Conversation starters

[Joshua Katz]

So, I noticed this list has been dead for quite some time.  I don't really have time or ideas for a big piece to get people fired up, but I figured I could throw out a few short ideas and see if that russles up any conversation.

 

1.  Lew Rockwell - he's definitely getting influenced.  First, he started talking about his barefoot shoes, and looking at his photo, unless he's running an older picture, he's definitely lost weight and gotten younger looking.  However, he mentioned working out with a personal trainer at the gym the other day - I hope he's not falling into The Dark Side - ie. globo-gyms and their silly "trainers."  Anyone know what he's doing?

2.  Mark Rippetoe - definitely libertarian, or at least lib-leaning (Fair-Tax link on the gym website), not sure about paleo, but definitely paleo-friendly workout routines, and very much a low-carb guy from his book.  I doubt he's munching on soy crisps, either, so by default he's probably at least primal.  Maybe someone can see if he's interested in this list?

3.  The odd semi-libertarianism that runs around Crossfit - this isn't really unique to Crossfit, but never before have I experienced it in such a concentrated form.  The libertarianism is of the "rugged individualism" variety - rather than things like having a right not to have your income stolen, it's more about how you shouldn't need welfare, except maybe if you do, or something.  Anyway, the semi part is the glorification of war and the military.  Seriously - it's a generally libertarian atmosphere, except that then you have the "hero" workouts - a hero defined as a government worker who dies, the patriotic music, etc.  It very much resembles my least favorite political philosophy - liberventionism.  Why is this my least favorite?  Because the run of the mill statist doesn't recognize the value of liberty.  Fine.  But the liberventionist does - and just couldn't care less, so long as good people - ie. 'mericans - are not the victims.  So what's the deal with this?

4.  Mixed messages - Mark Sisson talks about minimizing dairy in one chapter of his book, and lists acceptable dairy in order of preference.  Fine.  But in other chapters, and webposts, he talks about vegetables smothered in butter, cooking with cream, and so on.  Is this all 20% stuff?

5.  Calories - do they matter at all?  After completing a "paleo challenge" - rather easy if you already eat close to paleo, albeit not as strictly - I went on a rather simple meal plan for a couple weeks.  This made sense, as I was tired of being creative, and was moving, so I wanted to pack most of my kitchen.  My breakfast shake consisted of coconut milk, whey protein (I know), a bit of cream (I know), and raw nut butter.  Out of curiosity, I looked this over this morning and found it contained close to 1000 calories.  Dinner consisted of grilled fatty meat, but not a large quantity, so between that and my light lunch I was probably totalling just around 2000, which isn't terrible at 210.  I did notice that weight loss stopped, despite being in ketosis.  Was I eating too many calories per meal?  Too many calories per day?  Too much dairy?  Any thoughts?

6.  A trainer I've started working with wrote a blog (at practicalpaleolithic.com) pointing out that "specializing in not specializing is not the same as specializing at sucking."  He mentioned that Crossfit has taken off, and he worries the elite part is being left behind.  I worry about the same - I've gotten my times from the bottom to the middle without improving them much.  I used to look around and be intimidated by almost everyone, now, there are plenty of people who, like me, are trying to get back into shape.  This is, in principle, a good thing - what else would it mean for Crossfit to grow? - but the concern is that, as this happens, people feel more complacent, get away with worse form - more people for instrctors to look at - and just don't improve as rapidly.  Thoughts?  Myself, I've kind of broken it down into the different 'sports' that make up Crossfit, and decided, one at a time, to commit to really learning them correctly.  That's how I ended up with this guy, who is an IKBB teacher - I decided to start with kettlebells and functional movement (for, I think, obvious reasons.)

7.  Debt ceiling nonsense - I like to point out to people that, regardless of their opinion, they should realize the people we send to Washington are, in fact, not leaders of any kind, just children.  They should think twice before putting these people in charge of anything else.

8.  FAA - Awesome!  If only people would get the point - if you think FAA functions are important (they are), then you should realize that the reason they aren't being provided is precisely because the FAA is a branch of government.  If you want these things done reliably, you must take them out of the government sector and instead put them into the market.  If the complaint is that they are being "held hostage" - what made them hostage to politics in the first place?  I think this is a useful way to argue in general.

9.  Positivism - Lately, I've come to wonder if this is, actually, our real enemy.  It seems to me, at quick glance, that a positivist simply cannot be a libertarian, and that to a positivist, libertarianism would have to seem absurd.  Godel, the premier anti-positivist (along with Mises) seems relatively libertarian, by contrast.  Is there  a clear relationship between paleo and positivism?  (I'm working on an article arguing that, since positivism is so anti-libertarian, libertarians are likely to end up thinking in ways that, while technically unrelated to the state question, are generally anti-positivist.  This is my explanation for why Austrianism and libertarianism are empirically so closely related, while one is value-free science and the other a political ideology.)  Can a general feeling or worldview that opposes positivist ideas help explain why paleo and libertarianism end up so closely related?

[Mary H]

Hi Josh,

 

Great idea to bring up these topics!

 

As for dairy, I don't necessarily "like" having to have some of  it, but it is just not practicable for me at this point in my life to do 100% w/o it.

 

I am as close as is humanly possible, free of all grains.

 

I get really bad arthritis from grains.

 

If I keep the dairy down, I do not have problems. Too much, and I start getting an aching back.

 

Yes, the LRC is getting more and more paleolithic

 

Would LOVE to see the Gary North list get more paleolithic

 

garynorth.com

 

Oh well.

 

Have seen simply miracles with my youngest son on a paleo diet

 

Again, thanks for keeping the list alive.

 

Yours,

Mary

San Jose, CA

[Nicole Renee Markee]

On Aug 5, 2011, at 2:44 PM, Joshua Katz wrote:

> 6. A trainer I've started working with wrote a blog (at practicalpaleolithic.com) pointing out that "specializing in not specializing is not the same as specializing at sucking." He mentioned that Crossfit has taken off, and he worries the elite part is being left behind. I worry about the same - I've gotten my times from the bottom to the middle without improving them much. I used to look around and be intimidated by almost everyone, now, there are plenty of people who, like me, are trying to get back into shape. This is, in principle, a good thing - what else would it mean for Crossfit to grow? - but the concern is that, as this happens, people feel more complacent, get away with worse form - more people for instrctors to look at - and just don't improve as rapidly. Thoughts? Myself, I've kind of broken it down into the different 'sports' that make up Crossfit, and decided, one at a time, to commit to really learning them correctly. That's how I ended up with this guy, who is an IKBB teacher - I decided to start with kettlebells and functional movement (for, I think, obvious reasons.)

I love Crossfit, and I even have a level 1 cert (and another set of CPT letters as well). At the moment, I'm finding Crossfit to be both too expensive and too cortisol-producing. I love to beat the crap out of myself, probably for the adrenaline high, but I was starting to actually get weaker.

Instead of $150 a month for Crossfit just for me, the hubs and I joined the Y for $68 a month for *both* of us. It has free weights, dumbbells, Concept rowers, and indoor track, and everything else you'd expect to find in a globo-gym. It also has pools, a hot tub, sauna and steam room. When I compare that to 3-4 hours a week at Crossfit, it seems nuts to spend that kind of money so I can wind up feeling worse. I am certainly capable of programming our workouts.

I don't know if you listen to Robb Wolf's podcast, but he and Greg Everett went off on CF this week, and they made some good points.

> 7. Debt ceiling nonsense - I like to point out to people that, regardless of their opinion, they should realize the people we send to Washington are, in fact, not leaders of any kind, just children. They should think twice before putting these people in charge of anything else.

My hubby calls them "fundamentally unserious", but I'd agree that they are (also) children.

-Nicole

[Joshua Katz]

Regarding Gary North - I don't subscribe, but he did introduce me to
raw dairy in an LRC piece he wrote a while back. Now, advocating
drinking tons of milk is certainly not paleo, but it seems,
nonetheless, to have something in common with paleo: natural foods,
unprocessed, and politically incorrect. So it seems to me that he'd
certainly be open to paleo, presented the right way. If you start off
attacking milk, it would turn him off.

Also, it's interesting to me how many miracle stories we see about
paleo, including my own surprise at my success. But, there are just
as many miracle stories about milk cures. Weird.

[Joshua Katz]

It's funny, I went to Crossfit (after seeing the beginning of a movie
about assertiveness training) almost entirely because of the
reputation for being insanely elite. I'm not fitness elite, by any
stretched, but wanted to be pushed. Once I saw the program, I worried
very seriously about losing strength. A few things bugged me - long
metcons on a lot of days, light weights with only occasional strength
training thrown in, and the general sense that people were as strong
as they were coming in. I met some really strong people - all of them
powerlifters before they came to Crossfit. When we did strength
tests, I, despite being out of shape, came in close to the top, as a
rank beginner. So I worried about it, but wanted to lose weight, so I
decided to see what happens. What happened was, on 3 days a week
(supposedly doing P2P on off days, but it was only actually happening
once or twice a week) I added 50 to my deadlift, unknown to my bench
(hadn't benched in years, but certainly lifted more than I thought I
should be able to), 30 to my clean (or, to be fair, learned to clean
better), and moved up a half pood for 25 swings. Now, this was after
lifting for 10 years. Why did this happen? I don't know. Maybe I
was going too heavy too often before. Maybe it was cleaning up the
diet better.

There are so many routines out there (I'm looking at you, P90X) that
seem perfect - for total beginners. Then there's things like Super
Squats - sure, you can squat your 10RM for 20 by doing rest-pause and
add 10 pounds a week, for a few weeks, so they end it at 6 weeks. I
want something I can adapt and use for a longer time - like, my
life.

Maybe I'm not getting this cortisol problem on Crossfit because I'm
only doing 3 times a week, or because I refuse to do certain things,
like look at the clock. Ironically, it might be my total lack of
competitiveness that helps - I'm not worried about getting better
times, just a decent workout, if I need to rest, I rest. In other
words, maybe Crossfit works best for those who don't get the adrenalin
high and don't enjoy beating the crap out of ourselves. I'm not
sure.

I hear you on the Y. I'd save a ton of money going there. I just
moved into a house with a backyard, so I now have space for strongman
stuff at home. I worry about losing the community at Crossfit,
though. I know I can get the same workout at the Y - but would I?

I'll look for that podcast.

[Mary H]

I think he himself (Gary) is into unprocessed foods and is especially against sugar

 

But the list itself seems to have relatively few paleo people on it

 

thanks for starting up some discussion

 

Mary

[Toban Wiebe]

Josh, thanks for trying to revive the list. I think the google group platform is largely to blame. I've had much better experiences with facebook groups. We should consider moving this group to a better platform (i.e., facebook).

Just read Stephan Guyenet's critique of Taubes: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html

Pretty interesting stuff, I highly recommend looking at it.

As for Lew, my brother saw him at Mises this summer. He's lost a lot of weight since 2009, so much so that he's been wearing his pants from the '60s!

[Neil Timms]

I for one could not do a Facebook group if doing that meant that I had
to have a Facebook login; I'm a Facebook escapee!

I find the discussion in the comments below Stephan Guyenet's posting
as interesting than the blog post itself.

Mechanisms aside my own personal experience is that each time I have
cut further carbs and increased fat intake I have lost weight and
experienced less hunger between meals (I usually only eat now when I
feel hungry). I deliberately add carbs now to mediate my weight - now
the same as I was 30 years ago (skinny) and very stable.

Cheers

Neil

On 16 August 2011 01:04, Toban Wiebe <tob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Josh, thanks for trying to revive the list. I think the google group
> platform is largely to blame. I've had much better experiences with facebook
> groups. We should consider moving this group to a better platform (i.e.,
> facebook).
> Just read Stephan Guyenet's critique of
> Taubes: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html
> Pretty interesting stuff, I highly recommend looking at it.
> As for Lew, my brother saw him at Mises this summer. He's lost a lot of
> weight since 2009, so much so that he's been wearing his pants from the
> '60s!
>

--
Neil C Timms

[Joshua Katz]

I couldn't do a Facebook group, as I refuse to play the game with
those clowns. I used to have one and got rid of it a few years
back.

Lew must be doing low, slow cardio and eating low-fat; how else could
he possibly lose that much weight? ;-)

On Aug 15, 1:04 pm, Toban Wiebe <tob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Josh, thanks for trying to revive the list. I think the google group
> platform is largely to blame. I've had much better experiences with facebook
> groups. We should consider moving this group to a better platform (i.e.,
> facebook).
>

> Just read Stephan Guyenet's critique of Taubes:http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis...

> Pretty interesting stuff, I highly recommend looking at it.
>
> As for Lew, my brother saw him at Mises this summer. He's lost a lot of
> weight since 2009, so much so that he's been wearing his pants from the
> '60s!
>

> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Mary H <maryh4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think he himself (Gary) is into unprocessed foods and is especially
> > against sugar
>
> > But the list itself seems to have relatively few paleo people on it
>
> > thanks for starting up some discussion
>
> > Mary
>

[Joshua Katz]

Neil, my experience is the same. I distinctly remember, back in the
AOL days, wandering into a bodybuilding chat room as a young
teenager. (You know, I wanted to look buff and everything. Why the
hell would I care about being strong?) There was some semi-
experienced bodybuilder there holding court. I mentioned that cutting
calories always made me look fat, and eating more fat always brought
out cuts. Her response was that I was an idiot.

However, it was recently pointed out to me that I'm a little freaky in
other ways too (not that way...well, that way too, but it's not my
point here.) For one thing, I've always read that it takes
approximately 3 days to get into ketosis. However, I can eat pizza
and ice cream for a week, then cut out carbs for about half a day, and
test purple or black on the strips. So, it seems that my body, more
than most, really works better on fat.

On Aug 15, 9:15 pm, Neil Timms <neilti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I for one could not do a Facebook group if doing that meant that I had
> to have a Facebook login; I'm a Facebook escapee!
>
> I find the discussion in the comments below Stephan Guyenet's posting
> as interesting than the blog post itself.
>
> Mechanisms  aside my own personal experience is that each time I have
> cut further carbs and increased fat intake I have lost weight and
> experienced less hunger between meals (I usually only eat now when I
> feel hungry). I deliberately add carbs now to mediate my weight - now
> the same as I was 30 years ago (skinny) and very stable.
>
> Cheers
>
> Neil
>
> On 16 August 2011 01:04, Toban Wiebe <tob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Josh, thanks for trying to revive the list. I think the google group
> > platform is largely to blame. I've had much better experiences with facebook
> > groups. We should consider moving this group to a better platform (i.e.,
> > facebook).
> > Just read Stephan Guyenet's critique of

> > Taubes: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis...

[Joshua Katz]

Very interesting article, and great discussion in the comments. I
have a few thoughts. First, disproving a particular hypothesis
regarding how carbs cause obesity does not strike a death blow against
the idea. Here are a few more undeveloped thoughts:
1. Maybe low-carb/paleo diets aren't about eating low carb at all.
Maybe it's really about eating high-fat, adequate protein. How can
this be? Well, it could theoretically be a simple satiation/calorie
restriction thing, but as Toban knows, I took pains during my recent
"paleo challenge" to maintain caloric intake (since part of the
contest involved performance on strength tasks) and still lost 20
pounds. However, what if it's about the things that are in fat-rich
foods, whether it's fat-soluble vitamins, EFAs, or something else as
yet undiscussed? Maybe these nutrients are necessary to actually turn
food/flab into energy, and not getting enough of them results in
eating plenty of calories, but still feeling worn out, pained (what is
fibromyalgia, anyway), and so forth, then being unable to burn off
those calories, and so accumulating fat.
2. Processed food and additives. One hypothesis I kick around in my
brain is that food additives are so toxic that the body cannot deal
with them, or even eliminate them at fast enough rates, and so it
needs to store them in ways that are less dangerous - i.e. build more
fat and store them there. I know, I know, thermodynamics - but yes,
the brain has ways to increase fat stores. It can simply make you
tired and unable to move and work out, tell you to eat more carbs, or
whatever, get the caloric surplus, then release appropriate hormones.
One thing that makes this stand out to me is spending time with the
Amish, who are overall pretty skinny (not like a Crossfitter, but not
like an American either) and eat carbs, etc. but nothing processed or
with additives.
3. Autoimmune and inflammation issues. Considering the standard
omega3-6 balance on the SAD, it's reasonable that people have a ton of
autoimmune issues going on. Maybe this can contribute.
4. The government - I had an interesting thought the other day. What
if none of this is a side effect of their policies? Isn't it a great
way to keep people on the couch and out of the streets (with torches
and pitchforks) if they're fat, miserable, and can't move? We've
reduced our healthy population to a small enough minority that they
can be enticed into government jobs (cops, soldiers, FBI, etc.) and
leave us without the physical ability to resist.

On Aug 15, 1:04 pm, Toban Wiebe <tob...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Josh, thanks for trying to revive the list. I think the google group
> platform is largely to blame. I've had much better experiences with facebook
> groups. We should consider moving this group to a better platform (i.e.,
> facebook).
>

> Just read Stephan Guyenet's critique of Taubes:http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis...

> Pretty interesting stuff, I highly recommend looking at it.
>
> As for Lew, my brother saw him at Mises this summer. He's lost a lot of
> weight since 2009, so much so that he's been wearing his pants from the
> '60s!
>

> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Mary H <maryh4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think he himself (Gary) is into unprocessed foods and is especially
> > against sugar
>
> > But the list itself seems to have relatively few paleo people on it
>
> > thanks for starting up some discussion
>
> > Mary
>

[Toban Wiebe]

Facebook is undeniably a good platform, and we could have a private group. Google+ doesn't have groups yet. Perhaps something like BuddyPress could work. It's a social network platform that can be installed on a wordpress site.

I think Stephan is definitely onto something with the food reward hypothesis. But I don't think his and Taubes's theories are mutually exclusive. They could both be true; perhaps obesity has several different causes. I'm hoping Taubes will write a response, I'm curious as to what he'll concede and what he'll challenge.

[Mary H]

low carb perhaps?