Why not use the subway to beat traffic?
Jeff nor Lisa
by people heading to the city's sports complex. Delays of
an hour in the immediate area were reported.
While a number of sports fans use the subway, which stops close
by and offers frequent (every 5 minutes) express and local service,
most don't. I don't understand why.
It seems, given the traffic nightmare and high cost of parking
it would be easier to park at the other subway terminals or a
suburban train station and take the train/subway to the game.
Years ago the Penn Central and Pennsylvania railroads offered
direct service to the stadium complex during the biggest events
(such as the Army Navy Game). NJ Transit tried direct service
from Atlantic City a few times, but didn't continue it.
Art Clemons
>
> It seems, given the traffic nightmare and high cost of parking
> it would be easier to park at the other subway terminals or a
> suburban train station and take the train/subway to the game.
>
One problem is that the BSS doesn't have a lot of convenient parking
near a subway station. Another is many sports fans don't actually go
near the BSS except by accident, consider a Phillies fan with his
family coming over from Southern NJ, the only real option is PATCO,
then the BSS. For a family of four getting on at Lindenwold, and then
catching the BSS at Walnut-Locust, the fares approach the cost of
parking. It also sadly will probably take longer to get home using
public transit than driving even with congestions. When you consider
that much of SNJ isn't near PATCO, getting to public transit becomes
even more problematic.
Drivers have also gotten somewhat used to crowded driving, and if
they're sufficiently motivated to attend a game, it's just part of
getting there.
Thus despite the convenient subway, connections to Regional Rail, Patco
and even some NJ Transit buses, transit doesn't seem all that exciting.
Of course I'll bet that if there were no parking during a highly prized
game, folks would figure out how to ride Septa et al to get there and
do so with only typical new transit rider complaints.
Cheryl
:
: While a number of sports fans use the subway, which stops close
: by and offers frequent (every 5 minutes) express and local service,
: most don't. I don't understand why.
My husband and I have had a share in Flyers season tickets for several
years, and so go to about a dozen games a year. We also usually go to a
few Phillies games, and occasionally an Eagles game. We live in the Bucks
County suburbs, within walking distance of a Regional Rail station.
When we go to the sports complex, we almost always take the train and
subway (I work in Center City, and for weeknight games my husband takes
our local Regional Rail line in and meets me for dinner, then we take the
BSL from Center City to the sports complex). We're willing to do it, in
part because we're starting from different places and we meet in Center
City for a "dinner date," but here is a list of reasons less patient
people might not:
--SEPTA doesn't generally run Express trains for Flyers games, as for the
Phillies and Eagles. They have sometimes, but not consistently.
--There is no pedestrian-friendly way to get between the Pattison station
and the Wachovia Center. Especially after games, I have generally felt as
if I'm taking my life in my hands getting through the parking lots.
--The connections between the BSL and the Regional Rail are hardly
"convenient," as Art says in his followup. There is NO easy-to-find sign
directing passengers from the City Hall platform to Suburban Station. I'd
prefer to board at Market East, since my train goes in that direction, but
the concourse between City Hall and Market East (which is pretty
uninviting to begin with) has most of its exits closed by the time we are
heading for it.
Further, trains to where I need to go (the R3 West Trenton, FWIW) run
only once an hour after about 7PM. It's not unusual for us to have to
wait 45 minutes for a train, which can make for a pretty late night when I
have to get up for work the next day. And while we're okay for most
regular-season hockey games, for playoff games with the prospect of
multiple overtimes, as well as many football and baseball games (and
probably concerts, although I haven't attended one there in some time), we
run the chance of having to leave before the end of the event if we want
to make the last train home. Especially since the BSL doesn't offer any
schedule more specific than "Every 10 to 12 minutes," so you have to plan
on the possibility of a 15-minute wait on the subway platform to ensure a
connection, too.
--Both Suburban and Market East are pretty inhospitable places to spend 45
minutes at 10PM. Seating is uncomfortable (those block things in Market
East) and limited (during some phases of the renovation, we couldn't
find any real places to sit down, and used stairs). There are no vendors
open, or even vending machines, for a snack.
Whew. After writing all that out, I wonder why we even bother. (Answer:
because of the aforementioned opportunity to eat out in Center City; and
on the occasions we have driven, the time we've spent waiting to get out
of the parking lot means that we haven't saved a lot of time over transit,
even with a long wait for a connection.)
And I'm a daily rail commuter who knows a lot of things casual travelers
don't (tokens are cheaper than cash fares; for inexplicable reasons you
have to give the people in the booth exact change; the "Express" trains
stopping at City Hall during evening rush are going only one more stop,
so you'll have to get off and wait for the local anyway; there's a Wawa at
11th and Arch if you need to kill time and/or buy a snack or bottle of
water; which track the train will be on and which stairway to use to get
to it).
Plus, I have a Trailpass, so we do save some money using transit over our
own car, as many non-commuters would not.
Cheryl
James Andrews
>
> --SEPTA doesn't generally run Express trains for Flyers games, as for the
> Phillies and Eagles. They have sometimes, but not consistently.
do you really think this makes a difference? i mean, for people
coming from fern rock i could see that, but for people coming from
center city there are only six stops between city hall and the stadium.
Cheryl
On the way there, probably not. But on the way back after the game, when
everyone's leaving at once, Express Service could make some sense. More
for frequency than speed, though.
Karen Y Byrd
>Phila TV news announced traffic was serious jammed tonight
>by people heading to the city's sports complex. Delays of
>an hour in the immediate area were reported.
>
>While a number of sports fans use the subway, which stops close
>by and offers frequent (every 5 minutes) express and local service,
>most don't. I don't understand why.
>
>It seems, given the traffic nightmare and high cost of parking
>it would be easier to park at the other subway terminals or a
>suburban train station and take the train/subway to the game.
I don't understand it either. Although some folks have figured
out they can park in outlying Phila. neighborhoods(they park
in mine) and then take the subway. But only a minuscule
number of people do it.
The only explanation I can come up with is "fear and ignorance
of public transportation" is greater than the inconvenience
of driving. So they just do what what they know how to do:
drive.
KByrd
ctrabs74
schedule express trains. I've had times when I got to Pattison and
there was only one train waiting to depart. Long waits after games are
not unusual, especially when SEPTA - in its infinite wisdom - decides
to deadhead trains from Fern Rock instead of storing trains at
Pattison.
Rose
wrote:
Its the same with almost anything else. Given the choice between
using public transportation and going by car (if they have it) most
people would choose to go by car.
Rose
LaMott, PA
http://members.aol.com/Roseb44170/lamott.dir/lamott.htm
Stephen Sprunk
news:slrncijqj8...@pobox.upenn.edu...
> I don't understand it either. Although some folks have figured
> out they can park in outlying Phila. neighborhoods(they park
> in mine) and then take the subway. But only a minuscule
> number of people do it.
>
> The only explanation I can come up with is "fear and ignorance
> of public transportation" is greater than the inconvenience
> of driving. So they just do what what they know how to do:
> drive.
One thought is it's cheaper for four people headed to a game together to
park one car than to buy four round-trip transit tickets.
More likely is that most people simply don't take transit anywhere else, and
it just doesn't occur to them it might be available to sporting events.
One thing that's killing "event" riders in Dallas is that DART doesn't match
service to special events -- they'll run a single-car train every 20 minutes
to/from games because they're in "off peak" hours, even though there's
19,000 people to move. If more than 1% of attendees took the train, DART
would be (and often is) swamped.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "Those people who think they know everything
CCIE #3723 are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
K5SSS --Isaac Asimov
Art Clemons
> The only explanation I can come up with is "fear and ignorance
> of public transportation" is greater than the inconvenience
> of driving. So they just do what what they know how to do:
> drive.
I use public transit regularly instead of driving, I have no great love
for driving (hint folks, I probably have more miles behind the wheel
than most folks my age). I don't think it's quite as cut and dried as
you make it out to be. Although singletons driving to sporting events,
concerts and the like might well be better served by riding Septa, I'm
not sure that's true for let's say a family or group of friends going
together. If they carpool or all ride together, the waste of fuel is
less and there is less need for parking. Also, given the objections to
high school students on Septa, I'm not sure a bunch of drunk and rowdy
Eaglet fans would be an improvement either. Despite stopping the sales
of alcohol well before the end of most events, I'm sure that some folks
consume more than needed for inebriation while going home, that's one
of the reasons I won't walk through the parking lots after said events.
Let's take a prototypical family going to a game and riding let's say a
bus to Frankford or 69th Street, that's one fare + transfer for each
individual above the age of about five, so four fares roundtrip, or
eight times $2.60 or $20.80. Septa is also likely to be slower than
driving home, especially if a games runs late. Thus for that family,
not only does Septa require leaving earlier, but it also requires
getting home later and it's an expensive ride too. Septa could offer
more in the way of family fares during off-peak hours and the like but
it's still likely to be slower than driving unless you live within
walking distance of the Broad Street Subway.
ill
low level of service for return trips from events.
Septa can't increase service for the whole sytem to make it attractive
for the game.
Even if they moved Pattison closer I do not think you would see a
dramatic increase.
The Stadiums are located for easy car access (crazy but true, multiple
highways, bridge and local connections) and that car is cheaper when
filled than any mass transit.
The only way it would be feasabile is to have a complex specific "park
and ride" but then your just moving the traffic problem into someone
else's lap.
squiggle
Very interesting comments, given that I can provide an example of a
Stadium that was constructed with good public transport access. What
is more important is that it works!
The example is not in North Americal but I think that it is relevant
to this thread. It is in Wellington NZ.
When some railway land became vacant a 36,000 seat statium was built
on the land. There is very limited car parking. The design assumed
that most patrons would arrive by rail or bus or would walk from the
city centre. Note that the Stadium, being located next to Wellington's
railway station, is within walking distance of centre city hotels and
restaurants.
Although the population of the greater Wellington area is probably no
more than 300,000 it is served by a three line electrified heavy rail
system. The stadium was built on redundant railway land next to the
railway station. An elevated plaza was built next to the stadium
with ramps to the station platforms and bus parking areas. AFAIK about
a third of stadium patrons travel by train.
Tranz Metro (the train operator) sells a special return ticket to the
stadium costing $6NZ. Off-peak trains are lengthened and extras are
run. If the event is on a week day evening then the contra-peak trains
carry the crowds.
Six island platforms are allocated for the return trains. On either
side of one are placed two eight car EMUs for Upper Hutt, on the next
two for Paraparumu and on the third two for Johnsonville. Another
platform is used for diesel hauled serviced to Masterton.
When the event is finished the doors of one EMU on each platform are
opened. As soon as a train is full it is dispatched and the doors of
the other train opened. Meanwhile, a third train is entering the
platform from the yard.
With this procedure the crowds can be cleared very quickly. I have
attended events several times and after each I was home much earlier
than if I had taken my car. Add to that there is none of the stress of
driving in to and away from the event and finding and paying for
parking. Just walk or drive to my local station, get on the next
train, get off and walk from the platform to the Stadium. After the
event just reverse the process.
To be fair I should point out that Wellington's geography is suited to
rail commuter transport. Wellington City is a node surrounded by
hills. There are two valleys radiating from it, each with an
electrified line. In addition, there is a third line that wends its
way into the hills.
In addition, we were fortunate that when the Stadium was proposed
there were strong minded local politicians who were determined that
the facility be designed around public transpoert, not the car.
About two years ago I started writing a web site about trains to the
Stdium. It is still not finished but can be viewed at
http://trainweb.org/valleysignals/stadium/stadium.html
The stadium proves that if you provide convenient public transport
people will use it.
Joshua Dunfield
In article <tYudnbBlf9-...@comcast.com>,
Art Clemons <artcl...@aolSPAM.com> wrote:
[...]
>Let's take a prototypical family going to a game and riding let's say a
>bus to Frankford or 69th Street, that's one fare + transfer for each
>individual above the age of about five, so four fares roundtrip, or
>eight times $2.60 or $20.80.
The prototypical family going to a game knows how to use transfers, but
not tokens? Using tokens it's only $15.20.
-j.
Art Clemons
> The prototypical family going to a game knows how to use transfers,
> but not tokens? Using tokens it's only $15.20.
It's surprising how many folks don't know where tokens are sold or how
many folks pay full fare to travel on Septa. The other point to
consider is that tokens require some planning to obtain even if they're
cheaper. For that matter, a rider with a trailpass or transpass would
pay a reduced fare too. You'll note I did not mention either, I was
attempting to demonstrate how parking costs quicky approach the cost of
riding Septa in the minds of many. For that matter, how much is
parking now for most events, isn't it less than $15.20?
mrob...@haznat.wharton.upenn.edu
used more. However I would suggest that your example differs
significantly from here in Philly.
- There is not really limited car parking at the sports stadiums...it is
worse now that a few big parking lots are gone while they rebuild them.
- Driving is the mode of transportation in the U.S. by far, so its what
most people think of by default
- Most people going to the stadium in your example are coming from one
place; people going to the stadium in Philadelphia are coming from all
over. Even given the traffic problems it is often quicker for most people
than to take public transmit.
- You've got to admit that in most places in Philadelphia public transmit
is dirty and smelly.
In phl.transportation squiggle <squi...@notmail.com> wrote:
: on the land. There is very limited car parking. The design assumed
Art Clemons
> - You've got to admit that in most places in Philadelphia public
> transmit is dirty and smelly.
>
You must not ride public transit a lot. While musty smells from water
are common, Septa's tunnels smell better than some in Boston, Chicago
or NYC. Its rolling stock seems to be cleaned at least once a day and
the stations at least get swept and mopped semi-regularly. Admittedly,
the stations could use some method of exhausting hot air in the summer,
but humidity is a common problem with almost any underground system.
Ever smelled commuters in Paris on a hot day?
Matthew Mitchell
<mrob...@haznat.wharton.upenn.edu> wrote:
>- You've got to admit that in most places in Philadelphia public transmit
>is dirty and smelly.
Have you _ever_ been on the subway?
It's no more dirty than the average parking lot.
mrob...@haznat.wharton.upenn.edu
I ride frequently and I guess it depends on which parking lot you're talking about.
See my previous post for more info...
: On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 17:20:44 +0000 (UTC),