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> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to start a non-technical discussion about Voldemort's community, visibility, and so on.
>
> First off, I love Voldemort. I'm a committer and I respect Jay, Alex, Roshan, Bhupesh immensely. I've been extremely blessed to work with those guys on Voldemort. I'm not into self-promotion and hype and assume most here aren't either. At the same time, I view the various non-relational data stores as "competing" for mind share and I have to be pragmatic in terms of the tools I invest my time in. My fear is that 'laying low' in terms of the project's visibility will result in more people ignoring Voldemort and thus its eventual irrelevance.
>
> I'll be frank -- I have a lot of questions that bother me:
>
> • Where are the non-LinkedIn core committers?
I'm one, but very inactive these days - mostly just due to time, my satisfaction with V - not lack of interest. My situation aside, this is an important point - committer diversity contributes greatly to the health and strength of a project.
> • Where are the commercial "support and training" companies for Voldemort (a la Riptano, Northscale, 10gen, etc.)?
It's a reasonable question, but... are they needed? I've been running V in our main, makes-all-the-money production systems at Gilt Groupe for over a year now and it's been great. I had one problem - due to a bug in a connection pool - and hitting the list or Jay/Alex directly solved it quickly.
> • Where are the discussions about road map?
Good question, but why *should* it keep evolving past a point? At some point, you hit the design target, or enough of it. What's missing now?
> • Where are the "success stories" of companies (outside of LinkedIn) using Voldemort -- and if there are any, why aren't they on the main web site?
I'd be proud to post ours.
> • Where are the stories about Voldemort in the media?
> • Where are the forthcoming books ("Voldemort - the Definitive Guide")?
> • Where are the add-on/plugin projects and vendors?
>
> In my (unqualified) opinion - Voldemort is losing the battle in developer mind share. You're going to hate me for posting this, but this echoes the thought:
>
> http://regulargeek.com/2010/09/10/nosql-job-trends-september-2010/
I don't understand what it means to be a 'nosql job'. Does that mean the job is focused on the named tech, or that the named tech is involved?
If the latter, why isn't memcached there? That's arguably a 'nosql technology' and I imagine is many, many orders of magnitude higher. (Every Rails job is a 'nosql job' then, right? :)
>
> I expect some hate mail here, but don't get me wrong -- I'm speaking from a position of commitment to the project. I want the Voldemort community to blossom past just LinkedIn and a few pilot projects.
We're not "pilot". We're "took us from $90MM to $500MM and we're still growing..."
>
> What can I do to improve things? I've never participated in an open source community this much before, but I am willing to help. Here are some things I've thought about:
>
> • Refocusing my consulting company as a Voldemort professional services company
That would be great, but is there demand?
Here's my concerns :
1) I've been involved in OSS in one way or another for the last decade, and my preference is a vibrant, supportive community here on the list (a la apache projects of yore). That's a strawman and I'm sure not what you are imagining, but I thought I'd throw it [clumsily] out there.
2) You're a valuable asset in this community. do you worry about being in conflict? Would you put as much energy into helping people on the lists when your fiduciary duty to yourself/family is to generate revenue.
> • Start a local Meetup group for Voldemort committers, contributors, etc. (they have these for Hadoop and Hive, at least)
The latter are harder to use :)
I volunteer to try this in NYC.
> • Speak at local user groups about Voldemort
Happy to do that as well. I've given a few talks (web2.0, qcon, ETE, etc) about V, and always happy to do more.
> • Evangelize and find the success stories; turn on the marketing engine :)
I'm tired :)
>
> My issue with the above is that I'm not sure there's interest enough (in the marketplace) to support these ideas. Also, I've never done any of the above :) But I'm willing to try.
>
> What are your thoughts? Flames, answers, advice -- any input is welcome.
I'm a satisfied user - my life depends on voldemort. I talk about it. I recommend it. But the damn thing just works. ALso, maybe it's too niche? I guess there's a set of design patterns around using V - I'd be happy to share ours - but it's just not the same as MongoDB or Couch in terms of being able to scale in the small (back your PHP-based blog), and IIRC, there haven't been any high-profile disasters with the tech (e.g. Cassandra at Digg...)
One thing we might do is try to get some tools and related going. At Gilt, we wrap V in a 'service' that only speaks JSON, so clients really don't know it's V or have to speak V. They have to deal with the API semantics of versioning, but it's not a big deal - we've adapted our ROR codebase via ActiveResource to work with it just fine.
I'm happy to get our so-called "kvstore" out in OSS - maybe others have similar things they've developed?
geir
Thanks for the feedback. Questions/comments/etc. inline...
>> � Where are the commercial "support and training" companies for Voldemort (a la Riptano, Northscale, 10gen, etc.)?
> It's a reasonable question, but... are they needed? I've been running V in our main, makes-all-the-money production systems at Gilt Groupe for over a year now and it's been great. I had one problem - due to a bug in a connection pool - and hitting the list or Jay/Alex directly solved it quickly.
>
It's one of those things that ideally wouldn't be needed, but my
question is - is the lack of such companies indicative of lack of belief
in the project or--speaking in the positive--a testament to the quality
of answers on the ML and IRC?
>
>> � Where are the discussions about road map?
> Good question, but why *should* it keep evolving past a point? At some point, you hit the design target, or enough of it. What's missing now?
True, we shouldn't add things just for the sake of it. And if there
isn't anything missing, then that should be stated. But I know that the
guys at LinkedIn have to work on something, right? :)
>> � Where are the "success stories" of companies (outside of LinkedIn) using Voldemort -- and if there are any, why aren't they on the main web site?
> I'd be proud to post ours.
If you could post it to Roshan's newly added page
(http://github.com/voldemort/voldemort/wiki/Powered-By) that would be
awesome!
>> � Where are the stories about Voldemort in the media?
>> � Where are the forthcoming books ("Voldemort - the Definitive Guide")?
>> � Where are the add-on/plugin projects and vendors?
>>
>> In my (unqualified) opinion - Voldemort is losing the battle in developer mind share. You're going to hate me for posting this, but this echoes the thought:
>>
>> http://regulargeek.com/2010/09/10/nosql-job-trends-september-2010/
> I don't understand what it means to be a 'nosql job'. Does that mean the job is focused on the named tech, or that the named tech is involved?
>
> If the latter, why isn't memcached there? That's arguably a 'nosql technology' and I imagine is many, many orders of magnitude higher. (Every Rails job is a 'nosql job' then, right? :)
>
Sure - I question the metrics too :)
But it *is* a data point that engineering managers, developers, etc. use
to determine interest, maturity, community, availability of talent, etc.
>> I expect some hate mail here, but don't get me wrong -- I'm speaking from a position of commitment to the project. I want the Voldemort community to blossom past just LinkedIn and a few pilot projects.
> We're not "pilot". We're "took us from $90MM to $500MM and we're still growing..."
Great. We need more of these :)
>> What can I do to improve things? I've never participated in an open source community this much before, but I am willing to help. Here are some things I've thought about:
>>
>> � Refocusing my consulting company as a Voldemort professional services company
> That would be great, but is there demand?
>
> Here's my concerns :
>
> 1) I've been involved in OSS in one way or another for the last decade, and my preference is a vibrant, supportive community here on the list (a la apache projects of yore). That's a strawman and I'm sure not what you are imagining, but I thought I'd throw it [clumsily] out there.
>
> 2) You're a valuable asset in this community. do you worry about being in conflict? Would you put as much energy into helping people on the lists when your fiduciary duty to yourself/family is to generate revenue.
>
Yes, I don't really want to take this approach :)
But the points you make are correct - my personal aim is to make the
community stronger. I believe the other things will fall naturally into
place (for everyone).
>> � Start a local Meetup group for Voldemort committers, contributors, etc. (they have these for Hadoop and Hive, at least)
> The latter are harder to use :)
>
> I volunteer to try this in NYC.
>
Roshan mentioned trying to start something up here in the valley. Do we
know where the core committers and other interested parties are located,
geographically-speaking?
> I'm a satisfied user - my life depends on voldemort. I talk about it. I recommend it. But the damn thing just works. ALso, maybe it's too niche? I guess there's a set of design patterns around using V - I'd be happy to share ours - but it's just not the same as MongoDB or Couch in terms of being able to scale in the small (back your PHP-based blog), and IIRC, there haven't been any high-profile disasters with the tech (e.g. Cassandra at Digg...)
To be fair, was Cassandra ever outed as the culprit?
> One thing we might do is try to get some tools and related going. At Gilt, we wrap V in a 'service' that only speaks JSON, so clients really don't know it's V or have to speak V. They have to deal with the API semantics of versioning, but it's not a big deal - we've adapted our ROR codebase via ActiveResource to work with it just fine.
Isn't there a JSON frontend being discussed somewhere?
Thanks guys!
Kirk
To add the discussion, last week we put in place our first production
Voldemort cluster. This cluster will contains 20+ nodes and hold over
5 TB of master (non-replicated) data . We plan to make extensive use
of Voldemort in the future -- this is just the first of many potential
installs.
--
If necessary I can help with getting Maven artifacts deployed via
Sonatype repository. Since github does not offer direct Maven sync
service (as far as I know), Sonatype's free OSS project hosting (see
https://docs.sonatype.org/display/Repository/Sonatype+OSS+Maven+Repository+Usage+Guide)
is a good way to publish Maven artifacts to central Maven
repositories. This is quite easy to do, but obviously some work first
time; although not a ton after reading that article and cut'n pasting
setup from one of many existing projects that use it.
-+ Tatu +-
I think there are multiple parts to this:
(a) Exposing artifacts via Maven. I think this is a must for Java OSS
projects by now
(b) Building project using Maven. This is pretty much optional.
There are ways to achieve (a) from other build systems (as well as
using Maven repositories for external parts). I have projects with Ant
builds that use maven-ant-tasks for publishing jars to Maven repos for
example.
It is often just as easy to do both, which is why complete conversions
are common.
But I guess what you are saying is that you would not want to be
forced to use Maven for downloading distribution? I think that can be
done even if using Maven as build system.
-+ Tatu +-
On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:05 AM, Maarten KoopmansI think there are multiple parts to this:
<maarten....@gmail.com> wrote:
> But, please, let's use Maven as an option besides the current distro. I for
> one am not too happy with ant/Maven/SBT etc. (no flames intended).
(a) Exposing artifacts via Maven. I think this is a must for Java OSS
projects by now
(b) Building project using Maven. This is pretty much optional.
- Alex
On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 9:12 AM, Tatu Saloranta <tsalo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think there are multiple parts to this:
>
> (a) Exposing artifacts via Maven. I think this is a must for Java OSS
> projects by now
> (b) Building project using Maven. This is pretty much optional.
>
> There are ways to achieve (a) from other build systems (as well as
> using Maven repositories for external parts). I have projects with Ant
> builds that use maven-ant-tasks for publishing jars to Maven repos for
> example.
> It is often just as easy to do both, which is why complete conversions
> are common.
>
> But I guess what you are saying is that you would not want to be
> forced to use Maven for downloading distribution? I think that can be
> done even if using Maven as build system.
>
> -+ Tatu +-
>
> Anyway, it seems most people mainly care about a client jar. And it
> probably require restructuring the project to create a client module,
> or any unusual way to build (for maven, I guess it is possible to use
> build-helper-maven-plugin to select the specific packages)
I would assume that building a true *client* JAR would require some
code-level changes to move things around and separate things along that
boundary.
Thanks,
Kirk
But I guess what you are saying is that you would not want to be
forced to use Maven for downloading distribution? I think that can be
done even if using Maven as build system.
What's the status on getting the build system to spit out a POM? I'm
starting a new project soon and would love to use Ivy/Maven (/me ducks).
Thanks,
Kirk