Hi all,

I recently finished working on a new document titled "How to Start
Contributing to or Using Open Source Software" intended to get more people
involved in the world of free and open source software (FOSS). You can find it
here:

http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/How_to_start_contributing_to_...

Short link: http://bit.ly/gkeXn5

I mention Perl there as well in the "How to learn how to program" section.

Any comments, corrections or suggestions would be welcome.

Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

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Hello,

I visited the page, and bookmarked it. It's funny, it's like you're
describing almost the exact process I'm going through..

About the programming part, I'm in Control/Feedback Systems, but I think
that every person has something to benefit from learning to program..

I used to be very into it, and then abandonned it for many years ... And
now I'm back at it..

I recently switched to Ubuntu, coming from Windows/Dos [I'm 23, and been
using it for about 19 years]..

Contrary to what most people fear when switching OS and the "I'll be
lost" and the "I'll have to learn it all over again"..  Well, it's not
my experience at all. Sure I'll have to learn, a lot .. But I kind of
like it, and I personnally like the Scortched Earth approach, where you
jump in both feet, no previous contact with different OS or something..
It's a matter of character.

What amazes me, is that, it's like it  "assumes" you want to write code
and develop stuff .. It's like it's the default thing, you just write
"python" or "perl" in the Terminal, and it says it's not installed and
"proposes" to download it.. It was just waiting for you.. Like it was
meant to be. I love it !

Thank you,

~Jugurtha,

On 12/27/2010 07:56 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Not really Perl specific, but I think you're trying to cover way too
much in a single article. The sort of person who doesn't know what
software is isn't the sort of person who'll be able to understand your
explanation of build systems. You'd be better off breaking the article
into a series of posts tackling the different issues.

Katie
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Hi,

   I think it is not fair to pointing the reader out directly to Linux.
There are other systems out there more Open Source than Linux like OpenBSD
(for example). I think a briedfly review of these other OS would be good
for the article and, after that, let the reader to choose between Linux -
OpenBSD - FreeBSD - NetBSD, etc...

   Just my 2 cents.

   Kind Regards,

      Alvaro

--------------------------------------
      Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez
     http://alvaromantilla.com/
   email: alv...@alvaromantilla.com
--------------------------------------

On Monday 27 Dec 2010 21:44:05 Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez wrote:

First of all, while the licence of most of the BSDs is a permissive one
whereas the licence of most of Linux is the GPL, which is more restrictive,
the GPL is still open-source. You can argue that the BSD licence and the X11
licence are more "open" or more "free" than the GPL or LGPL but that doesn't
make them more "open source".

Secondly, the reason I didn't point the user to the BSDs was the same as the
reason I didn't refer them to Gentoo Linux or Archlinux: they are not ready or
even not intended for newcomers, who are the target audience of the article.
For example:

1. I tried installing PC-BSD on a VirtualBox virtual machine. After
downloading the first two CDs and installing using them, the installation
asked for the third CD which was clearly marked as "optional components".
Since I didn't download that, I tried to avoid it, at which point the
installation aborted and left the installation in an unusable, unbootable
state.

From what I know of Mandriva Linux and other Linux distributions, you can
easily install them using only the first CD.

2. Next, I tried installing plain FreeBSD on a similar virtual machine. The
installation was made in text mode, and try as I might, it wouldn't detect the
VirtualBox internal networking interface. Someone told me that the installer
wasn't worked on for several years.

3. Someone who was able to successfully install FreeBSD, had to recompile a
large percent of the system from ports (including X, etc.) after wishing to
install something. I don't expect most newcomers to be able to tolerate this
without giving up.

4. An Israeli developer who tried to install OpenBSD commented about the
hostility of the installer and how, at a point, the instructions scrolled past
and he couldn't see them.

-------

So while I don't rule out that after some experience, an open-source
enthusiast will opt to experiment with the *BSDs or with less user-friendly
Linux distributions, I cannot recommend any of them as introductory OSes, and
mentioning them as alternatives to introductory distributions will just
confuse the reader. They are out of the scope of the document.

Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

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On Monday 27 Dec 2010 22:24:45 Jugurtha Hadjar wrote:

That's a feature of the Ubuntu command-line configuration, and is not specific
to typing "perl" or "python". Any uninstalled command you'll type on the
Ubuntu command-line will yield this prompt.

Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

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This is so blatantly OT it shouldn't be on this list.

--
Erez

Observations, not opinions.

Hello Erez (and all),

On Tuesday 28 Dec 2010 11:01:40 Erez Schatz wrote:

Maybe my impression is a bit biased, but it seems to me that most of your
posts to this list are replies to my posts where you criticise them (and not
in a particularly constructive way.). On the other hand, most of my posts (and
those of most other active members of the lists) were replies for people
asking for help, while trying to be helpful. And since I subscribed I've
posted much more posts than you.

Now before I configure my mail filters to filter out all your posts to
beginn...@perl.org because they tend to make me irritated, I ask you to change
your ways. Can you please not try to criticise me here and instead focus on
helping people with their problems? You are being venomous and achieve nothing
of value.

And you've got to practise what you preach.

Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

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On 12/28/2010 01:04 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Since most of your posts are related to directing people to your site,
I'd say we are about even. In more tightly-moderated lists you'd be
banned for spamming. If we take off the parts where you just rip through
people's style, platform, or design choices, or reprimand them for not
following what you consider to be the One True Way of writing emails,
the number is good, but not that hight.

Feel free.

Sorry, the world just don't revolve around you, and people don't need to
conform to your ways. You have a problem with my writing, forward it to
the list moderator, or filter me out.

I am. This has nothing to do with "Perl beginners" and everything to do
with other, probably more guided lists.

--
Erez

Observations, not opinions.

2010/12/29 Erez Schatz <moonb...@gmail.com>:

I agree with this point.
Directing everyone to a personal site is always considered rude.

Regards.

On 2010-12-29, at 8:11 AM, jeff pang wrote:

In most cases, I would also agree.  But to his credit, he had mentioned that he was directing us to his own article and the link did not have advertisement as I was expecting.  That imply he may just be driven by sharing, which I would not call a vice.

Give the guy the benefit of doubt sometimes .....

Hi Erez,

On Wednesday 29 Dec 2010 09:37:44 Erez Schatz wrote:

Why do you feel that pointing people to relevant resources to the question at
hand on http://perl-begin.org/ (which I assume is what you mean by "your
site") constitutes spamming? And why do you think that this fact protects you
from my criticism of you?

I admit that I tend to comment on people's style, design choices or code
issues a lot. Other posters here also do that a lot. Normally, I do that
because such problems should be avoided in the future, and because I'm
reviewing the entire code and commenting on everything I find (which may
include some fixes to bugs). Do you feel that when people post to this
list, one should not comment on the bad elements exhibited in their code?

Regarding my E-mail netiquette comments, can you point to an email where I
commented about that, and did not write a Perl-related answer to the question
asked?

You are right that the world does not revolve around me, and that I may often
like being the centre of attention. Before I resort to filtering you out,
which I'd rather not do, will you consider what I said?

That's good.

Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

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On Wednesday 29 Dec 2010 15:11:22 jeff pang wrote:

Well, just for the record, I normally refer people asking for help here to
http://perl-begin.org/ which is not my personal web-site (the latter being the
one mentioned in the signature). Moreover, I normally refer people to certain
parts of Perl-Begin where they can find more information to what they asked
about or need help with and not to the front page of this.

Furthermore, I aim http://perl-begin.org/ to be a community first-stop for
learning about Perl. While, since its inception, I've done most of the work on
it myself, I received some notable contributions from other people whom I
credit at http://perl-begin.org/contribute/list/ , the source code for the
site is in a publicly accessible version control repository, and the licence
for the content is the open-content/free-content Creative Commons Attribution
License (CC-by), which allows for nearly unlimited reuse. Everyone is welcome
to contribute to it by sending comments, corrections or patches.

As far as Perl beginner portals go, I feel it is much more communal than
http://learn.perl.org/ whose development model is tightly controlled and not
open, which has suffered from a lot of neglect since its inception (while
perl-begin.org has constantly been developed and enhanced), whose licence is
the highly restrictive CC-by-nc-nd licence, and which is far less
comprehensive. Nevertheless, it appears at the list signature of every message
to this E-mail and I don't see people complaining about it being "spam".

Regards,

        Shlomi Fish

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Dear all
   Without involving in this dicussion deeply , i just want to mention
my view .  As a newbie in perl as well in this forum i found Shlomi
Fish answers very useful and to the point.  So i think blaming
spamming short of thing is not right.

Thanks

On 12/30/10, Shlomi Fish <shlo...@iglu.org.il> wrote:

--
http://linuxinterviews.blogspot.com

<I've snipped the thread conversation for simplicities' sake>

Shlomi,

I'm new to Perl, but I perceive your posts to be among the most well thought
out opinions/instructions on this list and appreciate your willingness to
help.  Certainly, your comments are pointed and clear, but you consistently
reference coding styles and idioms that seem to be agreed upon by the
majority of the Perl community.

I look forward to your feedback when the time comes.

Thanks,
Mark

Hello,

I have been lurking on this list for a few months, and I thought
perhaps you'd all like the perspective of a 'newbie' about this issue.

First, some background - I'm a long-time programmer, primarily in
java, secondarily in PHP and shell script.  I have started working
with a new team who uses perl, so I've had to learn it - from them,
from books/tutorials, from this list, and by just writing it.  I spent
a bunch of time with online tutorials and books before really getting
started, so most of my interest in this list is about "real-life
examples of perl" rather than "learning to program".

For my point of view: I find this list to be like most 'beginners'
lists I've seen - 20% filled with homework questions, 60% filled with
real questions with very helpful answers, and 20% filled with
bickering about religious wars (about perl, about response-style,
about email formatting, etc.)  I honestly think that mix is normal and
indicates that the list is basically healthy, so I live with the 40%
that isn't useful to me, because the 60% is so useful.  (Plus the
'mute' feature of gmail is great!)

In regards to Shlomi and his approach to the emails - he posts a lot.
Most of it is timely, accurate, and helpful.  Even before this thread,
I had a real sense that he was keeping the list quality high - even if
a small part of his content is about religious wars.  I don't mind the
links to perl-begin at all - perl-begin has been a great resource for
me.  I thought this post about contributing to open source was
off-topic, and I'm glad someone pointed that out - but I think his
personal signal/noise ratio is high, and I think that discouraging him
from posting isn't good for the list.

In general, it seems like people on this list seem to be very
responsive, but often are rather harsh about email formatting and
such, while being somewhat mild about people asking the list to do
their job/homework for them.  That has always seemed backwards to me
:)

I don't always agree with the answers/advice about the religious wars
- but I think it's important for all new netizens/programmers to learn
how to spot religious issues, so I don't feel it's necessary to jump
in.

In any case - this list has been good for me, and I really appreciate
all the contributors who have helped make it that way - with Shlomi at
the top of that list.  Thank you!

Nathan

Hi all,

I don't mean to take sides, but I should point out that what Shlomi is
being criticized to have done, has been done by others in the past at
varying degrees.  And while I don't suggest Shlomi has a need to
defend himself, one defense is to just say those others were allowed
to do it...

Maybe Shlomi was a bit off-topic and maybe he is critical of people's
coding style -- I don't know for sure as I (honestly) didn't follow
that thread closely.  But, if these things should not be part of this
mailing list, then someone ought to say something *irrespective* of
whether such a message is posted by Shlomi, a Perl newbie, or someone
highly respected in the Perl community.  Otherwise, the criticism
leveled at Shlomi is a bit unfair...

Ray

  NA> First, some background - I'm a long-time programmer, primarily in
  NA> java, secondarily in PHP and shell script.  I have started working
  NA> with a new team who uses perl, so I've had to learn it - from them,
  NA> from books/tutorials, from this list, and by just writing it.  I spent
  NA> a bunch of time with online tutorials and books before really getting
  NA> started, so most of my interest in this list is about "real-life
  NA> examples of perl" rather than "learning to program".

if you spent any time with the typical perl tutorial on the net, you
wasted it. maybe 3 or so of them are decent, the rest are garbage.

  NA> For my point of view: I find this list to be like most 'beginners'
  NA> lists I've seen - 20% filled with homework questions, 60% filled with
  NA> real questions with very helpful answers, and 20% filled with
  NA> bickering about religious wars (about perl, about response-style,
  NA> about email formatting, etc.)  I honestly think that mix is normal and
  NA> indicates that the list is basically healthy, so I live with the 40%
  NA> that isn't useful to me, because the 60% is so useful.  (Plus the
  NA> 'mute' feature of gmail is great!)

the formatting wars you are whining about are important. communication
is the goal here and if everyone posted however they wanted, not much
would happen. there are rules to email/usenet and they were created long
ago in ancient days and they are still valid. we read top to bottom so
post that way. we don't need to see the old emails fully quoted so edit
them (that rule came out of actual needs for less storage and
bandwidth. even though that isn't important anymore it is still a better
way to write emails).

  NA> In regards to Shlomi and his approach to the emails - he posts a lot.
  NA> Most of it is timely, accurate, and helpful.  Even before this thread,
  NA> I had a real sense that he was keeping the list quality high - even if
  NA> a small part of his content is about religious wars.  I don't mind the
  NA> links to perl-begin at all - perl-begin has been a great resource for
  NA> me.  I thought this post about contributing to open source was
  NA> off-topic, and I'm glad someone pointed that out - but I think his
  NA> personal signal/noise ratio is high, and I think that discouraging him
  NA> from posting isn't good for the list.

the rules are those who contribute and help, the make the rules. lurkers
can jump in but their voices are usually discounted. it is that way
since otherwise it would become lord of the flies in perl.

  NA> In general, it seems like people on this list seem to be very
  NA> responsive, but often are rather harsh about email formatting and
  NA> such, while being somewhat mild about people asking the list to do
  NA> their job/homework for them.  That has always seemed backwards to me
  NA> :)

nope. you are backwards to it! :)

  NA> I don't always agree with the answers/advice about the religious wars
  NA> - but I think it's important for all new netizens/programmers to learn
  NA> how to spot religious issues, so I don't feel it's necessary to jump
  NA> in.

and you are being religious about religious issues. pot meet kettle. :)

uri

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-----  Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
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Maybe.  But people think in many ways and sometimes things have to be
explained differently for different people.  That is why in a class,
there will be a handful -- yes, not a lot of people -- who won't
understand at the end.  That's because we don't all think alike.

Saying the other tutorials are garbage is quite harsh and a bit
disrespectful to the authors who presumably meant well and didn't do
it to sabotage Perl's reputation.  Maybe they aren't helpful to the
majority of people, but they may help a few people.

Thanks to Google, those top 3 you mention will probably be ranked at
the top, so the so-called "garbage ones" aren't going to negatively
affect many people.

Yes/no.  They are important, but one should realize that there are
varying levels of adherence to such rules.  Should we expect a mailing
list to beginners to adhere to such posting rules or even coding rules
as well as, let's say, the developers of Perl6?

While I do agree that those rules are important, IMHO, I think before
people complain about how someone posts, we ought to consider the
audience.  "Well, how else are they going to learn?", is perhaps what
you would say.  Well, if you complain about them too much, they'll
leave Perl (let's face it -- they're beginners, so their initial
investment in Perl was small so far) and is that the type of
impression Perl experts should give?

All I'm saying is that the rules of posting are important, but we
ought to show some restraint.  If we show restraint on one mailing
list for beginners and not another one where everyone posts regularly,
that isn't a bad thing.

No.  What makes this list are the beginners.  Without them, there is
no list -- or the list would be very different.  And many of them are
lurkers who jump in, post a question, and jump out.  But, if the have
a good impression from the replies from the question they asked, they
might come in again months later.  That's how the community can grow.

If we leave it to just the people who "contribute and help", then it's
no longer a list for beginners.  It's for the contributors to post
among themselves.

The enforcement of the rules should be done to compromise between the
contributors and the beginners...not just one side.  Or am I mistaken?

Ray

2010/12/31 Raymond Wan <r....@aist.go.jp>:

Right. Anyway Happy New Year all Perl gurus and beginners!

Regards.

Love conquers all - even those thorny, iconoclastic Perl gurus!  Happy New Year.

Chap

(oops, sorry for the top-post ;-)

On Dec 31, 2010, at 8:30 AM, jeff pang wrote:

Happy new years to all of you too!

Sorry for top-post. I think that the context is obvious. :-)

Octavian

  RW> On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 13:28, Uri Guttman <u...@stemsystems.com> wrote:
  >>>>>>> "NA" == Nathan Arthur <nart...@rainskit.com> writes:
  >>  NA> from books/tutorials, from this list, and by just writing it.  I spent
  >>  NA> a bunch of time with online tutorials and books before really getting
  >>  NA> started, so most of my interest in this list is about "real-life
  >>  NA> examples of perl" rather than "learning to program".
  >> if you spent any time with the typical perl tutorial on the net, you
  >> wasted it. maybe 3 or so of them are decent, the rest are garbage.

  RW> Saying the other tutorials are garbage is quite harsh and a bit
  RW> disrespectful to the authors who presumably meant well and didn't do
  RW> it to sabotage Perl's reputation.  Maybe they aren't helpful to the
  RW> majority of people, but they may help a few people.

when they are full of mistakes, wrong coding ideas, bad writing, no
connection to the perl community, etc. etc. there are dozens of them
like this. i have reviewed many on usenet (search google).

  RW> Thanks to Google, those top 3 you mention will probably be ranked at
  RW> the top, so the so-called "garbage ones" aren't going to negatively
  RW> affect many people.

not at all. google doesn't always show the best ones as there are so
many. i don't go searching for them. on usenet or other places
(including here) newbies will claim they are using some site to learn
perl. i go there to check it out and i get sick.

  >> the formatting wars you are whining about are important. communication
  >> is the goal here and if everyone posted however they wanted, not much
  >> would happen. there are rules to email/usenet and they were created long
  >> ago in ancient days and they are still valid. we read top to bottom so
  >> post that way. we don't need to see the old emails fully quoted so edit
  >> them (that rule came out of actual needs for less storage and
  >> bandwidth. even though that isn't important anymore it is still a better
  >> way to write emails).

  RW> Yes/no.  They are important, but one should realize that there are
  RW> varying levels of adherence to such rules.  Should we expect a mailing
  RW> list to beginners to adhere to such posting rules or even coding rules
  RW> as well as, let's say, the developers of Perl6?

not adhering when the first get here. adhering AFTER they are told about
netiquette and email quoting styles. there is a difference.

  >> the rules are those who contribute and help, the make the rules. lurkers
  >> can jump in but their voices are usually discounted. it is that way
  >> since otherwise it would become lord of the flies in perl.

  RW> No.  What makes this list are the beginners.  Without them, there is
  RW> no list -- or the list would be very different.  And many of them are
  RW> lurkers who jump in, post a question, and jump out.  But, if the have
  RW> a good impression from the replies from the question they asked, they
  RW> might come in again months later.  That's how the community can grow.

  RW> If we leave it to just the people who "contribute and help", then it's
  RW> no longer a list for beginners.  It's for the contributors to post
  RW> among themselves.

you didn't get my point. the answers come from the core regular
experts. the questions from the beginners. so the experts make the
rules. if the newbies made the rules, nothing would get done.

this has happened in every other forum in network history. you need
rules (both technical and social) for this to work well. there is no way
around it.

uri

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And - seriously - thanks to the volunteers for their patience and effort.  Given enough eyeballs, all questions are answerable (to paraphrase ESR :-)

Chap

On Dec 31, 2010, at 11:57 AM, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

On 10-12-31 02:25 PM, Chap Harrison wrote:

Top posts don't bother me as much as those who don't trim the quotes.
Other problems:

* Don't hijack threads.  Once people decide not to read a thread, they
just skip any message in it.  That means only those who are reading the
thread will see it when a new question is asked.  You're better off
starting a new thread so the most eyes will see it.

(But if you do hijack a thread, please change its subject.)

Happy New Year everyone.  :)

--
Just my 0.00000002 million dollars worth,
   Shawn

Confusion is the first step of understanding.

Programming is as much about organization and communication
as it is about coding.

The secret to great software:  Fail early & often.

Eliminate software piracy:  use only FLOSS.