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Message-ID: <11EC641DC6AD4104888FADF00EDE2092@teddy>
To: "Brandon McCaig" <bamcc...@gmail.com>,
	"Raymond Wan" <r....@aist.go.jp>
Cc: <beginn...@perl.org>
References: <201012272056.21583.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <4D1AE548.30805@gmail.com> <AANLkTi=6wXzj1Rxoe9wTegPkobAR9a0w+TNea=cDT6fT@mail.gmail.com> <201012301252.43631.shlomif@iglu.org.il> <AANLkTik2rhtdc2jaUwkxKX4ri0-J1QF3ysNO534a+e6i@mail.gmail.com> <87pqsiin1m.fsf@quad.sysarch.com> <AANLkTimOHNgvd6USzoC76aXsg09okO5gX2J-+BXPVtkm@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTimjvWRNzVof8_mxP1QiF5CLYTbCtzxR2+dBt...@mail.gmail.com> <DF8D41A1-9DD0-4C72-99AE-21193AD1D...@pobox.com> <14D9E66333A04CB389429E5B43D6805E@teddy> <8D283EBC-C7F8-4266-A797-C269597D7...@pobox.com> <4D1E310B.8020...@gmail.com> <AANLkTinrbOef-7Y6PdWDHOGxZ3WQNu4MDRjnBU4__...@mail.gmail.com> <4D1F3E53.7020...@gmail.com> <81687DD8362148CE902BBC1909320FE3@teddy> <AANLkTi=dEHzDXJgZB1HNxUYUKtJ+1zWS230ij9se6...@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTikMeVCz85CUTzYZ9AC=MTPJmj=HX381LY+kP...@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] The Happy, Happy, Feel Good Thread (WAS: New Document: "How to Start Contributing to or Using Open Source Software")
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:17:37 +0200
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From: orasn...@gmail.com ("Octavian Rasnita")
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From: "Brandon McCaig" <bamcc...@gmail.com>
On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Raymond Wan <r....@aist.go.jp> wrote:
> An extension to your reasoning is that there aren't just two groups of
> users on this list -- advanced and newbies -- but multiple levels.
> Beginners who don't follow the advanced programmers' rules may have
> questions that intermediate programmers can answer who aren't as
> nit-picky about the rules. Then, advanced programmers can direct
> their attention to more immediate questions by people who write in a
> way that they like and everyone is happy. How the question is asked
> implicitly says who (which group) the question is for...
>
> Core Perl experts that think it's just them and beginners on the list
> "risk" scaring people in the middle groups away, further making the
> problem worse [for them]. No??

> The mailing list rules are about being fair to everyone.=20

Exactly, but they are not.

> If you bottom post, quoting only what is relevant, then everyone can =
easily read
> through the thread without having to jump large sections of text,=20

If everyone top-post, nobody need to jump any portion of text.
Yes, I know that false reason that maybe somebody doesn't remember about =
the thread, that maybe he is subscribed to more mailing lists, but for =
this problem there are solutions, like to define rules in the mail =
client and redirect the messages from a mailing list to a special =
folder.
If somebody reads a message on the current thread, do you think that he =
might not remember what is this discussion about?

> or downloading the same data numerous times for no reason. Not =
everybody
> has a high speed broadband connection and not everybody reads their
> mail from a Web browser or GUI client.=20

This is another false reason. Don't tell us that someone is usually =
reading email messages using telnet to the port 110 of his POP3 server =
in a command line...
And it doesn't matter if the message is top-posted or bottom-posted for =
the size of the message. The old messages need to be trimmed. Yes, =
that's the solution, but not the bottom-post.

> I find the rules make a lot of sense and challenging them is just =
lazy, not logical.=20

We can also say that it is lazy to not wait until you download that =
unneeded data, but it is not fair. Fair is to read the messages as easy =
as possible, not with a bigger effort just because an old rule says =
that.

> It doesn't even require much effort to bottom post properly so I find =
this argument
> extremely childish.=20

Can yougive some hints about how to bottom-post as easy as top-posting =
when using Outlook Express?
(But please don't tell me that another eventually less used email client =
that doesn't have other more important features is better and that I =
need to change it.)

> Looking for software solutions on the Web I
> encounter a lot of poorly designed message boards where everybody just
> clicks on a 'quote' button. You end up with a horrible mess where the
> original message is copied n times throughout the thread, the second
> message n - 1 times, etc. It's just ugly and makes it very difficult
> to read.=20

I am a member of a mailing list and I don't care about forums. I don't =
like the forums because they are much hard accessible.
If the messages from the mailing list are stored and presented on the =
web as a forum this is a secondary scope of a mailing list. The most =
important scope is to be used as easy as possible.

> practices weren't used. I pretty much won't participate on mailing
> lists that don't enforce such rules.=20

Ok, if you don't care about the other members' problems due to these =
rules, go ahead and unsubscribe if you don't like it.
Or if you are so important for the mailing list and you can impose a =
rule that makes other members' life harder, say your opinion clearly and =
show that you don't care about those members. I love to hear that.

> It's just too much work to try.

Much work? For what? To be able to read the new message immediately =
without needing to jump over a lot of text you already read?
For those who need to jump over a lot of same and same messages just to =
be able to read a line or two of the new message involves much more =
work.

Trimming is OK, but bottom-posting is not, and those who like or care =
about forums should use forums, not mailing lists.

> As for the experienced members correcting coding style, I really
> appreciate it. It helps you to learn how to write clean Perl a lot
> faster than if you struggle with it yourself. And not only cleaner
> looking code, but cleaner logic too. Helps you to spot errors that you
> wouldn't otherwise have spotted, etc. Reading this list, and reading
> those corrections, has quickly helped me to learn Perl and become
> comfortable both reading and writing Perl code. You don't always have
> to agree with the advice you're given, but it certainly doesn't hurt
> to be given it.


Yes you are right, but it depends how that correction is made.

If I ask if the code=20
$x=3D$y+$z;
is correct, it is very OK to be answered that yes, it is OK, but that it =
be helpful to add other things like
use strict;
maybe even
use warnings;
and that it is also nice to use spaces between vars and operators and =
that it will need to declare the variables using
my $x =3D $y + $z;
...

But is not OK to be first told that I need to use strict and warnings, =
or that I need to add "my" or spaces, because maybe I already know these =
things and use them in my code, but I stripped them down on the mailing =
list because I am interested only in the code.
The corrections are OK because other beginners will read them and they =
will be very helpful, but it is not OK to start the messages with them =
making the person who asked to feel stupid.

Octavian