.

Signs that America is also thinking differently are therefore something to be ecstatic about.  Not because "I too think like that", but because it must have been evaluated by experts as a better option - so much better that it must have convinced many more people.  Traditional thinking doesn't need to "win anyone over".

And we see more and more such things happening, all over the world.  That is a sign that such options are being considered by more and more people as better options for development.

- Harshad.

---

From: Abhijit Athavale <abhijit....@gmail.com>
To: ptt...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, 21 June 2013 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [pttfgen:4647] Interstate highways being pulled down

[Abhijit Athavale]

Hmmm ... they just added two lanes to I880 in San Jose in 2013. They also added one more lane to 101 over the last year. They are taking care of traffic instead of wallowing in ideology.

The freeway was pulled down in 1996.

----- Sent from a mobile device. Please excuse the brevity.

[Aneeta]

How about doing some " objective" thinking of our own? Why are we behaving so slavishly that we need justification for what is right for us from what " THEY"  are doing in the US of A?

What do we actually believe? Or are we so lost that we are incapable of doing any thinking of our own? What is right for our context? What do we think is right? 

For once it would be great to hear about the principles we believe in, and what we will be able to achieve if we follow those. And how we have been able to come up with our own solutions which have helped us do it.

We really need to go "native". 

Regards

Aneeta

Aneeta Gokhale Benninger

Executive Director

Professor of Sustainable Development Planning

Centre for Development Studies and Activities (CDSA)

Contact telephone nos.

+91-20-64730010/22951138

Telefax: +91-20-22951138

Website: www.cdsaindia.org

Sent from my iPad

[Amit Paranjape]

Fair point. Do note -  this thread started because of U.S. and other international references to what 'other countries/cities' are doing.

[Harshad Abhyankar]

Aneeta,

Absolutely, agreed 100%.

The "we" and "they" in my mail did not refer to India and US.  I meant "NGOs" and "trained professionals".  That's because quite a few people believe that though many NGO folks do not have a formal training in this subject, yet claim to be experts.

Yeah, I did say "even American experts..."  That is because the prevailing traditional thinking has hitherto kind of overpowered a different, "native" way of managing transportation.  So native examples (implemented) are difficult to find, for now.

- Harshad.

---

From: Aneeta <aneetab...@gmail.com>
To: "ptt...@googlegroups.com" <ptt...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "ptt...@googlegroups.com" <ptt...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2013 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [pttfgen:4653] Interstate highways being pulled down

[Harshad Abhyankar]

That is exactly my point.  America is so much enslaved by the car that they are compelled to get dragged behind it.  Yes, they will, and will have to, keep on building more lanes for a while.  That is precisely why even a single instance of choosing not to build a freeway/ flyover in an American city stands out.

Call it ideology, call it whatever.  I personally don't have any intention of convincing anyone if anyone chooses not to be convinced.  The fact remains that more and more other people are getting convinced that it is important to take care of pedestrians, public transport and cyclists first, and discourage use of personal vehicles.  And this convincing is happening purely because the logic holds water.  A tide is coming.  These examples are just the first few ripples, hence are sporadic, esp in countries like USA.  These ripples will soon be waves.  When the tide comes, people will have only two options: Swim with it or get swept away.

---

From: Abhijit Athavale <abhijit....@gmail.com>
To: ptt...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2013 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [pttfgen:4652] Interstate highways being pulled down

[Jayant Joshi]

I am sure many environmentalists and NGO's were tagged as "anti-development" when they tried to oppose the conventional way of thinking in Uttarakhand and the results are evident! I don't know about others, but I certainly want to grow old and still be able to cross the road in Pune unassisted ;-)

[Abhijit Athavale]

I love Armageddons

----- Sent from a mobile device. Please excuse the brevity.

[Ranjit Gadgil]

For those who think that opposition to building roads as a way to solving congestion is misplaced ideology, please do watch this excellent film. The proviso in this statement is essential and negates the proposition that no roads should be built.

I will post some more in the days to come.

http://bit.ly/db-seoul

-- Ranjit

[Anil Risbud]

Dear Abhijit and others,

Armadeddon or not, I think a slow deterioration (to unliveability of cities due to poor management of transportation, to environmental degradation due to global warming) is certainly in the process of happening, esp. around the world's cities.

Optimists who rely on "future technology breakthroughs" arguments are taking a huge risks, with lives of our children and grandchildren at least in the short term. (In the long term, everyone is dead!!).

The fact remains, that at the present level of technology and resource constraints, and given the constraints on urban (re)design, ownership of  personal vehicles by all (families), is simply not scalable, at least in Indian cities. An emphasis on NMT and Public transport, coupled with policies that restrict ownership and/or use of personal vehicles is the only logical way forward.

I am not opposed to the concept of everyone enjoying equal opportunity to buy/use personal vehicles per se, but that would be possible only in a techological utopia with flying vehicles powered perhaps by fusion or by massive solar arrays in deserts.

A purely selfish argument: If enlightened car owners do not realize the above quickly, and decide to support this shift actively, their "privilege" of owning/driving cars is likely to turn into a nightmare of daily long snarls, as is already happening around Indian cities - during our lifetime. (Since people do not seem to be getting moved by the children/grandchildren arguments anymore).

best regards,

Anil Risbud

On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Abhijit Athavale <abhijit....@gmail.com> wrote: