Setting the Open Stage for Post-Scarcity Discussion
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Nathan W. Cravens
Feb 5, 2009, 5:15:57 PM2/5/09
to Abundance
I see the Abundance list as a stomping ground for AI, Nanotech,
Transhumanists, Singularitarians, and others with technocentric views
to gather to discuss how these particular areas can create an
environment for post-scarcity. These points of interests often have
splits between scarcity and abundance often divided into political
labels like techno-progressive or techno-libertarian, labels that may
well artificially divide groups from pursuing the same goals. This
forum can provide an outlet for these thinkers to further develop a
strategy, to develop a rhetorical arsenal, to place these technologies
into the broader context of Abundance, and argue more accurately and
completely for the proposition under discussion.
The ethics, politics, and economics (ect.) that underpin
communications artefacts (technology) of Abundance need to be fleshed
out. If you are a member of this list and intend to make Abundance a
reality, the ethical-political-economic-social-cultural (ect.)
dimensions need fleshing out. Those that explore these more intuitive
areas of organizing, including the technocentric views, can be called:
Convergers. Futurist is another label that seems to fit that term, yet
that may be considered a narrow field, however diverse.
To talk of post-scarcity challenges the regimes of dependency that
plague or prevent the autonomy to generate resources infinitely. For
many attached to the scarcity enterprise moreso than ourselves, these
discussions may well be synonymous with talking poorly about one's
mother: a great offence! Deep reflection has surfaced this: a root
cause for scarcity is the Ego, one's valued personhood, which demands
viability by restricting access to resources (intellectual and
material) for the purpose of continued self worth at almost any cost,
knowingly or otherwise. This form of Ego rigidity perpetuates
dependence and therefore scarcity can be addressed and further
explored on this list as a guide post for transcending scarcity by
understanding and then ending the glorification of a toddlerhood
selfishness: the trappings of a "scarce condition."
That Industrial condition does not teach a man to fish, it teaches a
man to build a fishing pole. and to be proud of that fishing pole for
the fishing pole's sake rather than to make a fishing pole to fish for
oneself. The scarce condition stops at the fragment, the divided
expertise, but to believe you are empowered by such a disconnect
likens to mania. A fishing pole may be important for fishing, but
unable to know what one is generating (or why, what, who's purpose?)
prevents us from taking care of ourselves soundly. This means the
division of labor is becoming unsound as communications artefacts are
developed and shared. This is not to say abandon the division of labor
outright, even if that is the noble goal here. Some compare and
contrast will be need between producing globally, locally, personally
to determine what is most efficient or feasible as technological
development or trail of artefacts tumble along.
I am challenged head on by the "dependant condition" of my upbringing
even while knowing conceptually what can generate independence while
at Factor e Farm, a community of highly self motivated researcher-
engineer-builders (i.e. Makers) developing Open Source Ecology,
beginning with the Global Village Construction Set, which is further
reduced to a series of tools used to support the livelihood of
communities by diminishing the toil of using hand tools or toil of
employment in the workforce to pay off a never ending stream of debt.
Each tool in the set and the set as a whole will feasibly and cost
effectively decentralise production in key areas, and affectively,
empower people. My comrades here don't seem to be affected by how
daunting this reality will be to generate, but that may be because we
are tackling "everything one at a time" and also: we don't aim to
develop these tools alone. We are presently fleshing out the
organizational structure via wikis to share with "the world" so "the
world" can share with us so they may better help themselves. We are
building the Fab Lab (workshop) to construct the tools effectively.
The portable saw mill and solar power generator are the present
designs-in-focus. With the collaboration of the entire Maker community
we intend to make the Global Village Construction Set a reality: this
will mean viable production at the local and personal level: reduced
toil and higher living standards world-wide: a global
transformation.
The talk on Abundance may not seem to be in the interests of
Industrial regimes or livelihoods, but when the topic is further
explored, I believe this will provide a bridge for Industry to have
broader foresight than before so to best prepare and enable human
organizations to gradually dispel the dependency loop that both
profiteers and income earners depend on for a material existence or
sound livelihood. If you believe as I do that profit or income is a
sign of waste rather than abundance, and that all debts are in the
process of "being paid," because the technological trend is aiming
toward "the personal fabrication of everything," you can then see
rather clearly the predicament Industrial organizations will face.
Scarcity will progressively degenerate as time and action is put into
shared personally accessible communications artefacts like: the web,
shared (open source) product design and fabrication methods, and
technologies that self replicate designs on the tangible scale with
minimal effort.
The adoption of Open Manufacturing then lends itself to the breakdown
of Adam Smith's classical model of economics. Firms will then, when
the growth model cannot remain steady, make a transition into post-
scarcity by forming inter-network, multi-corporate firm agreements
called semi-scarce organizations. I look forward to exploring semi-
scarce organizations in more detail in another discussion and more
formally.
If you are a member of this list, congratulations, you are officially
a Converger for Abundance. First, as Convergers, we know we can call
ourselves whatever we want: "Converger" is simply a reference point
rather than a set standard of some sort. Our role then as Convergers
is to turn the probability of Abundance into a strategy for action, to
turn the probable into the preferable in the interests of our primary
client: Abundance.
People have many preferences, many of which I believe are not being
met. Its important then to explore and develop further ethical frames
like "Preference Utilitarianism" into a program to align set
preferences with other set preferences: even if both subjects must
have different interests. This ethical framework I believe can replace
money over time. When cynicism is no longer a part of our culture,
when a lash (or the wallet) is no longer required, we will know we
have done our part to establish a truly ethical practice within the
social organization presently called humanity.
Nathan
@ Factor e Farm
Transhumanists, Singularitarians, and others with technocentric views
to gather to discuss how these particular areas can create an
environment for post-scarcity. These points of interests often have
splits between scarcity and abundance often divided into political
labels like techno-progressive or techno-libertarian, labels that may
well artificially divide groups from pursuing the same goals. This
forum can provide an outlet for these thinkers to further develop a
strategy, to develop a rhetorical arsenal, to place these technologies
into the broader context of Abundance, and argue more accurately and
completely for the proposition under discussion.
The ethics, politics, and economics (ect.) that underpin
communications artefacts (technology) of Abundance need to be fleshed
out. If you are a member of this list and intend to make Abundance a
reality, the ethical-political-economic-social-cultural (ect.)
dimensions need fleshing out. Those that explore these more intuitive
areas of organizing, including the technocentric views, can be called:
Convergers. Futurist is another label that seems to fit that term, yet
that may be considered a narrow field, however diverse.
To talk of post-scarcity challenges the regimes of dependency that
plague or prevent the autonomy to generate resources infinitely. For
many attached to the scarcity enterprise moreso than ourselves, these
discussions may well be synonymous with talking poorly about one's
mother: a great offence! Deep reflection has surfaced this: a root
cause for scarcity is the Ego, one's valued personhood, which demands
viability by restricting access to resources (intellectual and
material) for the purpose of continued self worth at almost any cost,
knowingly or otherwise. This form of Ego rigidity perpetuates
dependence and therefore scarcity can be addressed and further
explored on this list as a guide post for transcending scarcity by
understanding and then ending the glorification of a toddlerhood
selfishness: the trappings of a "scarce condition."
That Industrial condition does not teach a man to fish, it teaches a
man to build a fishing pole. and to be proud of that fishing pole for
the fishing pole's sake rather than to make a fishing pole to fish for
oneself. The scarce condition stops at the fragment, the divided
expertise, but to believe you are empowered by such a disconnect
likens to mania. A fishing pole may be important for fishing, but
unable to know what one is generating (or why, what, who's purpose?)
prevents us from taking care of ourselves soundly. This means the
division of labor is becoming unsound as communications artefacts are
developed and shared. This is not to say abandon the division of labor
outright, even if that is the noble goal here. Some compare and
contrast will be need between producing globally, locally, personally
to determine what is most efficient or feasible as technological
development or trail of artefacts tumble along.
I am challenged head on by the "dependant condition" of my upbringing
even while knowing conceptually what can generate independence while
at Factor e Farm, a community of highly self motivated researcher-
engineer-builders (i.e. Makers) developing Open Source Ecology,
beginning with the Global Village Construction Set, which is further
reduced to a series of tools used to support the livelihood of
communities by diminishing the toil of using hand tools or toil of
employment in the workforce to pay off a never ending stream of debt.
Each tool in the set and the set as a whole will feasibly and cost
effectively decentralise production in key areas, and affectively,
empower people. My comrades here don't seem to be affected by how
daunting this reality will be to generate, but that may be because we
are tackling "everything one at a time" and also: we don't aim to
develop these tools alone. We are presently fleshing out the
organizational structure via wikis to share with "the world" so "the
world" can share with us so they may better help themselves. We are
building the Fab Lab (workshop) to construct the tools effectively.
The portable saw mill and solar power generator are the present
designs-in-focus. With the collaboration of the entire Maker community
we intend to make the Global Village Construction Set a reality: this
will mean viable production at the local and personal level: reduced
toil and higher living standards world-wide: a global
transformation.
The talk on Abundance may not seem to be in the interests of
Industrial regimes or livelihoods, but when the topic is further
explored, I believe this will provide a bridge for Industry to have
broader foresight than before so to best prepare and enable human
organizations to gradually dispel the dependency loop that both
profiteers and income earners depend on for a material existence or
sound livelihood. If you believe as I do that profit or income is a
sign of waste rather than abundance, and that all debts are in the
process of "being paid," because the technological trend is aiming
toward "the personal fabrication of everything," you can then see
rather clearly the predicament Industrial organizations will face.
Scarcity will progressively degenerate as time and action is put into
shared personally accessible communications artefacts like: the web,
shared (open source) product design and fabrication methods, and
technologies that self replicate designs on the tangible scale with
minimal effort.
The adoption of Open Manufacturing then lends itself to the breakdown
of Adam Smith's classical model of economics. Firms will then, when
the growth model cannot remain steady, make a transition into post-
scarcity by forming inter-network, multi-corporate firm agreements
called semi-scarce organizations. I look forward to exploring semi-
scarce organizations in more detail in another discussion and more
formally.
If you are a member of this list, congratulations, you are officially
a Converger for Abundance. First, as Convergers, we know we can call
ourselves whatever we want: "Converger" is simply a reference point
rather than a set standard of some sort. Our role then as Convergers
is to turn the probability of Abundance into a strategy for action, to
turn the probable into the preferable in the interests of our primary
client: Abundance.
People have many preferences, many of which I believe are not being
met. Its important then to explore and develop further ethical frames
like "Preference Utilitarianism" into a program to align set
preferences with other set preferences: even if both subjects must
have different interests. This ethical framework I believe can replace
money over time. When cynicism is no longer a part of our culture,
when a lash (or the wallet) is no longer required, we will know we
have done our part to establish a truly ethical practice within the
social organization presently called humanity.
Nathan
@ Factor e Farm
marc fawzi
Feb 5, 2009, 6:34:09 PM2/5/09
to postsc...@googlegroups.com
<<
To talk of post-scarcity challenges the regimes of dependency that
plague or prevent the autonomy to generate resources infinitely.
>>
Or build perpetual motion machines....To talk of post-scarcity challenges the regimes of dependency that
plague or prevent the autonomy to generate resources infinitely.
>>
Mass is finite. The speed of light is finite. Energy is finite.
As far as I know, nothing can be generated infinitely.
That's why economics are needed in the first place, but at this stage of evolution we should abandon the scarcity enforcing model and seek abundance-sustaining models.
Bryan Bishop
Feb 5, 2009, 6:46:13 PM2/5/09
to postsc...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:34 PM, marc fawzi <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:
> As far as I know, nothing can be generated infinitely.
> As far as I know, nothing can be generated infinitely.
Yes, but that doesn't mean you have to go around spamming lists with
bullshit economics. :-) No, more seriously, look at the models for
philanthropical bootstrapping of material recovery initiatives, which
would be where you get the inputs. Nobody had ever said that it was a
good idea to recklessly grow human populations beyond guaranteable
constraints (and indeed, it's hard to see whether we're at that point
now or not- I'm pretty sure we aren't, but whatever).
marc fawzi
Feb 5, 2009, 7:04:35 PM2/5/09
to postsc...@googlegroups.com
The agile process is what it is. High bandwidth communication, frequent updates, rough quality that gets better over time. If that's called 'spam' by those who don't like this type of agile development then I guess they have to deal with it.
Bullshit economics is the economics we have today. Any attempt to move away from it is a departure from bullshit.
I think that in general, you're good at finding information. But as far as your ability to reason... it's still very basic. I think you could spend less time collating info and more time understanding basic logic and how to reason. :-)
Bullshit economics is the economics we have today. Any attempt to move away from it is a departure from bullshit.
I think that in general, you're good at finding information. But as far as your ability to reason... it's still very basic. I think you could spend less time collating info and more time understanding basic logic and how to reason. :-)
Bryan Bishop
Feb 5, 2009, 7:22:50 PM2/5/09
to postsc...@googlegroups.com, kan...@gmail.com
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 6:04 PM, marc fawzi <marc....@gmail.com> wrote:
> The agile process is what it is. High bandwidth communication, frequent
> updates, rough quality that gets better over time. If that's called 'spam'
> by those who don't like this type of agile development then I guess they
> have to deal with it.
> The agile process is what it is. High bandwidth communication, frequent
> updates, rough quality that gets better over time. If that's called 'spam'
> by those who don't like this type of agile development then I guess they
> have to deal with it.
No, nothing about high frequency updates has anything to do with
whether or not you ignore discussion points. You'll probably ignore
this too. I don't know why I bother.
> Bullshit economics is the economics we have today. Any attempt to move away
> from it is a departure from bullshit.
You've essentially said nothing.
> I think that in general, you're good at finding information. But as far as
Thanks.
> your ability to reason... it's still very basic. I think you could spend
> less time collating info and more time understanding basic logic and how to
> reason. :-)
I've spent many words sending emails to you, and many well reasoned
discussions, if you want to comment specifically on those reasonings,
maybe you should go back and highlight the logical chain eh? Remember,
in an email marked December 2008, I pointed out to you that you were
completely switching discussions in a string of reasoning. I'm pretty
sure that's a nasty logical fallacy, and I had to call you out on it.
I'm getting tired of this. Please do not infect postscarcity/abundance
discussions.
marc fawzi
Feb 5, 2009, 7:29:15 PM2/5/09
to postsc...@googlegroups.com
Look inside of yourself for the answer to your issues.
Nathan Cravens
Feb 5, 2009, 8:46:23 PM2/5/09
to postsc...@googlegroups.com
Bryan Bishop:
Yes, but that doesn't mean you have to go around spamming lists with
bullshit economics. :-)
Flame bait!
Marc snagged it!
Marc Fawzi:
I think that in general, you're good at finding information. But as far as your ability to reason... it's still very basic. I think you could spend less time collating info and more time understanding basic logic and how to reason. :-)
ROFL! I'll comment by saying: "no comment."
I'm getting tired of this. Please do not infect postscarcity/abundance
discussions.
Flame bait!
These are trending toward negative evaluations of personhood! Oh my!
To conclude I will simply suggest to you this as I have before: Marc, be mindful of your words. Bryan, try not to provoke Marc. Nothingness is the most difficult to debate!
As far as I know, nothing can be generated infinitely.
That's scarcity. Begin a discussion list on scarcity and spam that. (FLAME BAIT!)
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