Re: Logo considerations - 3 logos needed
Timothy S. Nelson
> I like the "Camelia" it's colourful, fun - it even has an embedded, sideways reference to a
> "Camel".
>
> But IMHO there is a need for three logos:
I'm not so sure
> 1. Combined Parrot + Rakudo
[snip]
> 2. Rakudo
My understanding was that Rakudo only runs on top of Parrot. Either
way, I don't see why we need a logo for Parrot + Rakudo, any more than we need
separate logos for Perl on Linux and Perl on Windows.
Or, to look at it a different way, I thought the definition of Rakudo
*is* that it's "Perl 6 on Parrot".
Additionally, while you recommended Camelia for Rakudo, my
understanding was that Larry was recommending it for Perl 6 rather than
Rakudo.
So, I guess I see a need for 3 logos as well, but one of them is
already decided:
1. Parrot needs and already has a logo (already decided)
2. "Perl 6" needs a logo. My current vote for this is for Camelia. When
I say "Perl 6" here, I'm including the specs, the test suite, STD.pm,
and any Perl 6 implementations.
3. Rakudo needs a logo. My current vote would be for some combination of
Camelia (or whatever we choose as the Perl6 logo) and the Parrot logo.
Maybe you're thinking the same thing as me, and using different words.
Or maybe not. Anyway, I think something here needs clarification for at least
one of us.
HTH,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Name: Tim Nelson | Because the Creator is, |
| E-mail: way...@wayland.id.au | I am |
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Nigel Hamilton
reference to a "Camel".
But IMHO there is a need for three logos:
1. Combined Parrot + Rakudo
I like the suggestion of having cartoon "speech bubbles" around the Parrot
that contain favicons of the language icons (e.g., Python, Ruby). This means
the Rakudo icon needs to be distinctive at favicon size - but that should be
a design objective anyway.
(Parrot with speech bubbles in favicon halo)++
2. Rakudo
Camelia is colourful, fun, can look distinctive at favicon size and may act
as a friendly mascot - and, unlike a camel, it does not spit or smell[1].
Camelia++
3. "Perl6 = the test suite"
The current plan is that Perl6 will not have a single implementation but
that the test suite is shared by implementations. I think there is a need
for a "Perl6 = test suite" device - ideally it should be possible to
visually incorporate it with the implementation logos (e.g., Camelia, Pugs,
SMOP etc) - this means it should be graphically *very* simple.
This sub-device could capture the distinctiveness of Perl6. Ideas include:
[ ] - meta-operator "brackets" - [ ] - these could surround the
implementation logos
- test suite as a
shield against bugs, strength etc
- hmm, not sure,
Camelia could look trapped at 16x16?
* - whatever - a whatever star could be
placed on Camelia's wings
- a dog collar on the
Pug?
<<>> - a hyper pattern on
Camelia's wings?
\* *\ - capture whatever? end
comment.
There is rich visual expressiveness and distinctiveness in Perl6 operators -
not to mention functionality - it would be a shame not to use these
iconically - I think the "Perl6 + Test Suite" logo has a chance to do this.
If it stays *really simple* the implementation logos can embed it too.
What is a Perl6 operator that sums up Perl6 and looks visually distinctive?
- this could form the basis of the "Perl6 + Test Suite" device - which in
turn could be incorporated by implementation logos? ...
Taken together - these three devices (Parrot favicon speech bubbles, Rakudo
Camelia and Perl6 = Test Suite[?]) could "interlock" and help visually stick
the meme complex together ... it's exciting.
Nige
[1] and best of all is not confusing with other registered trademarks.
Larry++
Mark J. Reed
specification, a reference parser, a test suite, and perhaps a
reference setting implementation. All of the things about the
language that are not tied to a particular implementation are part of
"Perl 6".
Rakudo is a particular implementation of Perl 6 using Parrot. While
it is a separate project from both Perl 6 and Parrot, it is intimately
tied to both, and I think its logo should reflect that. I don't see
much point in having separate logos for "Rakudo on Parrot" and "Rakudo
without Parrot". I mean, I suppose much of the frontend work could be
ported to a different backend, but would that still be considered
Rakudo?
(Incidentally, the "Rakudo" name arose while I wasn't really paying
attention to Parrot developments, and I missed its advent. So let me
a-year-belatedly say that I find it a very nice coinage. Besides
getting the camel and the idea of The Perl Way in there, and of course
the "perl = paradise" implication is a nice touch, I like that if you
squint at it sideways you can almost see the word "roku", which is
Japanese for "six".)
Patrick R. Michaud
> Rakudo is a particular implementation of Perl 6 using Parrot. While
> it is a separate project from both Perl 6 and Parrot, it is intimately
> tied to both, and I think its logo should reflect that. I don't see
> much point in having separate logos for "Rakudo on Parrot" and "Rakudo
> without Parrot". I mean, I suppose much of the frontend work could be
> ported to a different backend, but would that still be considered
> Rakudo?
I don't know that I consider Rakudo Perl to be forever tied to Parrot.
If we come up with other backends, I'd still consider the result
"Rakudo"; similar to how "Pugs" referred to all of the various backends
available to it and not just the Haskell backend.
So from that perspective, I don't know that the Rakudo logo ought
to be strongly tied to Parrot, any more than we tie the Parrot logo
to the various GNU tools used to build it.
Pm
Larry Wall
: On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 22:45 +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
: > Additionally, while you recommended Camelia for Rakudo, my
: > Rakudo.
This is correct. Patrick has the final say on Rakudo's logo.
: I think he was offering it as an example and a suggestion. The perl6
: community might favor it out of respect for Larry but I think he went
: out of his way to make it clear that it's the kind of thing he would
: like.
Yes, I went out of my way to indicate that my mind was still open
(a little). However, if you will allow an old geezer to be a wee bit
testy, I would also like to make it clear that I'm a just a little
tired of these "rounds"; more importantly, that I've been mulling
over this particular issue for many years. I didn't just come up
with that list of requirements off the cuff. I'm old enough to have
lots of stuff on my cuff as well.
Also, it's probably mere hubris, but I already consider myself to be a
"professional designer". I know how to take into account the various
factors that a professional designer would take into account when
designing yet another highly original logo that somehow ends up looking
just like every other logo out there. You'll notice that "sterility"
is not on my list of requirements. It was a deliberate omission.
So let me summarize the requirements into a meta-requirement:
The new logo must make Larry at least as happy as Camelia does.
That is the extent to which my mind is still open... :-)
Larry
Larry Wall
: On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 09:39 -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
: > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 08:54:34AM -0400, Guy Hulbert wrote:
: > : On Wed, 2009-25-03 at 22:45 +1100, Timothy S. Nelson wrote:
: > : > Additionally, while you recommended Camelia for Rakudo, my
: > : > understanding was that Larry was recommending it for Perl 6 rather than
: > : > Rakudo.
: >
: > This is correct. Patrick has the final say on Rakudo's logo.
:
: http://p6.hpfamily.net/rakudo-0.png
I like Camelia at that size, though the left-right balance is off in a couple ways.
: > So let me summarize the requirements into a meta-requirement:
: >
: > The new logo must make Larry at least as happy as Camelia does.
:
: If anyone likes this and Larry is happy, I have some in-house artists
: with gimp skills far superior to my own who might be persuaded to work
: on it tonight.
Well, I don't have to be persuaded, and I'm my own in-house artist
(well, I have Geneva too, who's just as good at that as I am--okay,
maybe she's better--and I also bummed a certain amount of gimp advice
from Lewis). So anyway, I thought I'd take a crack at a 16x16 Camelia.
I think this does tolerable fair as a favicon:
http://www.wall.org/~larry/cameliafav.ico
To be honest, I thought I'd have to simplify her a lot more than turned
out to be necessary. Hand-crafted anti-aliasing is your friend. :)
Anyway, managed to squeeze in the black wings with the P and the 6,
the buggy eyes, the antennae, the legs (sort of) and, of course, the
Mona Lisa smirk. More importantly, the outline still very much says
"butterfly" against most backgrounds, and the face is large enough
to still have some personality.
Larry
Matthew Wilson
> http://www.wall.org/~larry/cameliafav.ico<http://www.wall.org/%7Elarry/cameliafav.ico>
>
> out to be necessary. Hand-crafted anti-aliasing is your friend. :)
> Larry
>
firefox at 3025%: cameliafav.ico all blown up. [groan]