Kevin Tew wrote:
> Sam,

> Just wondering what the status is on python/parrot/pirate/pyrate.

> These both look outdated.
> http://www.intertwingly.net/stories/2004/10/05/pyrate.zip
> http://pirate.versionhost.com/viewcvs.cgi/pirate/

> Is there a up to date cvs repo?

> Can we get this code checked into the parrot svn repo?

Kevin Tew wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:

>> Kevin Tew wrote:

>>> Sam,

>>> Just wondering what the status is on python/parrot/pirate/pyrate.

>>> These both look outdated.
>>> http://www.intertwingly.net/stories/2004/10/05/pyrate.zip
>>> http://pirate.versionhost.com/viewcvs.cgi/pirate/

>> I haven't looked at it for a few months now.  I do plan to revisit it
>> enough to get the Pie-thon tests completed by the time of OSCON (in
>> August).

>>> Is there a up to date cvs repo?

>> http://pirate.tangentcode.com/

>>> Can we get this code checked into the parrot svn repo?

>> Unfortunately, no.  Much of this code is copyright Michal Wallace.

>> The good news is that the "good stuff" is in the parrot repo already.
>> What is left - a simple translator - can and should, IMHO, be recoded
>> into Perl6 once enough of that is running.

>> - Sam Ruby

> So why won't Michal Wallace sign over the copyright?

> Cool I did notice all the python pmcs.
> By translator  I assume you mean a interpreter/compiler to parrot byte
> code.

> Why would you do it in Perl6, why not self hosted in python?

> I'm thinking of toying around with python and just want to leverage all
> the previous work.

> Looks like I'll start with a translator and some new test cases so they
> can be contributed copyright free.

Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:

> ...  The overwhelming majority of that work
> is in getting the PMCs right.

> ... I have not kept up with the
> latest Parrot changes.

> - Sam Ruby

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Sam Ruby wrote:
> [I hope you don't mind me putting this back on the list - I would prefer that
> everybody who is interested can follow along and/or participate]

> Kevin Tew wrote:
>> Sam Ruby wrote:

>>> Kevin Tew wrote:

>>>> Sam,

>>>> Just wondering what the status is on python/parrot/pirate/pyrate.

>>>> These both look outdated.
>>>> http://www.intertwingly.net/stories/2004/10/05/pyrate.zip
>>>> http://pirate.versionhost.com/viewcvs.cgi/pirate/

>>> I haven't looked at it for a few months now.  I do plan to revisit it
>>> enough to get the Pie-thon tests completed by the time of OSCON (in
>>> August).

>>>> Is there a up to date cvs repo?

>>> http://pirate.tangentcode.com/

>>>> Can we get this code checked into the parrot svn repo?

>>> Unfortunately, no.  Much of this code is copyright Michal Wallace.

>>> The good news is that the "good stuff" is in the parrot repo already. What
>>> is left - a simple translator - can and should, IMHO, be recoded into
>>> Perl6 once enough of that is running.

>>> - Sam Ruby

>> So why won't Michal Wallace sign over the copyright?

> I talked to Michal briefly about this a while back.  My impression was that
> he wanted to sign over the copyright to the Python foundation. Which makes a
> bit of sense -

> the goal of having everything run on a single runtime does
> not necessarily imply that everything has to be owned by a
> single organization and put into a single repository.

> My own opinions is that Michal thinks too much.  ;-)

> My impression is that everybody here is reasonable, and if
> it made sense for further development to be transferred to
> another organization, then some reasonable arrangement
> would be made.

> Also, I believe that much of the initial work is throwaway
> work anyway.  Build one to throw away, and all that.

>> Cool I did notice all the python pmcs.  By translator I
>> assume you mean a interpreter/compiler to parrot byte
>> code.

> At the moment, it is to Python to IMC, but eventually
> going directly to bytecode would be a good idea.

>> Why would you do it in Perl6, why not self hosted in python?

> Self hosted in Python is a good idea, once it can be bootstrapped.

> Overview of the current process:

> 1) Leverage python's "compiler" class to convert source to AST
> 2) Pirate converts AST to IMC
> 3) Parrot converts IMC to bytecode

>> I'm thinking of toying around with python and just want
>> to leverage all the previous work.

> Excellent.  In the meantime, if you are interested in getting commit access
> to the Pirate repository, I'm confident that that can be arranged.

> My feeling, for what it is worth, the translator is known
> to be a solvable problem.  Determining the proper mapping
> of Python semantics to Parrot is the research problem.
> The overwhelming majority of that work is in getting the
> PMCs right.  Not having to worry about the syntax of
> python or the conversion to bytecodes allows one to focus
> on just that aspect of the problem.

>> Looks like I'll start with a translator and some new test
>> cases so they can be contributed copyright free.

> There also are a fair amount of python test cases in the
> parrot repository.  parrot/languages/python/*/*.t and
> t/dynclass/python/*.t.

> When I last looked, these were not complete.  Undoubtably,
> there is likely to be some minor regressions as I have not
> kept up with the latest Parrot changes.  If past history
> is any guide, this is not much of a problem.

Michal wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Sam Ruby wrote:

>> [I hope you don't mind me putting this back on the list - I would
>> prefer that everybody who is interested can follow along and/or
>> participate]

>> Kevin Tew wrote:

>>> Sam Ruby wrote:

> Hey guys,

> I didn't see this until just now.

>>>> Kevin Tew wrote:

>>>>> Sam,

>>>>> Just wondering what the status is on python/parrot/pirate/pyrate.

>>>>> These both look outdated.
>>>>> http://www.intertwingly.net/stories/2004/10/05/pyrate.zip
>>>>> http://pirate.versionhost.com/viewcvs.cgi/pirate/

>>>> I haven't looked at it for a few months now.  I do plan to revisit
>>>> it enough to get the Pie-thon tests completed by the time of OSCON
>>>> (in August).

> Sam, are you still interested in this?

>>>>> Is there a up to date cvs repo?

>>>> http://pirate.tangentcode.com/

>>>>> Can we get this code checked into the parrot svn repo?

>>>> Unfortunately, no.  Much of this code is copyright Michal Wallace.

>>>> The good news is that the "good stuff" is in the parrot repo
>>>> already. What is left - a simple translator - can and should, IMHO,
>>>> be recoded into Perl6 once enough of that is running.

>>>> - Sam Ruby

>>> So why won't Michal Wallace sign over the copyright?

>> I talked to Michal briefly about this a while back.  My impression was
>> that he wanted to sign over the copyright to the Python foundation.
>> Which makes a bit of sense -

> Pirate is based on code created by Andrew Kuchling and the copyright
> on that work already belongs to the Python foundation.

> Mostly I think pirate is just a different project from parrot and I
> don't want to hand over control of which patches to apply, etc. So far,
> I've never rejected a patch or turned down anyone for cvs access, but
> I'd like to reserve the right. (Also, Dan and the parrot team had other
> ideas about how to implement python.)

>> the goal of having everything run on a single runtime does
>> not necessarily imply that everything has to be owned by a
>> single organization and put into a single repository.

> Yes. That was the other main idea. I was hoping that we could leverage
> the objects that the python team had already created.

> Do PMC's still have to be compiled inside the parrot source
> tree? To me, the problem is that the PMC's are in the parrot
> tree, not that the compiler isn't in there with it.

>> My own opinions is that Michal thinks too much.  ;-)

> This is almost certainly true. :)

>> My impression is that everybody here is reasonable, and if
>> it made sense for further development to be transferred to
>> another organization, then some reasonable arrangement
>> would be made.

> I hope this is true, too. :)

>> Also, I believe that much of the initial work is throwaway
>> work anyway.  Build one to throw away, and all that.

> I've never really bought that logic. :) It works, and (especially
> after your last batch of refactorings) the code is pretty clean.
> I would like to see the emitter code separated out into a builder
> object though.

>>> Cool I did notice all the python pmcs.  By translator I
>>> assume you mean a interpreter/compiler to parrot byte
>>> code.

>> At the moment, it is to Python to IMC, but eventually
>> going directly to bytecode would be a good idea.

> That's fine with me, as long as parrots imc compiler does the
> work. :)

>>> Why would you do it in Perl6, why not self hosted in python?

>> Self hosted in Python is a good idea, once it can be bootstrapped.

> I'm not sure what Kevin meant by self hosted but I've been
> thinking about this lately, and what we can do today is creating a
> back-end for the compiler that emits simplified
> python code in a way that would give us things like continuations
> (though with some loss of speed) without the need to duplicate the
> python library.

>> Overview of the current process:

>> 1) Leverage python's "compiler" class to convert source to AST
>> 2) Pirate converts AST to IMC
>> 3) Parrot converts IMC to bytecode

>>> I'm thinking of toying around with python and just want
>>> to leverage all the previous work.

>> Excellent.  In the meantime, if you are interested in getting commit
>> access to the Pirate repository, I'm confident that that can be arranged.

> Sure. Kevin, if you're still interested let me know.

>> My feeling, for what it is worth, the translator is known
>> to be a solvable problem.  Determining the proper mapping
>> of Python semantics to Parrot is the research problem.
>> The overwhelming majority of that work is in getting the
>> PMCs right.  Not having to worry about the syntax of
>> python or the conversion to bytecodes allows one to focus
>> on just that aspect of the problem.

> You're absolutely right.

> I finally had a chance to look into what you've done, both in the
> compiler and on the PMC: I'm impressed.

> To me the main concern is making the PMC's compatable (or at least
> similar to) python's C API. This is why I originally suggested wrapping
> the python library. I would like to be able to run things like pygame,
> numeric, wxpython, and extensions written with pyrex.

> I agree with your point about optimizing the objects for parrot. I just
> still wish we had a generic catch-all wrapper for anything we haven't
> hand-coded yet.

>>> Looks like I'll start with a translator and some new test
>>> cases so they can be contributed copyright free.

> Kevin: did you actually do this? There would certainly be
> a copyright on your contribution, it would just be owned by
> the perl group instead of the python group. Is that your only
> reason for wanting to redo all our work? If possible, I'd much
> rather have you on the pirate team. Can we discuss this?

>> There also are a fair amount of python test cases in the
>> parrot repository.  parrot/languages/python/*/*.t and
>> t/dynclass/python/*.t.

>> When I last looked, these were not complete.  Undoubtably,
>> there is likely to be some minor regressions as I have not
>> kept up with the latest Parrot changes.  If past history
>> is any guide, this is not much of a problem.

> I ran the tests off the latest parrot from subversion.
> Only three tests are failing, and they all seem to involve
> booleans:

>    set_bool() not implemented in class 'PyBoolean'

> Everything else works great.

On Sun, 15 May 2005, Kevin Tew wrote:
> I've taken the code from
> http://www.intertwingly.net/stories/2004/10/05/pyrate.zip,
> which I assume to be Sam's code.  It was basically stubs
> with a few AST nodes implemented when I started with it.

> And am working to generate a python to pir
> translator/compiler that uses Sam's python pmc's I've
> attached the source as it stands now.  I'm just an
> aspiring parrot hacker.  I'm sure that there are a lot of
> things I'm doing wrong or inefficiently.  I'm looking for
> feedback and suggestions for improvement.  Please comment.

> I want to get my patches on top of Sam's initial work
> imported into the parrot SVN tree.

> I believe that having the python compiler code in parrots
> svn tree is imperative to build a python/parrot community.

> A python compiler in the parrot tree will lead to more
> widespread exposure to other parrot developers, increased
> peer review, testing by more people on a greater variety
> of platforms, etc.

> Michal could you expound on your thoughts here, they sound interesting.
>   I'm not sure what Kevin meant by self hosted but I've
>   been thinking about this lately, and what we can do
>   today is creating a back-end for the compiler that
>   emits simplified python code in a way that would give us
>   things like continuations (though with some loss of
>   speed) without the need to duplicate the python library.

> I meant a python to pir translator/compiler written in python.

> I've looked at the PyPy project.  They are doing cool
> stuff.  I would eventually like to use their work to emit
> optimized pir for python, but they still have work to do.