time for a new poll

[Tommy Fergusson]

http://pirateparty.org.nz/home/polls-archive/

Suggest questions and possible answers for a new poll here.

When we find something a few people like, we'll use it.

[Bruce Kingsbury]

"Should the Pirate Party support Kim Dotcom?"

Or even just "Do you think Kim Dotcom is guilty?"

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[Andrew McPherson]

Is Kim dotcom involved in a mega conspiracy to make Hollywood obsolete? Is the US government under the influence of a corrupt legacy industry? Does new Zealand deserve to be treated like a sovereign nation? Is Kim dotcom only being prosecuted because he isn't YouTube?

[Tommy Fergusson]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 7:45 PM, Bruce Kingsbury <zc...@zcat.geek.nz> wrote:

"Should the Pirate Party support Kim Dotcom?"

Or even just "Do you think Kim Dotcom is guilty?"

That's a good idea. Besides "yes, he's a scumbag" and "no, he's an hero for the cause", what else can we use to extend the list of options? 

[Zarek Jenkinson]

"Undecided" and "He's done nothing wrong but MegaUpload as a company have". Just to throw a couple out there.

--

[Damian Turner-Steele]

Should file storage even been an extraditable offence? Even if he facilitated the illegal sharing of files?

[Bruce Ashton]

He is innocent until proven guilty - and we shouldn't attempt to
anticipate the decision of the courts.

But certainly we could draw attention to the nature of charges
(copyright infringement) and the nature of the arrest - Dozens of armed
police??? I'm not even sure of the numbers. I would ask whether this
would ever have happened in the U.S. where the charges originate.

We could look at what he is charged with and compare it with what you
can find on Youtube.

Check out the members of the organisation that pressed for these
charges, i.e. the music and movie distributors. A surprising number of
them have been convicted of copyright infringement crimes.

According to Kim Dotcom himself, he had a 20-strong team of employees
working full-time to remove infringing files from their servers. I find
that interesting if it's true.

I would like to ask the question, how much support do 'dot-com'
businesses get from the NZ government and courts. In the ambiguous and
wild-west legal environment in which these big data and big content
multi-national companies compete, a company that doesn't have any
political support doesn't stand a chance.

If I was thinking of setting up a company going head-to-head with the
big boys, I would definitely think twice about doing it in NZ now, when
our law enforcement is so clearly in the pocket of US law enforcement.

This is the thing that bugs me most in some ways, and will bug a lot of
other kiwis. Our police and legal system being another US corporate poodle.

On 28/03/12 22:28, Andrew McPherson wrote:
> Is Kim dotcom involved in a mega conspiracy to make Hollywood obsolete?
> Is the US government under the influence of a corrupt legacy industry?
> Does new Zealand deserve to be treated like a sovereign nation? Is Kim
> dotcom only being prosecuted because he isn't YouTube?
>
> On Mar 28, 2012 7:45 PM, "Bruce Kingsbury" <zc...@zcat.geek.nz

> <mailto:zc...@zcat.geek.nz>> wrote:
>
> "Should the Pirate Party support Kim Dotcom?"
>
> Or even just "Do you think Kim Dotcom is guilty?"
>
>
> On 28 March 2012 18:56, Tommy Fergusson <per...@pirateparty.org.nz

> <mailto:per...@pirateparty.org.nz>> wrote:
>
> http://pirateparty.org.nz/home/polls-archive/
>
> Suggest questions and possible answers for a new poll here.
> When we find something a few people like, we'll use it.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the New
> Zealand Pirate Party mailing list.
> To post to the list, send an email to pp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:pp...@googlegroups.com>

> To unsubscribe, send an email to
> ppnz+uns...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:ppnz%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> For more options, visit us at:
> http://groups.google.com/group/ppnz?hl=en
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the New
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[Pepe le Vamp]

I think the question of 'is he guilty?' needs to be severely expanded because we're living in a time where the laws are being changed willy nilly & people are disagreeing with the law itself.

I guess that's always the case, but recently its technology laws being affected & that's why we showed up aye.

My answer to if we support Kim is a colossal Yes.

[Bruce Ashton]

To summarize:

The proportionality of the response to the alleged crime.

The apparent lack of independence of our law enforcement from the US

[Tommy Fergusson]

I think the question of 'is he guilty?' needs to be severely expanded

How can the question be re-written to be not specifically about the outcome of a trial?

 

how about "Do you believe KDC / MU did anything you consider wrong?"

 

how else can we write the question? If we had about 6 different possible answers to that question, what would they be?

 

[Chris Pacey]

is megaupload, possibly the most proactive filelocker when it comes to copyrite authority involvement, responsible for the vast number of users breaching its rules just because it's the biggest fish?"

If so then what about YouTube? Scribd

In short no, DC could probably have done more, but he wasn't ignoring it


Sent from my Windows Phone

---

From: Tommy Fergusson
Sent: 3/29/2012 10:41 AM
To: pp...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [PPNZ] time for a new poll

--

[Lukas Korsika]

I think it's a two part question, really.

Do you believe KDC/MU did what they are accused of?
Do you believe what they were accused of to be morally wrong?

Which essentially gives us four (basic) answers:
- Yes, they broke the law and should be punished.
- They did break the law, but have done nothing morally wrong.
- They're innocent, but had they done it the consequences suggested
are appropriate.
- They're innocent, and even if they did it, the law is clearly unjust.

Obviously those aren't great poll wordings, though.

[Damian Turner-Steele]

After some more thought, and if I understand the situation correctly, KDC had broken no law while resident in NZ with respect to copyright. This being so, should the question not be framed with respect to the actions of the police and the governments response to the Americans request for extradition?

Could this action be taken against any NZ citizen or resident so accused by a foreign government and if such a person was not reasonably well-known and wealthy what possibilty of a fair trial would they have.

Certainly depriving a person of their freedom and the destruction of their livelihood without having a cast iron case that allows a full and proper trial expeditiously must surely be called into question.

Regards

Damian

[Tommy Fergusson]

Yeah, in terms of ideas, that's a good point.

re how the question is actually worded, I say just make it a simple question roughly on topic, but make sure the answers cover at least all 4 of those options. The answers are really more important.

The question should at first sound simple. If we use e.g. "Do you believe KDC / MU did anything you consider wrong?" - what answers would we want to use to convey those options? (Want an actual decision on this soonish and get the new poll up)

1) Yes, he broke the law and deserves to be found guilty

2) No, he did break the law, but the law is ridiculous

3) No, what he is accused of is wrong, but I doubt he did it

4) He's probably innocent, but even if he did it, the law is clearly unjust

5) I don't know, it depends what comes to light at the trial

6) He did something which, while not illegal, is still wrong

any edits to those? any other options which aren't covered?

[Reece Arnott]

On 29/03/12 18:38, Tommy Fergusson wrote:

"Do you believe KDC / MU did anything you consider wrong?" - what answers would we want to use to convey those options? (Want an actual decision on this soonish and get the new poll up)

1) Yes, he broke the law and deserves to be found guilty

2) No, he did break the law, but the law is ridiculous

3) No, what he is accused of is wrong, but I doubt he did it

4) He's probably innocent, but even if he did it, the law is clearly unjust

5) I don't know, it depends what comes to light at the trial

6) He did something which, while not illegal, is still wrong

any edits to those? any other options which aren't covered?

Note that for the purposes of the extradition he is not being charged with copyright infringement or inciting copyright infringement (which is the way it is being framed in the media) but other weird and wonderful stuff that he can actually be extradited for like "conspiracy to launder money" so there should be a couple of options about that as well.

-- 
-------------------------
Reece Arnott
University of Otago
Dunedin
New Zealand
-------------------------

[Tommy Fergusson]

so... 7) He has broken US or NZ law, but nothing worthy of extradition or asset seizure

that cover it? what else?

--

[Tommy Fergusson]

btw, poll goes live at midnight Saturday. Can still edit the question / answers until then.

[Philip Dowie]

Too many options.   I like good options as much as the next guy, but you won't get any decisive results when you provide so many possibilities.

[Tommy Fergusson]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Philip Dowie <phi...@jnawk.net.nz> wrote:

Too many options.   I like good options as much as the next guy, but you won't get any decisive results when you provide so many possibilities.

You can allow multiple answers. Would that help?

[Philip Dowie]

That would make the difference, I think, but wouldn't it get a little harder to interpret the results?

--

[Tommy Fergusson]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Philip Dowie <phi...@jnawk.net.nz> wrote:

That would make the difference, I think, but wouldn't it get a little harder to interpret the results?

well, what do you want to interpret from it? I'll limit it to 3 options each. As long as no one tries to aggregate similar answers for anything.

If you want poll results you can rigorously interpret, see here ;)

[Bruce Ashton]

Just another point, Kim Dotcom wasn't the entity accused of copyright
violations. He was the director and presumably the largest shareholder
of a company that was accused of facilitating violations.

This might be seen as hair-splitting from some angles, but taking such
actions against a director for the actions of a company has to be very
unusual to say the least.

I think about 4 people were deprived of their freedom and dozens,
possibly hundreds have been deprived of their livelihood.

This site was by many measures one of the top 50 most used websites in
2010. (See attached image.) I believe it was even bigger when it was
taken down, accounting for some 6% of web traffic.

And it was operating for years at this side before the US courts
suddenly decided to take action? Make no mistake, this is a corporate
turf war.

On 29/03/12 15:29, Damian Turner-Steele wrote:
> After some more thought, and if I understand the situation correctly,
> KDC had broken no law while resident in NZ with respect to copyright.
> This being so, should the question not be framed with respect to the
> actions of the police and the governments response to the Americans
> request for extradition?
>
> Could this action be taken against any NZ citizen or resident so accused
> by a foreign government and if such a person was not reasonably
> well-known and wealthy what possibilty of a fair trial would they have.
>
> Certainly depriving a person of their freedom and the destruction of
> their livelihood without having a cast iron case that allows a full and
> proper trial expeditiously must surely be called into question.
>
> Regards
>
> Damian
>
> On 29 March 2012 11:33, Lukas Korsika <quazam...@gmail.com

> <mailto:quazam...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I think it's a two part question, really.
>
> Do you believe KDC/MU did what they are accused of?
> Do you believe what they were accused of to be morally wrong?
>
> Which essentially gives us four (basic) answers:
> - Yes, they broke the law and should be punished.
> - They did break the law, but have done nothing morally wrong.
> - They're innocent, but had they done it the consequences suggested
> are appropriate.
> - They're innocent, and even if they did it, the law is clearly unjust.
>
> Obviously those aren't great poll wordings, though.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the New
> Zealand Pirate Party mailing list.
> To post to the list, send an email to pp...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:pp...@googlegroups.com>

> To unsubscribe, send an email to
> ppnz+uns...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:ppnz%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Robert Ueberfeldt]

Innocent till proven guilty. If he is found guilty the laws need changing.

[Tommy Fergusson]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Tommy Fergusson <tom...@pirateparty.org.nz> wrote:

"Do you believe KDC / MU did anything you consider wrong?" - what answers would we want to use to convey those options? (Want an actual decision on this soonish and get the new poll up)

1) Yes, he broke the law and deserves to be found guilty

2) No, he did break the law, but the law is ridiculous

3) No, what he is accused of is wrong, but I doubt he did it

4) He's probably innocent, but even if he did it, the law is clearly unjust

5) I don't know, it depends what comes to light at the trial

6) He did something which, while not illegal, is still wrong

any edits to those? any other options which aren't covered?

The new poll is now up.

We can still edit the answers and the question, but we won't make any big changes to the meanings of them.

If there's something you think we should change to make it clearer etc. bring it up here or let webmaster know.

Pervach