Next meeting, possible topic?

[Troy Howard]

From Chris Wright earlier this week:

"

This article is some serious food for thought after seeing previews of Windows 8.

 

http://www.i-programmer.info/professional-programmer/i-programmer/2591-dumping-net-microsofts-madness.html

"

Not sure what I think about this issue, but it is definitely something that is affecting our community in a substantial way. Probably a good idea to have some round-table discussion about the topic. Anyone care to spearhead the discussion? Maybe someone with a little insight into Windows 8 and the new programming model they are pimping? 

Thanks,

Troy

[Justin Collum]

I've been keeping half an eye on this and I don't know that there's much more than a tiny bit of information (from MS) with a ton of speculation (from everyone else). The MS reps are saying "wait until September" -- who knows what they really mean by that. The marketing/PR machine has to gear up I suppose.

From the article: "To be clear HTML/JavaScript is unproven technology." --> Wha? There's no evidence offered to back this up. I look at something like gmail and see that as proof that html/javascript are robust. Hard to build right for sure, but robust. Plus, gmail's up-time is way better than Exchange, at least around my office.

I agree that this is a worthwhile topic, but I don't think there is a lot of solid information around this yet.

[Troy Howard]

Yep, I agree, but I think it's probably important for us to discuss, as a community, what we want to see happen. I'm seeing a lot of fears expressed, but not much in the way of solutions.

The article is not the best in the world, but you know, it's a good starting point to talk about it. As far as being proven/unproven, I think we can easily say that HTML/Javascript is quite proven to work, but also quite proven to suck. HTML5 is a bit unproven. My understanding of the new Windows 8 model is that it will see the return of COM in a heavy way, in addition to the HTML/Javascript model. Will COM be our backend for our HTML front ends? I'd really like to know more about what this new vision is, and as many have said, the sooner the better so that we can prepare as an industry. 

If nothing else, venting and discussing those fears to help understand them is a worthwhile pursuit. 

-T

[Christopher Wright]

After reading some other articles regarding Windows 8 and Windows Phone 7, it seems pretty clear that Microsoft is shooting for the mobile device target.  The active tiles interface is different than iPhone and Android and actually pretty cool when it comes down to it. 

 

-- CW

--

Thanks,

 

Chris

[Justin Collum]

This article has some interesting things to add to this discussion:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/06/windows-8-for-software-developers-the-longhorn-dream-reborn.ars/

Still all conjecture though.

[Adron Hall]

I had an interesting conversation about Silverlight + Web Dev + Javascript and how...

  Silverlight is quick to dev...

  Javascript is not a competent language...

  ...and started wondering what exactly IS web dev?

This coming from the idea that Silverlight has really gotten beaten up. It isn't used in many scenarios were it would be useful. But also what about the massive developer force + energy behind Node.js, Javascript in general, and the HTML5 effort.

It could make for a very interesting (and passionate + heated) debate about were technology is going for the web.

Also - what's the date for the next meetup?  I'm pondering a train trip to try and catch it.

-Adron

--
Adron B Hall

Tech: http://compositecode.com
Transit:  http://transitsleuth.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/adronbh

[Eric Williams]

Seems like less conjecture now : We’re pleased to announce the transition of the XAML platform team from the Developer Division to the Windows team http://www.riagenic.com/archives/683

[Mike Lonergan]

Wonderful - that sinks any future for XAML for me. This is taken straight from the "how to destroy something you don't like and want to die" playbook at Microsoft - divide, absorb some of the disconnected pieces and extinguish.

One more example of how capricious and lacking in balls Microsoft execs can be - punting on investments that require years-long investments just as they're starting to pay off, usually just to show "I'm doing something different than the last guy" - which coupled with yearly reorgs across the company, pretty much asphyxiates any long-term thinking.

[Justin Collum]

I'm unclear on why transition to Windows team == slow death of platform. Can anyone explain that?

[Adron Hall]

Ok, this might sound harsh, but it is in all honesty why I completely removed myself from the Microsoft campus after observing the Windows Team Behavior + Reputation.

The Windows Team, and a lot of the surrounding parts of the Windows Team has basically taken the ideals and philosophy laid out in the agile manifesto and thrown it out the window. They continue to be led in large part by sales+marketing and NOT by technological progress or efficiency. They've smothered developer after developer, pushing many of the best far, far outside of the group or completely out of the company. Now as with everything Microsoft, this may not be true in ALL the parts of the Windows Team, but it is by far NOT the progressive team within the company. The reputation is even known within the the Seattle Tech Community as being the lethargic beast, which is something MS (parts of it that are aware of this) are trying desperately to stem to encourage hires.

The team that is making progress and inroads to the community (i.e. developers) is the web + azure team. Microsoft is betting the company on it. The Gu being put in charge of that group + web is an example of this.  Even with the growth in developers around XAML/Silverlight/WPF over the last ~2 years or so is significantly dwarfed in the developer community by the number of "web devs" and it appears MS is making a play for those devs. How well they'll do is another story entirely, but they're trying.

I hope something can be brought forward in the realm of high end RIA, I'll admit that I don't think HTML5 + Javascript is the answer, but whatever the case Silverlight/XAML/WPF and even Adobe AIR + Flash don't look like they have many legs left to stand on.

Any other thoughts on the matter?  Any solutions?  Any other glimmers of hope?

[Eric Sterling]

I dunno, maybe I am an eternal optimist, but Laurent Buignons article (which was referred to in the original post of this thread), seems pretty hopeful.

 

I guess we’ll see in September

[Jayson Barley]

Might want to give a read on this one

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/06/windows-8-for-software-developers-the-longhorn-dream-reborn.ars/

It offers even more hope.

[Eric Sterling]

That was the blog post I was in fact referring to. I thought Laurent wrote it, but I guess he just linked to it in a tweet

[Jesse Johnston]

With respect to HTML5 + JavaScript, I am very impressed by the capabilities.  When used appropriately, JavaScript is very powerful and elegant. Modern browsers support very fast JS execution, and there are a number of very impressive supporting libraries out there.  jQuery is just the tip of the spear.  Even on the server, with Node.js, JavaScript is taking off.  It is very clearly not just the future, but the now.

 

For RIA, the HTML5 canvas offers significant opportunities.  Backward compatibility is a challenge that is mitigated by options such as ExCanvas (http://code.google.com/p/explorercanvas/).  It took me only 2 weeks to develop a functional windowing system with JavaScript and canvas that duplicates the basics of Silverlight control layout, input, and generalized animations.  I’ve no doubt that there are teams feverishly working on full featured canvas-based RIAs right now.

 

From the available public information about Windows 8 and the news of the dispersal of the XAML team, it seems obvious that Silverlight and WPF are being pushed to the sidelines (and to niche platforms such as Windows Phone 7 and Xbox).  More broadly, even the future of .NET seems questionable, with the renewed focus on unmanaged C++.  Of course it will live on in the enterprise for years, but for startups and web development generally, .NET and Silverlight are already a second choice at best.

 

I’m a huge .NET and Silverlight fan, but I don’t expect to be developing on those platforms in five years.  Things move fast in the software world.

 

Cheers,

Jesse

 

 

From: pdxalt...@googlegroups.com [mailto:pdxalt...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Adron Hall
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 2:47 PM
To: pdxalt...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pdxalt.net] Next meeting, possible topic?

 

Ok, this might sound harsh, but it is in all honesty why I completely removed myself from the Microsoft campus after observing the Windows Team Behavior + Reputation.

[Justin Collum]

I agree that JS is the one thing that we will continue to need in our toolboxes for the next many years. I always felt that Silverlight just meant having to learn a new toolset, considering that any app you expose to the outside world would need to run in html and silverlight, especially now that there are so freakin many tablets in the world (25 million o_0) -- none of which run Silverlight. It's nice for internal line-of-business apps. Still, you *will* need HTML5 + JS to write apps for the at-large web world and the manager-with-an-ipad, why not just use the same knowledge to write internal line-of-business apps?

This discussion makes me want to learn coffeescript even more.

[Lee Harding]

As someone briefly involved with Longhorn way-back-when as a third party, I am very glad to see the line of thinking remains.  If Microsoft's crime was being a decade ahead of itself, perhaps our fatigued patience  an be sustained a few weeks before issuing final judgment.

Sent from my Windows Phone

---

From: Justin Collum
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 5:45 PM

To: pdxalt...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [pdxalt.net] Next meeting, possible topic?