If Adobe distributed non-FOSS software then it is not acceptable and
organizers are at fault in allowing this to happen.
>
> Before poking anyone like Romil Mittal, think he was a presenter who spare
> time for the community drove all the way from Noida to Dwarka, just cause we
> a bunch of organizers requested him to drop in.
>
> Xeba(i dun remember the exact name) had its logo on all the slides of Scala
> presentation, so do we poke them as well ? Dude I do not know what you think
> this camp to be, but what I believe is when you are talking in terms of
> building a community you should not be harsh and so very nazi.
>
> Regarding the slideshow in ppt format, what is the harm ? We cannot restrict
> people to use open source software for presenting at the camp ? Can we ? And
> if we are going to do that think we are spreading a wrong message in the
> community. We are a happy open source community who uses Open source
We can restrict people to use specific format and it will not be
harsh. If the presenters cant bother to install and use open source
software they have absolutely *no* right to speak at the camp.
> software, we are not rigid bunch of jerks who tend to destroy Microsoft &
> its alike.
>
> Just need you to be calm on your reactions, coz you were among the ones who
> were taking interest in driving the camp. So people will tend to follow you
> and I am sure no one wants to be extremist , does any one ?
It is not being exterimst but posing a restriction of no non-FOSS
software is fair enough. What exactly is your problem, just to get
audience you will let people do anything ? If people cant follow the
open source philosohpy they need not come here. This is not some
commercial venture. I will be happy not to see Adobe or any other big
names if the they are going to promote non-FOSS software. Narendra is
still forgiving for allowing presenters to run windows. I did not
appreciate this.
We are not here to baby feed anyone.. let the rules of the camp be
known to everyone.
BTW, pdf format should be acceptable because pdf as a format is not
controlled by Adobe and there are FOSS based pdf readers and writers.
regards
Vivek
--
The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!!
@Narendra
I did not read your complete email
Instead of maintaining a false dignity and letting non-FOSS software
permeate , it is better to debate out things. We do not impress on
anyone.. let the free speech flow.
We need to make this thing clear that if someone is not willing to
accept FOSS philosophy, they need not be part of the camp :)
On Sep 7, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Vivek Khurana <hidden...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:45 AM, Realin<rea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> @Narendra
>>
>> I did not read your complete email but since you wrote something
>> against
>> Adobe guys that interests me. See I am not here to offend them, but
>> why do
>> we need to use such harsh term for that. They were at the camp and
>> had
>> distributed what they had to, right ? And do you think adobe needs
>> promotion
>> ? Who does not know adobe first of all ?
>
>
> If Adobe distributed non-FOSS software then it is not acceptable and
> organizers are at fault in allowing this to happen.
Agreed. Software being distributed should be OSS
>
>> Before poking anyone like Romil Mittal, think he was a presenter
>> who spare
>> time for the community drove all the way from Noida to Dwarka, just
>> cause we
>> a bunch of organizers requested him to drop in.
>>
>> Xeba(i dun remember the exact name) had its logo on all the slides
>> of Scala
>> presentation, so do we poke them as well ? Dude I do not know what
>> you think
>> this camp to be, but what I believe is when you are talking in
>> terms of
>> building a community you should not be harsh and so very nazi.
>>
>> Regarding the slideshow in ppt format, what is the harm ? We cannot
>> restrict
>> people to use open source software for presenting at the camp ? Can
>> we ? And
>> if we are going to do that think we are spreading a wrong message
>> in the
>> community. We are a happy open source community who uses Open source
>
> We can restrict people to use specific format and it will not be
> harsh. If the presenters cant bother to install and use open source
> software they have absolutely *no* right to speak at the camp.
Let's think this thru. Isn't the goal of osscamp to further the cause
of OSS by being inclusive? Rather than restrict people, we should
strongly suggest that presenters use OSS but not require it.
By this pattern of thinking anyone not running Linux should not be
allowed to present. OSes like Apple OS X might be based on FreeBSD but
make no mistake, it's not open. So why allow those of us using Macs to
present?
>> software, we are not rigid bunch of jerks who tend to destroy
>> Microsoft &
>> its alike.
>>
>> Just need you to be calm on your reactions, coz you were among the
>> ones who
>> were taking interest in driving the camp. So people will tend to
>> follow you
>> and I am sure no one wants to be extremist , does any one ?
>
> It is not being exterimst but posing a restriction of no non-FOSS
> software is fair enough. What exactly is your problem, just to get
> audience you will let people do anything ? If people cant follow the
> open source philosohpy they need not come here. This is not some
> commercial venture. I will be happy not to see Adobe or any other big
> names if the they are going to promote non-FOSS software. Narendra is
> still forgiving for allowing presenters to run windows. I did not
> appreciate this.
> We are not here to baby feed anyone.. let the rules of the camp be
> known to everyone.
It's not about "getting an audience". It is about propogating the OSS
philosophy to the unenlightened. Again, I have contributed code to the
Perl community but I did my development on a Mac as did a few other
regulars at OSScamp. Should they all be banned from sharing their
knowledge and experience? Make strong recommendations but do not
restrict and ban people.
>
> BTW, pdf format should be acceptable because pdf as a format is not
> controlled by Adobe and there are FOSS based pdf readers and writers.
Please check this. I believe the PDF format IS in fact controlled by
Adobe though they haven't been heavy handed in allowing people to
write writers and readers without getting a license from them. The PDF
standard is not open to the community for discussion from what I
remember.
> regards
> Vivek
My suggestion is keep it open an suggestive and not restrictive so as
many as possible can benefit from the OSS philosophy.
Just my $.02. Let the flame throwers rejoice :-)
@Abhishek
+10
@Vivek
I am sad that you are getting misleaded. I would have appreciated your feedback, if you were present at the camp and had witnessed what had happened. Please dont be misled by Narendra's reactions.
@Realin
I agree with your points but do not agree with your pro-Adobe tone :)
If Adobe did anything wrong they will have to brave it. Though, In my opinion and understanding they didnt do anything wrong.
@Narendra
Dude, i read your mail and am now replying to it :P
Honestly, I have been very disappointed by the reactions you have made here. Seriously, these are reactions - not constructive criticism. Reactions, out of which I cannot find anything useful to be implemented.
Let me share share some concerns with you point by point.
First of all we should understand what the OSScamp Community is. We are not Ram Sena for FOSS, we are a bunch of passionate people who come together to create a platform for promoting open source. Open Source is technology neutral and unbiased towards what technology/Platform/Company products you are using - that is a personal choice the individual will make. We will try to play a role in educating them so that they make an informed choice. And I trust, that you would agree that everyone present at the camp was aware of the benefits of open source softwares over Closed Source Softwares.
When you ban/dissuade people from doing a certain activity, you create a resistance.
Personally, i dont want to do that. I dont want to walk up to people, looking like a wise guy, screaming aloud "You Fool! Use Free Software!" when they are aware of the benefits FOSS gives them over closed source. They have their reasons, excuses, whatever.
As far as using a Linux Laptop for running presentations is concerned, I totally agree with you. We should not be accidentally promoting things we do not believe in. I am glad that on Day 2 you managed to overcome this issue. I can only express my disappointment that you did not take the initiative of doing it on Day 1 as well.
When I say you, I mean anyone in the community. If everyone expects me to run around and do everything, I think they need to check out what a community means (I wish i could point to a good link here).
Secondly, about the presentation copyrights. Even though people were not carrying any creative commons licenses on their presentations (which, was in many cases due to ignorance for CC) or in that case, any License what-so-ever, the speakers voluntarily agreed to sharing presentations on slideshare. I guess, the voluntary act to share is more important than tagging a license and forgetting everything about it.
What I can never apprehend is your reaction on the Adobe Session. Speaking personally here: Adobe made a good presentation and did a lot of contribution to the event with the two sessions. Romil did make the mistake of calling Freeware Free Software, but as far as I remember he corrected it as well. I cannot imagine how an introductory session on Flex would begin without some talk on Flash. Just to reaffirm you, I discussed the "Flash-discussion" issue with the Adobe guys and told them that this was not preferable at all. You should lodge your opinions and criticism in the correct fashion. At the opportune moment you let Adobe do what they wanted to do (which was wrong according to you) and now you write mails that make no sense, are misleading and will only ensue a flame war. In my opinion this behavior is incorrect, inappropriate and disrespectful to the community. What is the point of doing an unconference, if you cannot stand up and say "Hey Adobe Guys! Don't promote Flash. Its not open source!" What is the point in cribbing about it afterwords?
As far as the distribution of Flex Builder is concerned. I remember Romil saying it is not a trial, its a Student Edition.
You need to be able to prove that you are a student to use the application without limitations. (Even Free Software can be sold, right?) If Adobe was really looking for promotion, they would have really wanted to do a distribution of stuff to developers, not students (this might be disputable). And if they promote an IDE to build promote Flex (an open source framework)
I guesswe successfulyl promoted some parts of open source ??
Another suggestion, when you start taking names and pointing fingers, please be correct about what you say - dont bring the community bad name for your irresponsible statements.
Scheduling is something that was a bit too unstructured. Lets plan out how to fix this issue. I am thinking of introducing tracks and themes for sessions and do parrallel sessions deliberately. We had 4 unsued halls at our disposal for this camp.
Also, everyone - a request: refrain from flaming/inflammatory mails - lets only have constructive discussion, no pointing fingers and name callings, lets be responsible :)I agree with the observations made by Pankaj.
Alright,
Then why not draft rules for FOSS before you call for a camp, right ? And if you say organizers are at the fault,
why not you be one ? Tell them what not to do before hand, instead of blaming them in the end.
And next time, please do not allow Windows OS or MAC inside the camp. Please do not be moderate at all, show them the real FOSS culture. I am sure that will bring lot more people to join camp :)
Rules of FOSS ? Isn't the FOSS ideology available openly since
1980's. No organizers cant be placed at fault, it is the carelessness
fo the campers. Had these things happend in any other FOSS event, the
speaker would have been shown the door. I appreciate teh tolerance of
organizrs in handling careless campers.
As of now, only outdated Tata indicom cards dont work and the data
cards from Reliance (which have never worked). Rest everything works.
As for your laptop, you could have asked for help and we would have
been happy to get it work on linux. I have ATI and Nvida cords working
under linux.
>
> * Using a Creative Commons license is up to an author and you can't
> force anyone to do it. Anyway, CC is just *one* way of going about
> doing it. An author may as well license it under his own terms which
> are permissive enough. As Kinshuk said, the act of giving it
> voluntarily is what matters here, not which of the dozens of licenses
> available was used.
>
> * Use of terminology - 'freeware' and 'free software' is often what
> people use interchangeably. FOSS community does not own the English
> language, so other people are free (as in speech, not beer) to attach
> whatever interpretations they want. I really do think it was a slip-of-
> tongue, since Romil apologized and corrected himself. What more do you
> want?
The question is not about English language here. The question is about
making people aware of the difference between Freeware and Free
software. If you let people accept freeware int eh name of Free
software then the whole purpose of Free software is defeated.Freedom
of speech doesnt mean you are free to make factual errors. You cant
use east and West interchangably, you will end up in the wrong
direction.
>
>
> Free / open source software ideology at its core is about intellectual
> property rights. Making ad-hominem attacks on someone or something
> purely because they have a different viewpoint is not the right thing
> to do. When it comes to free / open source vs closed source, most FOSS
> people leave it at "I am right and you are wrong" without going into
> 'Why' a software should be free / open source. That attitude doesn't
> help.
Those who ride on several boats do not end up anywhere. So it is
better to choose one side. As for why software should be open source,
there are so many rticles, debates, speeches on this on the internet.
Who says free software guys do not make it clear why software should
be Free. If you close your eyes and say its dark, that does not mean
its night.
* Whether you like it or not, PDF and PPTX are both ISO standards.
(Most of the presentations which weren't in ODP were in these two
formats.) It's up to the authors what they want to use.
* Using Windows (or a Mac for that matter) could have been necessary
in some cases. Some data cards work only in Windows. BTW, Narendra,
didn't you borrow any Adobe guy's laptop so that you could use his
data card to give a demo of the project?
I think you should remember
that. About using those Windows for presentations, you shouldn't judge
people people without first getting in touch with them why they
weren't using it. My laptop for instance has an ATI graphics card for
which the open source drivers don't work (it defaults to VESA);
proprietary fglrx works fine for desktop usage but things get screwed
when trying to connect to an external display. Delegating one laptop
for all presentations is a good idea, but presenters often have
software demos installed on their own laptops - by far almost all of
these were running a Linux distro. Those who did use Windows might
have been necessitated to use that by circumstances.
* Using a Creative Commons license is up to an author and you can't
force anyone to do it. Anyway, CC is just *one* way of going about
doing it. An author may as well license it under his own terms which
are permissive enough. As Kinshuk said, the act of giving it
voluntarily is what matters here, not which of the dozens of licenses
available was used.
* Use of terminology - 'freeware' and 'free software' is often what
people use interchangeably. FOSS community does not own the English
language, so other people are free (as in speech, not beer) to attach
whatever interpretations they want. I really do think it was a slip-of-
tongue, since Romil apologized and corrected himself. What more do you
want?
* BlazeDS is licensed under LGPL, Flex is licensed under MPL. So on
what grounds should Adobe presentations _not_ have been allowed?
Free / open source software ideology at its core is about intellectual
property rights. Making ad-hominem attacks on someone or something
purely because they have a different viewpoint is not the right thing
to do. When it comes to free / open source vs closed source, most FOSS
people leave it at "I am right and you are wrong" without going into
'Why' a software should be free / open source. That attitude doesn't
help.
hi guys,
though i was not in the camp, i totally agree with kinshuk. we can't
force anyone in the community to go by our rules.
instead we should show them the options available and make them feel why opensource is
better way. you cant pull our anyone from their comfort zone so
easily. neither we are the group of anti-microsoft people who just
hate windows and all its stuff. Just show the people in communtiy the
reasons to love OSS.
On Sep 7, 2:35 pm, Vivek Khurana <hiddenharm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Realin<real...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Alright,
>
> > Then why not draft rules for FOSS before you call for a camp, right ? And if
> > you say organizers are at the fault, why not you be one ? Tell them what not
> > to do before hand, instead of blaming them in the end.
>
> Rules of FOSS ? Isn't the FOSS ideology available openly since
> 1980's. No organizers cant be placed at fault, it is the carelessness
> fo the campers. Had these things happend in any other FOSS event, the
> speaker would have been shown the door. I appreciate teh tolerance of
> organizrs in handling careless campers.
>
> regards
> Vivek
>
> --
> The hidden harmony is better than the obvious!!
If we allow people to use non-FOSS tools then we are sending a
message that there is no difference in FOSs and non-FOSS tools. This
defeats the whole purpose of an osscamp. If we are going to allow
users to come and speak on anything and use anything, then let it be a
barcamp and lets not drag open source into this. Open source is a
different way of doing things and we ensure that non-FOSS tools are
kept outside the osscamp.
If we cant ensure this much, we should stop conducting OSSCAMP or may
be I should expect talks on windows7 and .NET in the next camp :)
_fact_:
as known by Narendra too - I gave my laptop for the demonstration of
Eduvid (and some talks on day one)- running CentOS on VMware over
Windows box - the reason is he needs Internet connection - which I
have on my OFFICE laptop (my bad)- (P.S. not ma personal LPT) -
because the ma data card of TATA-Indicom runs with windows
dialup :P... agali bar nahin dunga .. Maa Kasssaaam ! _seriously_
I cant understand why we want to be *goog boys* ? What is wrong in
saying things as is ? Nothing is wrong in using harsh words, atleast
they convey things properly. On a mailing list there is no way for the
other to understand your emotions, so using "pyar bhara words" will
only derail things.
>
> @narendra - I respect ur ~ RMS like views :) - nD will try to improve
> FOSS culture in next osscamps !
>
> @Kinshuk - WAHOO! - huge reply man !! :) +1
>
> _fact_:
> as known by Narendra too - I gave my laptop for the demonstration of
> Eduvid (and some talks on day one)- running CentOS on VMware over
> Windows box - the reason is he needs Internet connection - which I
> have on my OFFICE laptop (my bad)- (P.S. not ma personal LPT) -
> because the ma data card of TATA-Indicom runs with windows
> dialup :P... agali bar nahin dunga .. Maa Kasssaaam ! _seriously_
>
Which model of Tata indicom modem you have ? Most of them work on Linux.
@vivek you are taking me wrong. very wrong.... i didnt say that we should allow people to use non-FOSS tools and talks and make it a barcamp. DID I?
So what u want to do make a scene at osscamp. kick out anyone who comes with windows and using fuc** IE for accessing internet.
@narendra and what do u think? our community is so passionate about FOSS (atleast you are ..ur posts shows it all) ..how anyone can spoil the FOSS community...?
Dude i love it
Now u come to the point .. u can say that is simple words .. why were u writing such long essays...
OBHAISHAAB !!
okies .. okies !! ... so my _as_is_ harsh words are for U in frnt of
>What is wrong in
> saying things as is ? Nothing is wrong in using harsh words, atleast
> they convey things properly. On a mailing list there is no way for the
> other to understand your emotions, so using "pyar bhara words" will
> only derail things.
community :)
---------
vivek-- :P
---------
reason - tuned on day 2 with his dashing cam - just 2 meet IITK guys -
NOT FOR any OSS support or for OSSCAMP !!
and making LONG LONG comments ....saying _as_is_ words
@narendra
----------
narendra--
----------
reason - bhai agar itna hi foss idealism hai to u should not have used
the underlying layer - VMware(not XEN) - not a FOSS tool running over
Windows box!.. just because its your talk .. and u hv to promote
Eduvid ! .. why otherwise..??
saachayiii... kadvii hoti hai .. so my harsh words as is for you both
idiots ... jinkoo bar bar samjha rahe hai ki ...bhai situation ko
samjhoo.... just because we didnt' carried Linux boxes .. we should
have left the camp ... should not present ... doent' make sense!!
SEE the no. of guys - who are even not present at the camp - are
supporting and all talks are GOOD -- too GOOD !!
people loved that .. enjoyed the GYAN from the talks ... and if
running the ppts over windows ... too.. we PROMOTED OSS talks ..
Adobe Flex is open source too !
Who team has done a excellent work and nobody is denying that.
PS: I feel very suffocated now !!
On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Realin <rea...@gmail.com> wrote: