hInterest - an idea to bounce of my fellow pinkos
Eric Skiff
Advertisers and marketers are always collecting, interpreting, and compiling data in order to find out who we are and what we want. We're split into demographics and slices and groups in an attempt to match who we are with what we will purchase.
Yet, as a consumer, I'm often surprised by how wrong these ads are. I see endless ads for SUVs and Mini Hummers, things I will never, ever purchase.
Companies that get it really really right, like amazon for example, have gone to amazing lengths to know what I probably want and recommend things directly to me. Not only is this impressive, I actually appreciate it. I enjoy the amazon shopping experience because even the adspace is compelling, since it's filled with things I actually want to look at.
While Amazon is impressive, it's also terrifying in a way. I know that they've got gobs and gobs of data on me, including my home address, name, and CC info. Good old google has even more, and the recent AOL snafu reminds us all that that info is personally identifiable even if you haven't given them your name.
What if there were a way for me to make it easier for marketers (and advertising channels like blogs, adsense, etc) to cater their advertisements better to me, without having to know incredible amounts about me, or even who I am.
What we're proposing is a sort of microformat/browser-plugin duo. the microformat (tentatively called hInterest) will simply be a list of things I'm interested in. When I hit a site that wants to advertise to me, they can ask for my hInterest data, and if I chose to give it (this is where the browser plugin comes in - an interface which says "this site is requesting your hInterest info, what would you like to share?"), I'll see "better" ads. I'll also know that I'm being a slightly better patron of whatever ad-supported free service I'm using, since I'm helping them market to advertisers.
We're considering building the "base" interest list off the DMOZ tree for now, so that I can easily specify interest in a category as broad as the arts, or as narrow as the writings of Poe. Since it's a microformat, you'll also be able to hand-code it and add whatever you like in, and publish it wherever you like (think myspace, friendster, linkedin "interests" fields), if you so choose.
Sooooo, are we out of our minds? do you think people ever help advertisers tailor their ads to them? Would you ever consider using it either as an advertiser or content creator, or as a consumer? Could a pay-site or premium service be supplanted by "hInterest required"?
I'm always in favor of giving the user control - we know this data is already being guessed at, collected, and compiled, is it better to give it away for free, in exchange for knowing that the info is correct and being in control of what (and to whom) we give?
I'd appreciate all thoughts, rebuttals, and criticism!
-Eric Skiff
Holly Ward
fluctuate (or at least I'm always adding new ones), so I'd prefer to
set this up as a feed that the companies could subscribe to, in order
to get the latest up-to-the-minute information about what kind of ads
they should be showing me.
--
Holly Ward <ho...@wards.net>
http://annoyinglycheerful.com
Eric Skiff
I completely agree - I'm thinking about various ways we could implement exactly that, but something as simple as the browser plugin pointing sites to your hInterest published on your blog (or perhaps on a service somewhere, etc) or optually just pushing the whole list whenver asked...
As I've been thinking about this, I'm realizing that hInterest could be fun to build on for more than just advertisers. Imagine if google news/digg/etc new exactly what news stories you'd be interested in without you having to explicitly tell them...
Eric Skiff
Nonprofit web/comms/intranet worker, Podcaster, Pinko Marketer
Blog: http://glitchnyc.com
Podcast: http://alternativemusic.thepodcastnetwork.com - The Alternative Music Show
Silly Puppet Videos: http://feltuptv.com - Puppet Sketch Comedy!
Patrick Dodd
Sorry I dont have more time right now to comment, but I do think you are on to something.
Cheers,
Patrick Dodd
/pd
i.e. from Content to Users for driving ad's
For the sake of discussion, lets assume that a hinterest micro-format
is implemented. By adding micro-formats to a standard HTML web page
allows the machines to process HTML text and (hopefully) will provide
the ad engine the ability to dish out the ads which make it more
relevant to me ..correct ?
The issue here is two fold (at least in what I am thinking)
1) My user data (hinterest data) is locked onto the browser /PC that
I am using. What happens if I am using another browser on some other
machine ?? will my experience remain the same ? meaning that relevant
ad's are being dished out ? How can can this be accomplished ??
2) If my data is moved into a database so that its an engine, then
this data is placed in an Google/AOL/AMOZN hosted hInterest table. Why
would these corporations share this data ? This means the ad engine
will need to review know who is logged onto the NET to dish out ads .
This means ISP's and network owners will have to share the user-ID and
somehow this will need to be mapped to my Interest data so that I get
the relevant ads !
3) Somewhere there is a bridge which still needs to be built.. Not sure
how.. or if I am making sense or not . Maybe I am articulating the case
properly :(-
Dont get me wrong , the idea really holds water, but for some reason ,
I want the ads to be dished out with the same relevance factor , even
though I am on the web in a different country, reading some random web
content (in a broswer of my choice), and yet the ad's being dished
out is what I really want to see and maybe hear too !!
Somehow there is the need for a glue to keep my intention data
avialable, so that an engine knows its me on the web, without
comprimisng my privacy --
I am really interested in this topic.. and also welcome more ideas and
thoughts
Eric Skiff wrote:
> I had dinner last night with a good friend <http://marketanomaly.com/>who
> DMOZ<http://dmoz.org/>tree for now, so that I can easily specify
> interest in a category as broad
> as the arts, or as narrow as the writings of Poe. Since it's a microformat,
> you'll also be able to hand-code it and add whatever you like in, and
> publish it wherever you like (think myspace, friendster, linkedin
> "interests" fields), if you so choose.
>
> Sooooo, are we out of our minds? do you think people ever help advertisers
> tailor their ads to them? Would you ever consider using it either as an
> advertiser or content creator, or as a consumer? Could a pay-site or premium
> service be supplanted by "hInterest required"?
>
> I'm always in favor of giving the user control - we know this data is
> already being guessed at, collected, and compiled, is it better to give it
> away for free, in exchange for knowing that the info is correct and being in
> control of what (and to whom) we give?
>
> I'd appreciate all thoughts, rebuttals, and criticism!
> -Eric Skiff
>
> ------=_Part_111008_12609456.1155840433280
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> X-Google-AttachSize: 3475
>
> I had dinner last night with a <a href="http://marketanomaly.com/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">good friend </a>who
> frequently has self-admitted hair-brained schemes. I love talking with
> him because he often comes out with ideas I never would have thought
> of. We had a very
> good conversation and I think he might be on to something this time.<br>
> <br>
> Advertisers
> and marketers are always collecting, interpreting, and compiling data
> in order to find out who we are and what we want. We're split into
> demographics and slices and groups in an attempt to match who we are
> with what we will purchase.
> <br>
> <br>
> Yet, as a consumer, I'm often surprised by how wrong these ads
> are. I see endless ads for SUVs and Mini Hummers, things I will never,
> ever purchase. <br>
>
> <br>
>
> Companies that get it really really right, like amazon for example,
> have gone to amazing lengths to know what I probably want and recommend
> things directly to me. Not only is this impressive, I actually
> appreciate it. I enjoy the amazon shopping experience because even the
> adspace is compelling, since it's filled with things I actually want to
> look at.<br>
>
> <br>
>
> While Amazon is impressive, it's also terrifying in a way. I know that
> they've got gobs and gobs of data on me, including my home address,
> name, and CC info. Good old google has even more, and the recent AOL
> snafu reminds us all that that info is personally identifiable even if
> you haven't given them your name.<br>
>
> <br>
>
> What if there were a way for me to make it easier for marketers (and
> advertising channels like blogs, adsense, etc) to cater their
> advertisements better to me, without having to know incredible amounts
> about me, or even who I am. <br>
>
> <br>
> What we're proposing is a sort of microformat/browser-plugin duo. the
> microformat (tentatively called hInterest) will simply be a list of
> things I'm interested in. When I hit a site that wants to advertise to
> me, they can ask for my hInterest data, and if I chose to give it (this
> is where the browser plugin comes in - an interface which says "this
> site is requesting your hInterest info, what would you like to
> share?"), I'll
> see "better" ads. I'll also know that I'm being a slightly better
> patron of whatever ad-supported free service I'm using, since I'm
> helping them market to advertisers.<br>
>
> <br>
>
> We're considering building the "base" interest list off the <a href="http://dmoz.org/">DMOZ</a>
> tree for now, so that I can easily specify interest in a category as broad as
> the arts, or as narrow as the writings of Poe. Since it's a
> microformat, you'll also be able to hand-code it and add whatever you
> like in, and publish it wherever you like (think myspace, friendster,
> linkedin "interests" fields), if you so choose.<br>
>
> <br>
> Sooooo, are we out of our minds? do you think people ever help
> advertisers tailor their ads to them? Would you ever consider using it
> either as an advertiser or content creator, or as a consumer? Could a
> pay-site or premium service be supplanted by "hInterest required"?<br>
> <br>
> I'm always in favor of giving the user control - we know this data is
> already being guessed at, collected, and compiled, is it better to give
> it away for free, in exchange for knowing that the info is correct and
> being in control of what (and to whom) we give?<br>
> <br>
> I'd appreciate all thoughts, rebuttals, and criticism!<br>
> -Eric Skiff<br>
>
> ------=_Part_111008_12609456.1155840433280--
Eric Skiff
I need to do quite a bit of reading and getting up to speed on the current indentity and attention stuff and see where we overlap and where the ideas compliment eachother
Thanks for the links to Steve G's stuff, checking it out now
Eric Skiff
That's part of why I jumped on microformats as an option. If i publish my hInterest data at
http://glitchnyc.com/hInterest.html, I can easily point companies/apps/marketers to it, and they can scrape it and keep it if they want to, but they can't lock it up. I'm choosing to share it with whoever I want. That's the beauty :)
Now, for simplicity, the browser plugin could hold onto it for a single user install, but anywhere that hosts web content should be able to include your microformat, and the plugin should offer the option to point to the data, or respond with it itself.
/pd
http://googlewatch.eweek.com/blogs/google_watch/archive/2006/08/17/12494.aspx
Not sure how these vectors intersect with your current ideagram here
:)_
/pd
Eric Skiff wrote:
> My first reaction to this idea was exactly what you're thinking right now.
> If we keep this in a client-side app, it's going to be locked to a specific
> PC and app. If we keep in a marketer side database, it's going to get locked
> up by the marketer.
>
> That's part of why I jumped on microformats as an option. If i publish my
> hInterest data at
> http://glitchnyc.com/hInterest.html, I can easily point
> companies/apps/marketers to it, and they can scrape it and keep it if they
> want to, but they can't lock it up. I'm choosing to share it with
> whoever Iwant. That's the beauty :)
> ------=_Part_112030_19141931.1155843908959
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> X-Google-AttachSize: 3499
>
> My first reaction to this idea was exactly what you're thinking right now. If we keep this in a client-side app, it's going to be locked to a specific PC and app. If we keep in a marketer side database, it's going to get locked up by the marketer.
> <br><br>That's part of why I jumped on microformats as an option. If i publish my hInterest data at<br><a href="http://glitchnyc.com/hInterest.html">http://glitchnyc.com/hInterest.html</a>, I can easily point companies/apps/marketers to it, and they can scrape it and keep it if they want to, but they can't lock it up. I'm choosing to share it with whoever
> <span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-style: italic;">I</span></span> want. That's the beauty :)<br><br>Now, for simplicity, the browser plugin could hold onto it for a single user install, but anywhere that hosts web content should be able to include your microformat, and the plugin should offer the option to point to the data, or respond with it itself.
> <br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 8/17/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">/pd</b> <<a href="mailto:slas...@gmail.com">slas...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
> <br>The idea is great.. akin to turning the knob on the "AdSense" engine .<br>i.e. from Content to Users for driving ad's<br><br>For the sake of discussion, lets assume that a hinterest micro-format<br>is implemented. By adding micro-formats to a standard HTML web page
> <br>allows the machines to process HTML text and (hopefully) will provide<br>the ad engine the ability to dish out the ads which make it more<br>relevant to me ..correct ?<br><br>The issue here is two fold (at least in what I am thinking)
> <br><br>1) My user data (hinterest data) is locked onto the browser /PC that<br>I am using. What happens if I am using another browser on some other<br>machine ?? will my experience remain the same ? meaning that relevant
> <br>ad's are being dished out ? How can can this be accomplished ??<br><br>2) If my data is moved into a database so that its an engine, then<br>this data is placed in an Google/AOL/AMOZN hosted hInterest table. Why<br>
> would these corporations share this data ? This means the ad engine<br>will need to review know who is logged onto the NET to dish out ads .<br>This means ISP's and network owners will have to share the user-ID and<br>somehow this will need to be mapped to my Interest data so that I get
> <br>the relevant ads !<br><br>3) Somewhere there is a bridge which still needs to be built.. Not sure<br>how.. or if I am making sense or not . Maybe I am articulating the case<br>properly :(-<br><br>Dont get me wrong , the idea really holds water, but for some reason ,
> <br>I want the ads to be dished out with the same relevance factor , even<br>though I am on the web in a different country, reading some random web<br>content (in a broswer of my choice), and yet the ad's being dished<br>
> out is what I really want to see and maybe hear too !!<br><br>Somehow there is the need for a glue to keep my intention data<br>avialable, so that an engine knows its me on the web, without<br>comprimisng my privacy --<br>
> <br>I am really interested in this topic.. and also welcome more ideas and<br>thoughts<br><br></blockquote></div>
>
> ------=_Part_112030_19141931.1155843908959--
/pd
targeting the Amazon S3 app and merchanize of Amazon. This could also
be a killer tool for Amazon /marketers
Chandra Raghavan
advertising
>channels like blogs, adsense, etc) to cater their advertisements
better to me, without
>having to know incredible amounts about me, or even who I am.
This sounds really good. BUT,
> What we're proposing is a sort of microformat/browser-plugin duo. the microformat
> (tentatively called hInterest) will simply be a list of things I'm interested in.
> We're considering building the "base" interest list off the DMOZ tree for now, so that I
> can easily specify interest in a category as broad as the arts, or as narrow as the
> writings of Poe.
The user would have to create and maintain his/her hInterest list
isn't it? There are two problems I see with that:
1. The list is unlikely to be comprehensive because we are lazy (so we
might be missing out on some good ads).
2. The list is likely to be outdated because we are lazy (so we might
be seeing bad ads, but we don't care).
Of course, this is under the assumption that the list is manually
generated. If the list is updated based on, say, what you type in your
Google Searchbox in FF, then that is fine.
Actually, to make it really easy for users to update their list, you
could take whatever he/she types in the Google Searchbox and do a
Google Sets (http://labs.google.com/sets) query on it (anonymously).
As Google Sets gets better, you will get better keywords related to
query. You can then add these the hInterest list. This'll save the
user the trouble of updating the list.
However, Google sets isn't that good right now. This search:
http://labs.google.com/sets?hl=en&q1=books+by+enid+blyton&q2=&q3=&q4=&q5=&btn=Small+Set+%2815+items+or+fewer%29
returned no results. Anyway, if there is way of updating the list
automatically, that would be really cool.
--
And why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves up.
Adam Saunders
You are totally correct that this has to be very easy to use and as
automated as possible, if we want it to catch on. I hope the motivation
for us not to be lazy will be the ability to see more relevant content
in addition to ads on all websites that we visit. The Google sets tools
is interesting. I'll have to see about plugging into some of Google's
APIs.
-Adam
Greg
missing something. I can see how you would control the level of info
provided to marketers on site's you browse UNTIL you buy something.
Then hInterest data just gets rolled into all the credit card, address
data you give them. And if its on your blog, then wouldn't you have to
limit your personal info there in service to the goal of not revealing
too much personal info?
That said, I'm all for proactive efforts by people looking to control
their own ID data.
Eric Skiff
I've been contemplating various ways to grant and revoke permission to view my hInterest data, and if it would ever be worth the "complication cost" of locking it down so that I could stop a company from viewing it if they behaved poorly.
The keys for me are that:
- I can give out my interest data without giving out my personal data, at least until I make a purchase
- Even though the sites I already work with can keep that data, they can't keep it locked up. I'm free to give it to any site which can collect hInterest data.
- Right now, Amazon and google have my interest data locked away, and no one else can touch it
- Once they collect and save that interest data, it's fairly "dead" info. My interests will change and morph, and unless they're getting my updates, they're falling behind
- Credit to Chandra for reminding me that our interests and our 'attention' are indeed amorphous, changing things
- By declaring my interests, I'm much more likely to see relevant content (whether it's ads or true content), since it takes much of the guesswork out of equasion.
Adam Saunders
something about a customer, which they can use to more effectively
interact with that customer. However, attention data will always be
rough in comparison to what we the customers know about ourselves,
because it is only based on discrete actions and does not tell the
whole story. This is why websites, which use attention data to target
content and ads often get it so comically wrong.
The interesting thing is that the value of all this attention data
simply drops through the floor as soon as there is an effective way for
customers to easily share their interests directly with companies and
each other. It simply becomes unnecessary to track data and try to
intuit what we want, because we are stating very clearly what we want
and more importantly what we don't want.
If there is less value in tracking attention data, then companies will
not be so ravenous to track all user data. The argument that "we track
user data to deliver a better user experience" would loose a lot of
power. Ideally, this would put the control of personal data back in the
hands of users. My focus at the moment revolves around finding a way to
deliver a better user experience, but identity 2.0, privacy, etc. are
obviously major concerns.
I'm not sure how to deal with the connection between identity and
interest data during a transaction. I don't think that people concerned
about this would want to use hInterest, at least as it was initially
conceived. Maybe there is a way to insert privacy into this, but I
don't know the answer.
vix
when any of your artists (or maybe you set it to say "only artists in
this category" or "only artists of whom I have X tunes or more") comes
to the venues you specify? Does that exists? I just missed the Pogues
in NYC...!