Computer from Scratch..

[Si_halliday]

So part of the discussion last night was whether we could build a computer from the ground up, start with hardware, then evolve into a full operating system.

As far as I see it, we either start with an off the shelf ARM, these are pretty cheap and powerful, or if we really want to start from scratch, we could use a FPGA, and design a processor from logic gates upwards.

To give an idea on whats possible look at this :  http://www.nand2tetris.org/

its a small course on how to start with NAND gates, and works up to developing a simple operating system, culminating in the development of Tetris to run on it.

FPGAs are fairly cheap to use, and have the advantage of being infinitely customisable.

[James Wade]

Hi Simon, et al,

That's a brilliant idea, I like the idea of a course that teaches you all the elements of building a computer from the ground up. However, do you have something tangible at the end of it?

By the way, I had a look into ARM again and I found that in 2006, ARM's licensing revenues for processor cores were £65.2 million, in a year when 65 processor licenses were signed, an average of £1 million per license.

Don't let that put you off. There's still things that can be done. Whether it’s an off the shelf chip, or via an ARM development programme or by partnering with an existing licensee to get them to produce the chip.

I'm pretty keen to use and learn more about the ARM architecture because I really believe it's the future of modern computing, it's winning the war against Intel because of it's low heat and low power consumption. I also love it's British heritage. Having said that I know next to nothing about FPGA and wouldn't be opposed to learning about it either.

Anyway, I figured there's 5 elements to a project like this...

1, SoC: chip architecture

2, Board: hardware engineering

3, Case: designing, moulding

4, Operating System: software engineering, programming, user interface design

5, Human interface device: a project in itself

There's lots of areas we can already come in at by using an existing board such as the raspberry pi, curbie board, etc. For example:

Using a 3D printer would be perfect for making a case. You can take this as far as you want to go, designing it with a USB hub included too if you wanted.

Building an operating system from scratch, or stripping back an existing one to be uber quick is something that might be cool.

There's lots of scope in this project for everyone get involved and to take it as far as they want and have something to be proud to show to friends and family in the end.

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[James Wade]

Came across this today:

http://blog.notdot.net/2012/10/Build-your-own-FPGA

I also put together a little short list of reading around the ARM chip:

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_single-board_computers#ARM_based

* http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Allwinner_A10_devices

* http://archlinuxarm.org/platforms/armv7

* http://paulgraham.com/hw.html

* http://www.wired.com/business/2012/08/ff_intel/3/

* http://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/LinuxChromiumArm

I also managed to find a couple of UK based semiconductor companies, Imagination Technologies and CSR, but it is my understanding that they are "fabless", they outsource the fabrication or manufacturing to Chinese based semiconductor fabrication plant or foundry. With that in mind, it's probably just as easy to pick one off the shelf, as they are all "made in China" anyway.

The best you'll get is designed in the UK, but that's OK, we can cope with that.

[Dan R]

I really like the idea of a computer from scratch. As I have mentioned to a few of you I have been looking at OS development for a while now. My only concern is that it would be ages before we had much to show for it. That said I would still really enjoy it.

Off the shelf ARM and FPGA are both great ideas, though I would lean more towards the ARM I would really enjoy learning about either (I intend to learn about both at some point).

I think cost involved in buying and programming whichever should be thought about carefully. In my eyes we would get a lot more out of it if those who are interested can afford to get their own chip/programmer/whatever. That way people can add to and play about with it on their own and show off the cool mods they made the next time we meet. After all that is one of the really cool things about the Pi.

[James Wade]

You're right. This project would be more of a "long game" and I see this running in parallel with other projects people have mentioned.

However, the beauty of this project is that there's a clear vision, we know what to aim for, we can keep reaching for it and take it as far as we want to go with it once we've built a prototype.

I see it this way. If I can make something I want to see in my living room and my family and friends actually understand what it is or what they can do with it, it's a winner.

First of, there's some stuff we can do for free, for example, building the OS comes at no cost, apart from your time, it can be done in spare time and showcased at HackSpace for peer review.

It's absolutely crucial that we show people what we can do by showing them something tactile. Building a 3D printer is essential as this can be used to prototype a case for this project and used in other projects alike.

I think it goes without saying that if you want something at the end of it, you'll have to buy the parts yourself. However, costs of the tools and machinery such as the 3D printer would need to be shared really so everyone can make use of them.

It may also be a good idea to see who wants what parts so we can bulk order, even if it is just 10, it will be cheaper than buying 1. Especially if we're importing anything from China.

For now, I'm hoping to focus on building a 3D printer, playing with ARM OS's/browsers and toying with and researching various hardware (ARM chip, screens, human interface devices/bluetooth), all of which can be done with the Raspberry Pi.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm excited.

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[Simon Halliday]

Also it may be better to do it all on the ARM first, then eventually look at building a processor from scratch in the FPGA, and porting it over.

Ive also got a small FPGA test board I built ages ago with a 1.7" OLED display on it, ill see if it still works, if so im sure this could find its way into the hackspace dev kit :), if people like it, I think ive got 4 more unbuilt boards knocking around..

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[Simon Halliday]

Sounds good, I'd like to see if we could also develop a opensource ARM or FPGA programmer to use for this, a commercial fpga one runs about 100 quid, I've got one we could always use for now though.

I'm also hoping to learn some more about ARM, it was going to be my next step at work..

Texas Instruments and I think ST have free development suites for their parts, Im not sure if you can use Eclipse as well.. I looked at some comprehensive suites for every ARM out there, but they are veeery expensive.

The beauty about ARM is they start small and cheap, (8 pin, about 30p), so they can replace PIC processors, then you can move up through the ranks to RaspPi kind of power.

Ive also got a small ST development board I'd be happy to donate, it would be a start. Its only got a small ARM on it, but we could get blinky lights going.

So what would people like to use the PotteriesOS for? I'd be interested in developing some home automation for it, maybe a X10 interface? What about getting to the stage where you can run a desktop style GUI on it?

[James Wade]

Hi Si,

I've been looking at a few options, trying to learn about the various ARM chips out on the market, look at importing costs of systems out there to get an idea of how it can (but shouldn't) be done.

I quite like the "Allwinner A10", there seems to be plenty of support for it already which gives you a little boost. I like this chip because it's got HDMI and SATA. It's used on tablets (eg: M009S) and Android "sticks" (eg: MK802) as well as boards such as curbieboard.

My only issue now is that I think it could well be already a little dated, so I'm exploring new options.

I then went back to checking on alibaba how much it would be to import an ARM chip, and then went on to look at Farnell.

Then I came across various "development kits":

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/processor-microcontroller-development-kits/6962345/?origin=PSF_431027|fp

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/bespoke/bespoke7.jsp?ICID=I-ARM-HPBLB-003&bespokepage=farnell/en_UK/promotions/ARM_LandingPage.jsp

So I assume this is similar to what you're talking about?

I think it'd be fun to start with the basics, get the chip to light something up or whatever, then work upwards.

As for the OS, my primary objective is to get it to load an Internet browser and load it fast. I mainly want to get to a point where it sits in my living room and plugs into my TV so I can stream music or video.

I realise there's things on the market that can do this already (to a degree), but I'm really keen to do this from scratch (or as much as possible).

I see the RISC OS has now come to Pi, I imagine that would be a great starting point for us to learn about for building an OS or we could look at Linux based options.

Anyway, the world is our oyster on this project and I guess that's why it's so interesting.

I've also see the EVE box which is an expansion board and case for the Pi, which allows for home automation and uses Zigbee technology to do it (among others), so we could certainly look at that kinda thing too, eventually...

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[Simon Halliday]

Hi,
        Its a little confusing knowing where to start, as you've probably realised theres a lot of ARM out there.  One company to look at is Texas Instruments, http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/arm/overview.page

As you can see, you can start small and cheaply, then move on to the beast processors.  They also do a free version of their development software, not sure how good it is though.

I've a couple of smaller development kits than that, Ill dig them out and bring them down.

I agree, be worth getting a LED to flash first, to verify we can compile and program them before going bigger.

You can also use the Pi in a bare metal mode, where you develop code without a OS. This could be a place to start also as the hardware is built and tested and is cheap..


Home Automation is something I'm very interested in, the EVE looks cool and cheap enough.  The RF modules are pretty good prices to, about £6 for the 433MHz transcievers.. Could be very useful for Robots as well.

Cheers

Si

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[James Wade]

Yeah I like TI, I've had a TI calculator and laptop in the past...

However, my concern is that TI is obviously a US based company, so I imagine they take their cut while sending the chips to you, while the Chinese based companies who actually own the fabs might work out cheaper.

I've not seen many TI chips in use, compared to say the Allwinner chip. I've also seen this in loads of hardware and seen an open source linux kernel.

Oh wow, I've just come across something else ...

http://linux-sunxi.org/Main_Page

Check this...

http://linux-sunxi.org/A10-OLinuXino

And the github project page:

https://github.com/OLIMEX/OLINUXINO/

It's an entirely open source (hardware and software) computer, based around the Allwinner chips.

You can even download the board schematics. Incredible!

Anyway...

Yeah I'd love to see the development kits and have a play with Pi at bare metal level, so yeah bring what you have along and we'll see how far we get.

Cheers!

[Simon Halliday]

What I'm liking about those beasts is the package. TQFP, yes please... Almost all chips that size/power are BGAs, which, while solderable, are a bit tricky....

Thats a nice board, and only 55 Euros...