Message from discussion The Happy, Happy, Feel Good Thread (WAS: New Document: "How to Start Contributing to or Using Open Source Software")
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To: "Brandon McCaig" <bamcc...@gmail.com>,
"Raymond Wan" <r....@aist.go.jp>
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Subject: Re: [OT] The Happy, Happy, Feel Good Thread (WAS: New Document: "How to Start Contributing to or Using Open Source Software")
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:17:37 +0200
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From: orasn...@gmail.com ("Octavian Rasnita")
From: "Brandon McCaig" <bamcc...@gmail.com>
On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Raymond Wan <r....@aist.go.jp> wrote:
> An extension to your reasoning is that there aren't just two groups of
> users on this list -- advanced and newbies -- but multiple levels.
> Beginners who don't follow the advanced programmers' rules may have
> questions that intermediate programmers can answer who aren't as
> nit-picky about the rules. Then, advanced programmers can direct
> their attention to more immediate questions by people who write in a
> way that they like and everyone is happy. How the question is asked
> implicitly says who (which group) the question is for...
> Core Perl experts that think it's just them and beginners on the list
> "risk" scaring people in the middle groups away, further making the
> problem worse [for them]. No??
> The mailing list rules are about being fair to everyone.=20
Exactly, but they are not.
> If you bottom post, quoting only what is relevant, then everyone can =
> through the thread without having to jump large sections of text,=20
If everyone top-post, nobody need to jump any portion of text.
Yes, I know that false reason that maybe somebody doesn't remember about =
the thread, that maybe he is subscribed to more mailing lists, but for =
this problem there are solutions, like to define rules in the mail =
client and redirect the messages from a mailing list to a special =
If somebody reads a message on the current thread, do you think that he =
might not remember what is this discussion about?
> or downloading the same data numerous times for no reason. Not =
> has a high speed broadband connection and not everybody reads their
> mail from a Web browser or GUI client.=20
This is another false reason. Don't tell us that someone is usually =
reading email messages using telnet to the port 110 of his POP3 server =
in a command line...
And it doesn't matter if the message is top-posted or bottom-posted for =
the size of the message. The old messages need to be trimmed. Yes, =
that's the solution, but not the bottom-post.
> I find the rules make a lot of sense and challenging them is just =
lazy, not logical.=20
We can also say that it is lazy to not wait until you download that =
unneeded data, but it is not fair. Fair is to read the messages as easy =
as possible, not with a bigger effort just because an old rule says =
> It doesn't even require much effort to bottom post properly so I find =
> extremely childish.=20
Can yougive some hints about how to bottom-post as easy as top-posting =
when using Outlook Express?
(But please don't tell me that another eventually less used email client =
that doesn't have other more important features is better and that I =
need to change it.)
> Looking for software solutions on the Web I
> encounter a lot of poorly designed message boards where everybody just
> clicks on a 'quote' button. You end up with a horrible mess where the
> original message is copied n times throughout the thread, the second
> message n - 1 times, etc. It's just ugly and makes it very difficult
> to read.=20
I am a member of a mailing list and I don't care about forums. I don't =
like the forums because they are much hard accessible.
If the messages from the mailing list are stored and presented on the =
web as a forum this is a secondary scope of a mailing list. The most =
important scope is to be used as easy as possible.
> practices weren't used. I pretty much won't participate on mailing
> lists that don't enforce such rules.=20
Ok, if you don't care about the other members' problems due to these =
rules, go ahead and unsubscribe if you don't like it.
Or if you are so important for the mailing list and you can impose a =
rule that makes other members' life harder, say your opinion clearly and =
show that you don't care about those members. I love to hear that.
> It's just too much work to try.
Much work? For what? To be able to read the new message immediately =
without needing to jump over a lot of text you already read?
For those who need to jump over a lot of same and same messages just to =
be able to read a line or two of the new message involves much more =
Trimming is OK, but bottom-posting is not, and those who like or care =
about forums should use forums, not mailing lists.
> As for the experienced members correcting coding style, I really
> appreciate it. It helps you to learn how to write clean Perl a lot
> faster than if you struggle with it yourself. And not only cleaner
> looking code, but cleaner logic too. Helps you to spot errors that you
> wouldn't otherwise have spotted, etc. Reading this list, and reading
> those corrections, has quickly helped me to learn Perl and become
> comfortable both reading and writing Perl code. You don't always have
> to agree with the advice you're given, but it certainly doesn't hurt
> to be given it.
Yes you are right, but it depends how that correction is made.
If I ask if the code=20
is correct, it is very OK to be answered that yes, it is OK, but that it =
be helpful to add other things like
and that it is also nice to use spaces between vars and operators and =
that it will need to declare the variables using
my $x =3D $y + $z;
But is not OK to be first told that I need to use strict and warnings, =
or that I need to add "my" or spaces, because maybe I already know these =
things and use them in my code, but I stripped them down on the mailing =
list because I am interested only in the code.
The corrections are OK because other beginners will read them and they =
will be very helpful, but it is not OK to start the messages with them =
making the person who asked to feel stupid.